Picture Style settings , Standard or Neutral ?

[Steve Ward]

Evening all ,

We all shoot in RAW with our various DSLR's , as it allegedly gives us what was actually captured by the chip with no additives or compression .

But the "Picture Style" setting must make a difference as you can choose a variety of options from the menu .

I've always shot in "Standard" mode because it was the default , but a quick flick through the "book" shows that the "Neutral" setting is aimed at those "who prefer to process images with their personal computer"

There are various parameters that can be adjusted , Sharpness , Contrast , Saturation and Colour tone.

Surely any adjustments made here in the camera negate the RAW claim ?

There doesn't appear to be a real " What the chip collected " setting to be had , the RAW setting appears to me to be more a measure of Compression !

I'm going to spend the next clear one trying a selection of settings , as you do ,

I'd love to hear of any previous similar comparisons ,

Steve.

[Photosbykev]

I always shoot in standard mode and Adobe RGB colour. When you process the Raw file you can change all these settings but Adobe RGB colour has a wider colour range than sRGB so in theory more information is captured in Adobe RGB but you do have to remember to convert to sRGB before posting images online

[Steve Ward]

There's a big difference in the subs between Standard and Neutral though .

Standard setting , 300s @ ISO400.

Neutral setting ,300s @ ISO 400,

I'm not sure which is better really , it was a nasty moonwashed night to be trying this but there seems a bit more dustlane in the neutral ?

I think I need to investigate further .

Steve.

[Gina]

Is that from the RAW? Because those images are JPEG.

[Steve Ward]

Hi Gina ,

Both single subs shot in RAW just reduced in size and jpg'd to attach.

Steve.

[GlassWalker]

The picture styles applies to camera jepgs, and any raw conversion software that cares to honour it if not otherwise overridden. The raw file does contain the "raw" sensor data, along with the settings which would be used (or ignored) later. There is always a question of how "raw" the raw data is, but picture style is not believed to be cooked in.

[Steve Ward]

Both those subs were shot in RAW and have not been adjusted apart from size , they are what the camera recorded in two different PicStyle settings , i.e. the camera makes adjustments to "RAW" files before downloading them to the laptop.

So how do I know which is best , the standard with the increased sharpness and contrast , or the neutral which appears to be more "raw" and untampered with ?

Steve.

[GlassWalker]

What raw conversion software are you using? Again, the raw data should be practically the same, with the styles settings stored as side data in the file. If your software allows you to manually pick a picture style after (you override the raw settings), you should get the same output for both files.

[Steve Ward]

Here's the shooting info of both subs.

Standard.

File Name IMG_0007.CR2

Camera Model Canon EOS 1000D

Firmware Firmware Version 1.0.7

Shooting Date/Time 02/11/2012 20:12:42

Owner's Name

Shooting Mode Manual Exposure

Tv( Shutter Speed ) 300

Av( Aperture Value ) 0.0

Metering Mode Evaluative Metering

ISO Speed 400

Image Size 3888x2592

Image Quality RAW

Flash Off

White Balance Mode Auto

AF Mode Manual focusing

Picture Style Standard

Sharpness 7

Contrast 4

Saturation 0

Color tone 0

Color Space sRGB

Long exposure noise reduction 0:Off

High ISO speed noise reduction 0:Off

File Size 8877KB

Dust Delete Data No

Drive Mode Single shooting

Camera Body No. 3550623644

Comment

Neutral.

File Name IMG_0008.CR2

Camera Model Canon EOS 1000D

Firmware Firmware Version 1.0.7

Shooting Date/Time 02/11/2012 20:18:02

Owner's Name

Shooting Mode Manual Exposure

Tv( Shutter Speed ) 320

Av( Aperture Value ) 0.0

Metering Mode Evaluative Metering

ISO Speed 400

Image Size 3888x2592

Image Quality RAW

Flash Off

White Balance Mode Auto

AF Mode Manual focusing

Picture Style Neutral

Sharpness 0

Contrast 0

Saturation 0

Color tone 0

Color Space sRGB

Long exposure noise reduction 0:Off

High ISO speed noise reduction 0:Off

File Size 8908KB

Dust Delete Data No

Drive Mode Single shooting

Camera Body No. 3550623644

Comment

Steve.

[Photosbykev]

It will be your conversion software Steve, you can change to any picture style and colour temperature you like in the conversion software before outputting the jpg or tiff. If you don't alter the setting in the conversion software the images will be converted with the embedded style.

I would also use a manual colour temperature setting rather than auto WB

[Steve Ward]

I convert them to TIFF's in DPP if required , for DSO's I load the RAW files straight into DSS , for my solar shots I convert to TIFF for Registax .

Steve.

[Photosbykev]

I convert them to TIFF's in DPP if required , for DSO's I load the RAW files straight into DSS , for my solar shots I convert to TIFF for Registax .

Steve.

In DPP you can change the style before conversion, I see what you mean about DSS because I assume that will just use the embedded style

[GlassWalker]

Here's a quick test to illustrate what I'm trying to say. I took three photos in manual without intentionally moving the camera. The only variable was the picture style, where I used standard, neutral and monochrome. In the top you see how Canon DPP shows them, which is representative of the camera preview also.

Below that, you'll see how Google Picasa sees it. Picasa doesn't seem to care about the picture style data, and all three images look practically identical at 100%.

Canon DPP by default does use the picture style, since it is trying to give you the result. The conversion is cooking it from the raw data. For astro use, that isn't really useful, and you could do with more basic processing.

[Steve Ward]

The only thing I see that I can adjust in DPP is the ICC profile , embed or not , the picture style setting is in the RAW file and the TIFF too.

I'm getting confused now ,

Steve.

[Photosbykev]

The ICC Profile will be the colour space profile you are using in your camera, in your case sRGB

[GlassWalker]

I never found DPP to be very intuitive in its interface. With a raw open, if you go to the View menu and select "Tool Palette", it will give you extra controls. One of those is picture style, so you can choose what you want regardless of the camera setting.

[Steve Ward]

That's the only change I can make when converting in DPP apart from file type.

Therefore the RAW file has been recorded in a particular setting , ie Standard , Neutral or whatever.

If I'm going to be processing I want the basic data to start with , I can adjust contrast , sharpness etc myself in Gimp ( too tight for PS . . . )

I shall set a custom style with everything in the middle slider-wise and have a play , I guess RAW ain't really raw RAW . . . .

Steve.

PS the RAW files are about 9Mb , the TIFF files are 59MB ?

Steve

[GlassWalker]

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, the picture style is not fixed in RAW. Don't blame the RAW file for what DPP is doing with it afterwards. Above is a screenshot of the appropriate window in DPP where it can be changed. If you want a no fuss conversion for further processing elsewhere, DPP isn't the best tool to use. dcraw is probably the safest choice if you don't mind using the command line. Other astro tools often use it as their converter and present a better interface, like the non-free PixInsight.

59MB for a 1000D uncompressed TIF sounds about right (10MP at 2 bytes (16 bits) per pixel for 3 channels = about 60MB). Canon raw files are smaller as they are either 12 or 14 bit, and only have to store 10MP since it's before de-bayer processing. It may also make use of lossless compression (like a ZIP file).

[Steve Ward]

Ah , I see now . . . . . . never looked in there before , apologies .

Time to start playing some more and maybe even reading some user manuals . . .

Thanks ,

Steve.