Andromeda Galaxy Blueshift

[starrdad]

It is thought that the Andromeda Galaxy is moving towards the Milky Way. Does anyone know any supporting evidence for this, aside from the Blue shifting? If this thread gets closed down for some reason Christian forums in the physical science area has a thread about there not being a homogeneous universe...where discussion could continue.

[E621Keith]

Doppler shift is a very well developed way to determine velocity. It is used every day in radar and sonar.

Parallax method doesn't work at intergalactic distance, and star brightness measurement probably does not have sufficient accuracy to measure velocity.

[ollypenrice]

Do you need more than the blueshift? Other nearby galaxies are, I think, also blueshifted.

Olly

[starrdad]

Doppler shift is a very well developed way to determine velocity. It is used every day in radar and sonar.

Parallax method doesn't work at intergalactic distance, and star brightness measurement probably does not have sufficient accuracy to measure velocity.

Would C be involved in determining the velocity by any chance?

[starrdad]

Do you need more than the blueshift? Other nearby galaxies are, I think, also blueshifted.

Olly

So I take it you are saying nothing else exists, in this case, and you feel comfortable enough with that.

[Shibby]

Would C be involved in determining the velocity by any chance?

Speed of light? It's involved in the calculation of red/blueshift, yes. See the wikipedia article for the formulae.

So I take it you are saying nothing else exists, in this case, and you feel comfortable enough with that.

It's virtually impossible to observe any motion of distant galaxies, so nothing is as reliable or accurate as the Doppler effect for measuring their velocity.

[starrdad]

Speed of light? It's involved in the calculation of red/blueshift, yes. See the wikipedia article for the formulae.

OK, so then the claims are based on our light and laws existing as we know them here, way out there.

It's virtually impossible to observe any motion of distant galaxies, so nothing is as reliable or accurate as the Doppler effect for measuring their velocity.

So all measurements are only as good as the assumption that light and laws are the same...interesting.

[SteveL]

Oh I can see where this thread is going and how its going to end....

[RobH]

OK, so then the claims are based on our light and laws existing as we know them here, way out there.

So all measurements are only as good as the assumption that light and laws are the same...interesting.

It's not assumption, it's well known tried and tested fact.

Do some research into the history of scientific discovery....you'll find it very interesting and enlightening.

Try starting with Newtons laws of motion.

[beamish]

SIGH

Look can everyone just agree with Stardad and let him on his merry way ! lets face it why should we believe the laws of fizzixs ??

The rest of the Universe is NOT rushing away from us, black holes are really white and the world will end on October 21st

[inksmithy]

...um.

Just in case it is a genuine question and not tolling, the laws you are referring to aren't human laws, or made up, they are solid, verifiable observable facts.

They don't just work because we wish they did, they work despite our best efforts.

On the other hand, if you are tolling here in the hopes of converting amateur scientists into followers of a magical undead multiple personality sufferer with a god complex, I would suggest giving up and going away.

Personally, I'm fairly secure with my belief structure and while I can't speak for anyone else, I think everyone else is too.

I won't be responding further, but you have a lovely day.

Alan

[jamespels]

To continue with inksmithy's optimism for now, Andromeda is pretty close in universal terms (it is part of the "local" group of galaxies) so "out there" really isn't that far off. Observations of galaxies a lot further away than Andromeda appear to be bound by the same rules so there is certainly nothing to suggest that Andromeda would be in a region with different physical laws.

In science, very few things are certain but theories such as the application of the Doppler effect to long range observations that have stood the test of time and analysis by many esteemed researchers can be considered pretty reliable. In Andromeda's case, the Doppler effect is also backed up by observations of red- and blue-shift of different parts of the galaxy that clearly illustrate the galaxy's spin so we have a pretty good confirmation that nothing unexpected is going on.

[starrdad]

Oh I can see where this thread is going and how its going to end....

Guess that covers it then.

[starrdad]

It's not assumption, it's well known tried and tested fact.

Do some research into the history of scientific discovery....you'll find it very interesting and enlightening.

Try starting with Newtons laws of motion.

You are wrong. Prove it.

