My 1st Nebula - M42/M43

[tingting44]

Hey guys just thought id share with you mainly my progress on AP stacking/wavelets/DSS etc,

Well a month ago now i imaged and viewed my 1st ever nebula M43/M42 i took about 7 subs ISO800 each exposed from around 8-15 secs (max i can obtain at present with no EQ mount and guiding )

i never even bothered about stacking as i was so chuffed with the best single sub, which is here...

Great Nebula in Orion - M43 {PS} by tingting44, on Flickr

then the other night i though mhh let me see what it looks like if i stacked the best out of the 7 subs is DSS, so in the end DSS ended up with 3 subs stacking out of the 7, had a little play with RGB etc in DSS and this is what i got from the single sub above...

m42 pre look by tingting44, on Flickr

then i saved as tiff and worked a little bit in PS at levels/curves/NR etc and got it looking a bit less noisy but maybe losing a bit of nebulosity along the way...and this is my latest version of processing my previous subs, so im defo progressing slowly but surely i think and am quite pleased i actually went back to the images and thought to re work them again

(i had to save the tiff as a jpeg to upload onto flickr as the tiff was too big, it looks a bit better in tiff view i think, but any hoo...)

Latest stack(4) attempt of M43-M43 (JPEG for WEBSITES) by tingting44, on Flickr

Martin

[Gina]

You've made a good start there, Martin Saving in PNG rather than JPEG is better - no data loss and no JPEG artefacts. Bit bigger file size though but nothing like as big as TIFF.

[Jannis]

Very good start indeed, and a quite nice m42 core.

Never let short exposures stop you. If you take enough you'll be surpriced by what you can get out if it.

I did just that experiment here the other day - where i used only a normal tripod instead of my HEQ5 mount, and a normal 50mm lens, just to see if it was even remotely possible with no astro gadgets at all - and it for sure is!

http://stargazerslou...with-50mm-lens/ (not too satisfied with my pic here, but it's just to demonstrate how much you can lover the noise with more frames, and how much more faint details you can drag out of teh final pic)

If you can get 8-15 sec before startrails, then you shuold be able to get a lot fo details out of this target if you stack enough frames. And noise will of course go way down.

For the 7D, as far as i know, the maximum analog ISO is 3200, so going higher then this would be pointless.

What i would do in your case;

1. disable high ISO noise reduction, and long exposure noise reduction in camera settings. (stacking removes the high ISO noise, and dark frames replace "long exposure noise reduction")

2. find the longest exposure lenght before startrails.

3 increase the ISO untill the histogram starts at around 1/4 to 1/3 from the left.

4. set camera to RAW (most of us have done that misstake at least once, lol), and take as many frames as possible. (don't forget to cover view-finder).

[Coco]

Good start...

[tingting44]

You've made a good start there, Martin Saving in PNG rather than JPEG is better - no data loss and no JPEG artefacts. Bit bigger file size though but nothing like as big as TIFF.

Hi gina, thank you that means a lot coming from you as some of your DSO work is just incredible from what ive seen on here

GREAT tip on the PNG i will try this evening and post up the PNG to see if it looks much better, thank you

Very good start indeed, and a quite nice m42 core.

Never let short exposures stop you. If you take enough you'll be surpriced by what you can get out if it.

I did just that experiment here the other day - where i used only a normal tripod instead of my HEQ5 mount, and a normal 50mm lens, just to see if it was even remotely possible with no astro gadgets at all - and it for sure is!

http://stargazerslou...with-50mm-lens/ (not too satisfied with my pic here, but it's just to demonstrate how much you can lover the noise with more frames, and how much more faint details you can drag out of teh final pic)

If you can get 8-15 sec before startrails, then you shuold be able to get a lot fo details out of this target if you stack enough frames. And noise will of course go way down.

For the 7D, as far as i know, the maximum analog ISO is 3200, so going higher then this would be pointless.

What i would do in your case;

1. disable high ISO noise reduction, and long exposure noise reduction in camera settings. (stacking removes the high ISO noise, and dark frames replace "long exposure noise reduction")

2. find the longest exposure lenght before startrails.

3 increase the ISO untill the histogram starts at around 1/4 to 1/3 from the left.

4. set camera to RAW (most of us have done that misstake at least once, lol), and take as many frames as possible. (don't forget to cover view-finder).

