TMB Signature Series Apo

[jcm]

My telescope uses TMB optics , its the 130mm F6. It was put together by A&M telescopes of Italy.

The test report is English on one side and Russian on the other. So I assume it was manufactured in Russia???

John

PS - I assume unless you have paperwork (test report) with the telescope giving some clue ( Russian , Japanese etc) it must be impossible to tell the manufacturing source. There does not seem to be a clue on the lens.

[Cloudwatcher]

KaStern,you are clearly a man on a mission and I wish you luck. I just wonder if your quest is worth your time and effort.

Why is it vital that the country of origin be established?

We live in a global economy where production and distribution borders have become blurred. Tracing a product from raw

material to finished item is a thankless task and could well prove impossible for the individual.

Assuming the end product is fit for purpose and barring the use of slave or child labour, I, for one, would not care if it were made in Azerbaijan,Zaire or anywhere in between.

If you intend to persue this matter further with our American cousins I would,with respect,suggest a less 'bullish' approach.

In my experience they are polite and considerate folk who do not respond well to,as they say,being given the third degree.

Anyway, enough of that. It was good seeing last night. I'm in a good mood and intend to turn to lighter subjects. Give it a try.

Best Wishes,

CW

[KaStern_Former_Member]

Hello Cloudwatcher,

Why is it vital that the country of origin be established?

it is a big point because we have two statements about the country of origin wich differ strongly:

Markus Ludes stated that the lenses are made (grinded, polished) in Taiwan:

Karsten

die Linsen werden in Taiwan hergestellt!

--------------------

viele grüße

Markus Ludes

http://forum.astronomie.de/phpapps/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php/Cat/0/Number/515729/page/0/vc/1

On the other hand it was said that T.M.Back wrote in the TMB Yahoo Forum that the lens are made in Japan.

(Sorry, no link available, I am no Yahoo member.)

One of this statements is obviously untrue.

You wrote:

We live in a global economy where production and distribution borders have become blurred. Tracing a product from raw

material to finished item is a thankless task and could well prove impossible for the individual.

Assuming the end product is fit for purpose and barring the use of slave or child labour, I, for one, would not care if it were made in Azerbaijan,Zaire or anywhere in between.

I am not going to discuss political or ethical points. But I admit that they might be worth some thought too...

Spending 4000 USD for a scope I would want to know where it is made before I buy,

because that effects the money I will get for it when I sell the scope. I makes some 100 USD difference.

Quality:

Well, all the Japanese items I own or have owned were made quite good.

Japanese manufacturers seem to try to deliver only parts that are made to the specs.

There are only rare complaints about quality issues with japanese Apo.

There are russian optics wich prove that they are made to the specs

by an individually interferometric test report coming with the optics.

What about taiwanese optics?

No test report supplied. There were some complaints about optical quality,

but there were reports from delighted users too.

I am not going to say that all of them are flawed, I only say that I think

there might be a bigger risk to get one of these.

And where no specs are quaranteed you cannot claim that the scope

does no reach the specs and you want to give it back for that reason.

One point that makes me nervous:

If the optics is made inJapan, why not tell this on the TMBoptics website

or the vendors websites? Why not print it onto the lenscell?

As long as they do not tell straight ahead, so everyone can read that,

where the optics of the scope is made it might be made anywhere, Japan, Taiwan, China, ...

And this might even change over the times.

I checked all of my astro equipment and found not one wich did not tell the country of origin.

All of these are made since globalisation had allready begun.

In the new times there were "fluorite" apo without fluorite cristal lens in the objectiv,

the lens was "only" made from FPL glass.

"Fluorite" sells more expensive than "ED" or "SD" glass...

There was a "semi-apo" with only normal flint and crown glass in it.

The term "semi apo" is not well-defined, so it was not violating the laws,

but is was a lousy thing to discover.

I am not willing to support that sort of "kiddiing the buyers",

I am an old fashioned guy that wants to read about true facts.

In the last month I read that the discussion about "Apos" narrowed

more and more to the question if there is FPL 53 Glass in it.

Some people on CN seems to think that this is how to make a superb apo.

But there has to be much more to build a superb objectiv;

- the glass has to be with very litle bubbles in it

- it has to be clear and homogen

- the refraction index of all three glass types has to be right

- the spaces

- the lens radii

- very smooth lens polish

- good mechanics too: rigid lens cell, temperature compensated

- good focusser

- baffles, and they have to be placed correctly

- some other things too

So all in all there are many things, and QC has to discover the bad scopes before theey are delivered.

Regards,Karsten

[KaStern_Former_Member]

Hello Ant,

Let me know and I'll phone them tomorrow for you and ask the question! Thats got to be the easiest way to find out!

good idea! Even better if you try to get a written answer from them and the permission to post it here in the forum.

Regards,Karsten

[Cloudwatcher]

Hi again, Karsten,

I may have missed a point in this thread.

To set my mind at ease can you please clarify your position vis-a-vis the type of scope in question?

Are you the owner of a Signature Series TMB scope or are/were you contemplating the purchase of same?