[starrdad]

SIGH

Look can everyone just agree with Stardad and let him on his merry way ! lets face it why should we believe the laws of fizzixs ??

The rest of the Universe is NOT rushing away from us, black holes are really white and the world will end on October 21st

Black holes are a way to explain effects we see in a homogeneous way.

[blinky]

You are wrong. Prove it.

Sorry Stardad but scientists have tried to prove it - google proving speed of light. Time and again they are unable to make these things different. So as far as science is concerned it has been proven, to the best of our current abilities granted! Now, it's your turn, prove the speed of light is not constant........ Give us, proper scientific data, not conjecture and hearsay, real, hard facts.

[starrdad]

Sorry Stardad but scientists have tried to prove it - google proving speed of light. Time and again they are unable to make these things different. So as far as science is concerned it has been proven, to the best of our current abilities granted! Now, it's your turn, prove the speed of light is not constant........ Give us, proper scientific data, not conjecture and hearsay, real, hard facts.

You first. Your post was vague. You see unless our laws apply far away, all bets are off including spectral lines.

[blinky]

Google it Stardard - Are the Laws of Nature the Same Everywhere in the Universe?

Thats just the first link I hit - I'm not going any further. I dont need to prove it - I'm happy it has been proven, so far you have provided nothing.

[starrdad]

Google it Stardard - Are the Laws of Nature the Same Everywhere in the Universe?

Thats just the first link I hit - I'm not going any further. I dont need to prove it - I'm happy it has been proven, so far you have provided nothing.

" The quasar’s light, which took 7.5 billion years to reach us, was partially absorbed by ammonia gas in an intervening galaxy. " your link

Can you tell us details? Where is this intervening galaxy? Or is this just about faith??

Also blue and redshift depend on light being constant..no? That assumption seems built into your link.

"As light from the quasar travels to Earth, the Universe continues to expand, stretching the light's wavelength (it gets redder the longer it travels)."

[ollypenrice]

Check out the Tully-Fisher relation and its comparison with the redhift method for galaxy distance determination then ask yourself how much you believe in coincidence.

Then read up on the astrophysical explanations around the Herzprung Russell diagram and the way these accord with absolute and apparent magnitude ( and the distance modulus) and ask yourself again about your faith in coincidence.

Then read up on the accord between all the standard candle distance estimation methods and their calibration, where possible, from triangulation. By now you will be keen to found a new church dedicated to the worship of coincidence...

Olly

[starrdad]

Check out the Tully-Fisher relation and its comparison with the redhift method for galaxy distance determination then ask yourself how much you believe in coincidence.

If you undertand it, talk about it. In what way is it coincidence? Do you understand the basic assumptions and premises?

Then read up on the astrophysical explanations around the Herzprung Russell diagram and the way these accord with absolute and apparent magnitude ( and the distance modulus) and ask yourself again about your faith in coincidence.

Explain in your own words what it is and why you think it matters?

Then read up on the accord between all the standard candle distance estimation methods and their calibration, where possible, from triangulation.

Unless our laws applied this would be meaningless....and our space!

[RobH]

Stardad.....will you be asking us to prove that a wheel is round next?

My mobile phone works, and so does this computer...they are both designed based upon physical laws which have been proved time and time again.

I suggest that, as I said before, YOU do some research and stop wasting our time with this deliberately argumentative nonsense.

[Macavity]

Can you tell us details? Where is this intervening galaxy? Or is this just about faith??

Their research was published in the journal Science...

Sounds like a good place to start (reading)? Failing that, there's this bloke...Brian Cox,

I think it was? He loves a good "chin wag" on this stuff: Sue Rider Management

[starrdad]

Stardad.....will you be asking us to prove that a wheel is round next?

My mobile phone works, and so does this computer...they are both designed based upon physical laws which have been proved time and time again.

I suggest that, as I said before, YOU do some research and stop wasting our time with this deliberately argumentative nonsense.

No I just ask you to support what you claim. Otherwise it is argumentative nonsense.

[starrdad]

Sounds like a good place to start (reading)? Failing that, there's this bloke...Brian Cox,

I think it was? He loves a good "chin wag" on this stuff: Sue Rider Management

Don't spam links. Make a point and explain in your own words. Use links for support.