Hey jannis, thank you also for your kind words, id love more detail other then just the core with some color in there, but i guess the core is only bright enough to grab photon's at exposure's of max 15 seconds then (with 4 subs) im going to try as many subs as possible next time i can and see if i can get more out of this lovely nebula, can i add to this current stack if i gain more data in the future then i guess...

ahh bummer cant get that link of yours to work for some reason

Thank you Jannis for them tips also! all digested and i ALL ways forget to blooming put the view finder cover on the DSLR grhhhh i really need to start getting in the habbit of doing this lol

Very interesting tips about the 7D setting!!! i will disable ISO NR and LE NR thank you for that and i allways shoot in RAW, really some lovely tips here Jannis

Good start...

Thank you Coco, only onward's and upwards from here i hope then lol

Just need to learn how to collimate after messing my scope up even more now after trying collimation....DOH! im sure it will all click into place soon,

[Jannis]

You can add and combine data, yes, but it might be more difficult then just taking a few extra frames. To begin with at least, when we're talking about only a few minutes worth of data, i don't think i would go for it.

10-15 sec shuold be more then enough to catch a lot more of the faint stuff, but you need to increase the ISO to capture it as you're limited to short exposures, and then take many frames to lower the noise enough so you can pull out the details.

Note that M42 is hard to capture, because capturing both the core and the faint stuff at once is nerly impossible. Most people use at least 2, sometimes 3 different exposures stacked together to keep the core from burning out.

So basically to capture the fainter stuff, you'll have to increase the ISO or exposure untill it shows up, and ignore that the core is getting burned out (as you'll need separate shorter exposures to fix that later anyway)

Have to mention though, that magic lantern firmware have been the most useful (and free) tool i've ever had for my camera when it comes to astro-imaging - for several reasons, but the main two for me are:

1. It can boost live-view sensitivity to clearly show for example M31, M42 or M45 in live-view. This is very useful to find/frame targets quickly.

2. no need for timer or remote anymore, you will have the timer/remote in the camera itself. Also with mirror lockup and delay before taking pics to prevent shaking, and can be programmed to take as many pics as you'd like.

You install/use it at your own risk though, but i've never had any problems with the latest verson, and it's also nothing i've been more happy to have on my camera then that.

Some like it, some don't. But might be worth looking into if you didn't allready know about it.

[tingting44]

nice, yeah dont suppose its worth the hassle is it adding to a stacked sub of only 4 subs @ about 10 secs each sub, not even 1 mintues worth lol the trouble i have is actually finding the nebula's 99% of the time i enter the Messier on the synscan handset let it slew to it and take a long exposure to see if anything is there, the only time this has worked is when i typed in M43/M42 all the others just comes up with normal stars, i might just try using my x2 SW barlow without the barlow to make it into a standard extender so hopefully ill get a lot more in view and be able to spot the nebula's more with the GOTO mount

thanks for the info on the different exposure subs also, i have tried this on jupiter, exposing 1 batch for the planet itself (in my avator pic) and exposiing another batch of subs for the moons that were on show, but i have yet to merge them together, thats another thing i need to learn lol

yeah ive heard loads about magic lantern about people getting virus's or corrupting the DSLR, im not quite sure id like to do it to my 7D as thats my day time camera i cant believe i got rid of my 1000D i had ages ago i would have loved to convert that purely for AP so my 7D wont keep getting left out in the elements for so long and collecting dew on the camera itself (really scares me) and id cry if it broke lol, thinking about that how does CCD's cope with the element's (dew) being out for soooo long

i have to say i am interested in magic lantern after your review Jannis

[Gina]

Astro CCDs are sealed and have desiccant to reduce internal humidity so that they can get to very low temperatures without condensation. The bodies are anodised aluminium and that stands up well to even salt laden environments. The make yacht masts from amodised aluminium. So astro cameras are pretty hardy beasties Unlike DSLRs that are made down to a price!

[Jannis]

Virus from ML? That can't be... At least not if downloaded from their official site. Would have been noticed almost instantly and been removed.

Corrupt DSLR can in theory happen, but if you're using a stable release, and the latest one of course, instead of a beta verson, you're pretty much safe. I have never tried it on the 7D though, so can't say too much about that.

It also won't affect the camera itself, as it runs as a program from the memory card. So basically by formatting the card or using a different card, you have "removed" ML from the camera.

I've had camera lockup a few times over the last 3 years, but it turned out that in fact it was both of my memory cards that had become broken and very unstable.

But of course, there IS a possible risk with ML, so if you don't feel good about it, don't use it...

When it comes to finding the target, just set it to ISO12800 and 1 sec exposure or so and you shuold be able to clearly see where it is. When it's framed properly, lower the ISO to 3200 or below, and set exposure lenght back to what you planned.