If the former is the case and assuming you have found time to use it,are you not happy with the performance?

Were you to be only contemplating purchase, then, in view of you obvious feelings of disquiet, would it not be

in your best interests,if only for your peace of mind, to look to another manufacturer of quality who will answer

such issues as you choose to raise? Tele-Vue Optics or Takahashi of Japan spring to mind.

CW

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

If I were to spend $4000 US on a 'scope, I wouldn't be bothered over $100 US change in resale value when I sold it, I'd want to think that I would keep it a little while. $4000 US is a whole pile of money to me so I'd go for a Tak. or something similar if I had any doubt about the alternative. I think the bottom line is that if you are not confident that you will like it when you buy it, then other people will feel the same if you try to sell it later.

So you answered you're own question, I think, don't buy it. There must be another supplier of something similar for a lot less money, like the new Skywatcher Equinox series perhaps?

Captain Chaos

[gsjag]

Or best option of all (in my opinion) is to get Markus Ludes to source you a good Zeiss APQ. Based upon all the reviews and statements from expert dealers, nothing can beat them, not even an Astro Physics. Worth thinking about.

[KaStern_Former_Member]

Hello CW,

To set my mind at ease can you please clarify your position vis-a-vis the type of scope in question?

after hearing that there will be a TMB "made in Japan" I was thinking

that the smaller version wich is announced would be a scope for me.

I have family in the USA and they could bring me a scope when they

visit germny next time.

But since there is the statement of M.L. that the lens is "made in Taiwan"

I am uncertain if it would be a good option for me if he is right.

I am not saying he is.

So I want to have this clear before buying. Since the Designer and the

Vendor avoid a clear statement where the lens is made I tried to get this

information by asking for owner`s feedback. Until now there was no one

who could tell me the country of origin.

I agree to you, under these circumstances that I will have to look for other

scopes besides the mystery-scopes-from-nowhere.

Hi Captain,

If I were to spend $4000 US on a 'scope, I wouldn't be bothered over $100 US change in resale value when I sold it,

ähm, 1 hundred difference in resale price between a japanese and

a taiwanese or a chinese apo seem "a little bit optimistic" to me.

There are some scopes like Zeiss, AP, Takahashi, Televue, that hold

their values pretty good.

Even the russian TMB with zygo certificate do not loose very much resale value.

Hello gsjag

Or best option of all (in my opinion) is to get Markus Ludes to source you a good Zeiss APQ. Based upon all the reviews and statements from expert dealers, nothing can beat them, not even an Astro Physics. Worth thinking about.

APQ certainly is a dreamscope, but the prices are astronomically high :shock:

If I had the money, I would try to get one. Baader might have some of them left.

CS,Karsten

[Black Shuck]

Spending 4000 USD for a scope I would want to know where it is made before I buy,

because that effects the money I will get for it when I sell the scope. I makes some 100 USD difference.

Hi Captain,

If I were to spend $4000 US on a 'scope, I wouldn't be bothered over $100 US change in resale value when I sold it,

ähm, 1 hundred difference in resale price between a japanese and

a taiwanese or a chinese apo seem "a little bit optimistic" to me.

Hi Karsten,

I think the Capt was quoting your valuation figures??

Hope you get sorted soon

Bill£

[Cloudwatcher]

[quote. I agree to you, under these circumstances that I will have to look for other

scopes besides the mystery-scopes-from-nowhere.quote]

Nun da eine idea mein friend ist!

CW

[KaStern_Former_Member]

Hi ho CW,

just saw your sentence:

I would,with respect,suggest a less 'bullish' approach.

Hehe, "bullish, that fits perfectly to the "cowardish" thread-closing and deletenig manners there

Cheers, Karsten

[gsjag]

Just for some background reading:

http://www.tmboptical.com/documents/tmbFAQ.pdf

[KaStern_Former_Member]

Hello Gneiss,

one of the best designers?

I cannot talk about that, because I do not know one designer personally.

Do you know him, and other optical designers, do you have the knowledge

to judge about their excellence? Me not.

Designing the optics is one thing, manufacturing is the other thing.

I know about some TMB apo, and I have looked through 3 different TMB apos,

all of these optics were made in Russia. I found no reason to complain about them.

Concerning the signature series I like to ask the following:

Who is the manufacturer?

Where is it manufactured?

To wich specs is it manufactured?

What about quality control?

Lots of questions, but no answers in the net, where I could find them.

The best garantee you have is the reputation of the company

What company? I know 3 superb russian TMB designed Apos,

and 2 bad chinese TMB designed planetary eyepieces.

Had the origin of these parts something to do with the performance?

Or was it the specs they were made to?

Or was it the quality control?

The russian TMB apos came with a zygo interferogram.

Seems as if this is a valiable proof of both quality and quality control, or not?!

CS,Karsten

[John]

I'm not sure why but this thead seems to have got a little "stressed" at times

As I said in an earlier post, if anyone is not happy with the information available on a product and the response that the supplier / manufacturer comes up with does not satisfy then vote with your feet - take you business elsewhere - I think that's what they call market forces

John