But yeah, if target is way off, it's often a nightmare to find out where you are in the sky, lol. >_<

I was so happy when i got my green lazer to show me instantly and exactly where i was on the sky - only to find out when the season came that it doesn't work in cold weather...

I don't exactly understand what you mean by the barlow? By taking out the lens in it, you're only making an extension tube - you still won't increase the field of view...?

Unless you used the barlow when you took these pics? In that case, yes, it would sure help...

[tingting44]

ahhhhhhh im drewling over the CCD info loool they really are awsome arnt they hopefully in a year or 2 ill be able to afford a nice imaging setup and when im a lot more clued up

[tingting44]

Virus from ML? That can't be... At least not if downloaded from their official site. Would have been noticed almost instantly and been removed.

Corrupt DSLR can in theory happen, but if you're using a stable release, and the latest one of course, instead of a beta verson, you're pretty much safe. I have never tried it on the 7D though, so can't say too much about that.

It also won't affect the camera itself, as it runs as a program from the memory card. So basically by formatting the card or using a different card, you have "removed" ML from the camera.

I've had camera lockup a few times over the last 3 years, but it turned out that in fact it was both of my memory cards that had become broken and very unstable.

But of course, there IS a possible risk with ML, so if you don't feel good about it, don't use it...

When it comes to finding the target, just set it to ISO12800 and 1 sec exposure or so and you shuold be able to clearly see where it is. When it's framed properly, lower the ISO to 3200 or below, and set exposure lenght back to what you planned.

But yeah, if target is way off, it's often a nightmare to find out where you are in the sky, lol. >_<

I was so happy when i got my green lazer to show me instantly and exactly where i was on the sky - only to find out when the season came that it doesn't work in cold weather...

I don't exactly understand what you mean by the barlow? By taking out the lens in it, you're only making an extension tube - you still won't increase the field of view...?

Unless you used the barlow when you took these pics? In that case, yes, it would sure help...

ohh i like the ML only installs on a memory card, thats nice so if it does go wrong i could just like you say format the card then id be back to normal i like the sound of this

thanks also i will up the iso to max then on my dslr i can up it to 25600 so it should help with finding them photons

ohh noo why does your laser not work when its cold, that is a complete night mare isnt it

yes i have to normally shoot every pic with the x2 barlow in to gain prime focus, so the barlow all ways needs to be attatched to dslr no matter what, but i just learnt the barlow lens can be unscrewed so will be using it as an extension tube so i can gain focus, and i should have x2 more view in theory right

i cant wait to learn collimating now so i can get my scope back up and running and start trying to image more nebula

[Jannis]

Oh btw, about dew on camera; if it's very cold where you are, make sure to remove memory card and battery first, then put camera in a sealed plastic bag (or box) before you take it inside in the heat.

That way you limit the chance of internal condensation in the camera. Don't open the bag/box before it have warmed up properly.

And with the removed battery, even a little condensation in the camera won't do any harm as long as you allow camera to dry completly before inserting the battery. I usually let camera dry at least overnight, maybe longer if it happend to get really moist.

Usually no problem anyway, but better safe then sorry. Especially with a 7D wich isn't exactly cheap.

[adamsp123]

well done!

[Jannis]

ohh i like the ML only installs on a memory card, thats nice so if it does go wrong i could just like you say format the card then id be back to normal i like the sound of this

thanks also i will up the iso to max then on my dslr i can up it to 25600 so it should help with finding them photons

ohh noo why does your laser not work when its cold, that is a complete night mare isnt it

yes i have to normally shoot every pic with the x2 barlow in to gain prime focus, so the barlow all ways needs to be attatched to dslr no matter what, but i just learnt the barlow lens can be unscrewed so will be using it as an extension tube so i can gain focus, and i should have x2 more view in theory right

i cant wait to learn collimating now so i can get my scope back up and running and start trying to image more nebula

In 99.9% of the cases, if anything happends (wich is very unlikely and uncommon in the first place), you can just remove/format/change the memory card, yes.

There is always a theoretical chance of permanently crashing the camera's firmware by overriding it with ML, but the chances are microscopic. Especially if you only use the commonly used things like timer, increased live-view exposure and so on.

Forgot that you can set the 7D to 25600 by standards, but of course, you can use that then. That ISO is only available on the 550D with ML. Useless ISO in general anyway, but perfect for finding and framing an object.

About the laser, it's common that green lasers requires temperatures to work, so when i took it out in -10c for example, it stopped working after 5-10 min. Would need something like a heating strap for it to keep it warm.

But about your focus - isn't your problem that you don't have enough inward travel to reach focus? Normally that's the DSLR focus problem, and not that you don't get enough outward movement.

Normally people with your problem need to change out the focuser to a low-profile focuser to overcome that problem. I don't think an extension tube would solve your problem, but i could be wrong though.

[tingting44]

Oh btw, about dew on camera; if it's very cold where you are, make sure to remove memory card and battery first, then put camera in a sealed plastic bag (or box) before you take it inside in the heat.

That way you limit the chance of internal condensation in the camera. Don't open the bag/box before it have warmed up properly.

And with the removed battery, even a little condensation in the camera won't do any harm as long as you allow camera to dry completly before inserting the battery. I usually let camera dry at least overnight, maybe longer if it happend to get really moist.

Usually no problem anyway, but better safe then sorry. Especially with a 7D wich isn't exactly cheap.

VERY nice tip on putitng the dslr into a plastic bag!!! i will defo be doing this in future! i would like to take every precaution on my 7D as i saved hard for it and be gutted if it got murdered by dew lol well atleast till i can afford to by another 1000D back (WHY DID I SELL IT! DOH!)

well done!

Thanks adam its so exciting when you see a single sub which is like a smudge...then you do this fasinating thing called "stacking" and you just end up with your mouth open thinking WOW lol its actually working! lol

Martin

In 99.9% of the cases, if anything happends (wich is very unlikely and uncommon in the first place), you can just remove/format/change the memory card, yes.

There is always a theoretical chance of permanently crashing the camera's firmware by overriding it with ML, but the chances are microscopic. Especially if you only use the commonly used things like timer, increased live-view exposure and so on.

Forgot that you can set the 7D to 25600 by standards, but of course, you can use that then. That ISO is only available on the 550D with ML. Useless ISO in general anyway, but perfect for finding and framing an object.

About the laser, it's common that green lasers requires temperatures to work, so when i took it out in -10c for example, it stopped working after 5-10 min. Would need something like a heating strap for it to keep it warm.

But about your focus - isn't your problem that you don't have enough inward travel to reach focus? Normally that's the DSLR focus problem, and not that you don't get enough outward movement.

Normally people with your problem need to change out the focuser to a low-profile focuser to overcome that problem. I don't think an extension tube would solve your problem, but i could be wrong though.

Thanks a lot Jannis, i think i will try and find any reviews from 7D user's to be sure i think, must be an easy google search, so ill let ya know if i do attempt to go down the ML route, i am how ever liking the added additions"!

yeah your right iso 25600 is just awful, i dont tend to go over 1600/3200 and like you say the iso25600 actually has a good job now, which is grabbing enough of them pesky photon's to appear on the live view mwahahaha

Am i see with your laser, not good for cold clear nights lol is that just with the green lasers then, or all lasers?

funny you mention the focus on my 130p...a couple of people have said the same thing, but i can not gain focus without the barlow, its strange......with the barlow on i gain focus lovely, so what ever that is...be it in or out focus (i get mixed up on this lol) thats what it is

done in all ready for today :@( most likely fall asleep in a mo lol

[Jannis]

note that dew Will gather in teh bag though, but it will gather on the inside of the bag instead of the inside of the camera. Camera will also get a little dew, as it's impossible to prevent completly. But most of it will be only on the outside of the camera and inside of the bag like that. So when you bring it in and bag suddenly gets all wet inside - don't worry, it's intended to work like that. Once heated up a little, take the camera out and let5 it dry completly.

The laser, yes, it's mostly just green ones that are affected in cold weather. There are others too, but for astro use we normally just use red or green anyway. Red is not affected in that way, but the problem with those is that they need to be a Lot stronger then the green ones in order to see the beam in the night.

This is my 5mw green laser, in a not really very dark place at all. Just to demonstrate how easy it is to know Exactly where you are in the sky when you use this on the scope and have them aligned 100%.

When you're able to achive focus with the barlow, it's not because camera gets futher away from scope, but because the lens in the barlow lets you. It won't therefor work to remove the lens in the barlow, as that would only work if you had to get futher away from the scope. Mostly that's only when using webcams and so.

The explorer PDS scopes, instead of just the P models, have a different focuser that normally allows most DSLR to achive focus, as well as a fine-tuning knob. Also to help reach focus the morrors are put slightly different, but i don't remember exactly what the difference was.

Buit basically what you probably need is a low-profile focuser. But when it comes to wich ones, and how to change it, i have really no idea.

Also, of course, removing the barlow not only reduces the focal lenght by half, it also gives you 1 f-stop more light, meaning you only need half the exposure time to gather just as much light - wich is very good when you're limited to short exposures.