Buying (or not) a cheap scope

[Carbon Brush]

Maybe the wrong part of SGL for this topic. Mods please feel free to move if required.

There have been quite a few threads about the problems of people buying high street or supermarket scopes that are not worth their scrap metal value. Unfortunately these have always been found after the event. Maybe this one can be nipped in the bud?

One of the parts suppliers I use at work has just started to sell an astronomical telescope. It doesn't exactly go with everything else they sell. But I can see why they have included it. A significant part of their business comes from the edcucation sector so they hope to pick up a few sales here.

When I tell you that it is a 76mm reflector badged Draper, you can see why the alarm bells are ringing.

As I spend a lot of money with this company, I feel that I can be quite bold in telling them to get their act together and sell a decent product, or not bother. The customer is always right and all that. Thay have already withdrawn several catalogue items on customer recommendation, including mine. There is therefore a precedent.

Following is a draft of an email that I am thinking of putting together for them. Comments from other SGL members are most welcome for editing, adding and deleting. Maybe I have been a bit heavy handed in my criticisms? A well constructed report on the scope they are selling will be taken notice of. Perhaps we can make a difference?

Thanks for reading,

David.

While looking through the nnnn hand tools/inspection section I was amazed to find an astronomical telescope, stock number nnnnn. It is generally good to see nnnn expanding their product range. Unfortunately it is disappointing to see nnnn selling a product that they clearly know absolutely nothing about and is not a product that will perform well.

Perhaps a few words of explanation to show how your description is wildly misleading?

Your catalogue description follows.

A Dobsonian (Newtonian) reflector telescope with 76mm reflector lens, ideal for viewing the sky at night. Especially for observing nebulae, moons, planets and galaxies. Altazimuth mounted, this is a great beginners telescope. Focal length 700mm (f9). Supplied with, x3 Barlow lens, 5 x 24 finderscope, aluminium tripod and accessory tray. Display packed.

A 'dobsonian' refers to the type of mount that the telescopes sits on. NOT the telescope.

A 'newtonian' is a reflector telescope. You have this part correct.

However MIRRORS reflect and LENSES refract. A big difference here.

This telescope has a 76mm reflector MIRROR.

Your company sells strongly in the education sector.

How many physics teachers and students are going to laugh at this basic blunder?

Next 'ideal for viewing the sky at night'.

Not really. For astronomy you would be far better with a dobsonian mount, or an equatorial mount.

Besides this alt azimuth mount being the type least preferred for astronomy, it is a very unsteady construction. To get the mount rigidity requirements into perspective. A full moon is about 0.5 degrees wide. So when the mount and tripod together flex by this tiny amount, you shoot the largest sky object from one side of the view to the other. At higher magnification, you would not be able to keep an object in view. This alt azimuth mount is more for terrestrial viewing.

Then the statement 'especially for observing nebulae, moons, planets and galaxies'.

This is very misleading.

Nebulae. The light gathering of a 76mm reflector is adequate to show only the brightest objects.

Probably the only nebula bright enough for this scope is the Great Orion Nebula.

This is visible by unaided eye, in winter, given a good dark sky.

Moons. You could pick up (besides our moon) Jupiters 4 bright moons, but probably nothing else.

Probably not even Saturn's brightest, Titan.

Planets. You will see the planets that were known to the ancients.

Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. All are visible to the unaided eye.

The combination of small mirror and cheap mount mean you have no chance on the others.

Galaxies. Well I doubt it.

OK there is one galaxy, Andromeda that is visible to the unaided eye in a dark place.

Everything else needs a better scope than this one.

A great beginners scope.

Quite honestly, the views afforded by this scope are more likely to put people off astronomy, rather than encourage them.

There is, by the way, no mention of what eyepieces are supplied. the scope won't work without them!

In conclusion, there are huge blunders in selling this low quality product. Then there are the errors in the product description. Can your customers really have confidence in everything else you sell?

[spaceboy]

I will be honest and I will probably be cut to shreds for it but these scopes are perfectly fine for there intended purpose. ie: "TOY" for want of a better word. I assume they are around the £50-£70 mark and come with a terrible AZ mount and even worse EP's but they are not really intended for the amateur astronomer so much as for younger children to play with one night and then end up being a bazooka for their action men. You would be hard pushed to find a good quality optical instrument for this price so it just offers people the chance to have a quick look at the sky in the off chance they may actually enjoy it. I agree the description may be a little over zealous but thats no doubt the manufacturers sale pitch to keep their staff in a job. I can understand your concerns but as you say "It doesn't exactly go with everything else they sell." would suggest to a potential customer that this isn't going to be a precision piece of kit.

[Carbon Brush]

Additional info.

The price, with VAT is almost £80.

It is in the same catalogue section as quality inspection/measurement kit.

By hiding it among decent stuff, do 'non telescope' people realise it is a toy?

Excellent suggestion though that they show it as a 'toy'.

[spaceboy]

By hiding it among decent stuff, do 'non telescope' people realise it is a toy?

Excellent suggestion though that they show it as a 'toy'.

I'm a firm believer that there is no excuse for ignorance. If a person intends to part with their hard earned cash naively then on their own shoulders be it. If the company have a "toy" section then by all means suggest it to them.

[jabberwocky]

Whilst I'm all for companies branching out into other areas, who would expect a musical instrument maker to branch out into making motorbikes, they should make sure these products are of a good quality and to have a least done a bit of research before trying to sell to the public.

But who on earth would buy a telescope from anyone other than a telescope dealer/ shop / website? I'm a newbie stargazer and it never occurred to me to buy my first scope from anyone other than a telescope shop.

This company should be made aware that they Are selling an inferior product which could damage their reputation.

[JamesM]

Machine Mart who have outlets all over Britain also sell a telescope under the section marked Gardening and Leisure but admittedly, they claim their scope is for nature and bird watching thank goodness. There is nothing worse than companies selling rubbish and it is such a short sighted policy because consumer confidence in products is absolutely essential to any company's future. It also smacks of desperateness which is also not a good sign, so although the actual purchasers of this scope will disappointed, other people looking at this product won't be impressed either as it does look cheap.

I don't know where to start with this. The only thing your going to see with this is a gap in your wallet where £80 used to be. Aperture equals resolution and the points you make are correct as anything that appears in this scope will be too small, too faint with insufficient detail. The mount is worse than useless and I'd rather attach this scope to my garden fence with a bit of mastic tape and wait for the stars to cross in front of it, at least the image would be relatively steady.

I take my hat off to you in attempting to address this issue and the points you make are correct. You could suggest an alternative product but there isn't one at that price point. I hope they listen to your views but I have this feeling that where there's profit to be made, some will want to secure it no matter what the true costs. Keep us updated on your progress or of any response you get. If this catalogue is available to joe public maybe we could all give them a ring to dissuade them from this deception!

Clear skies

James

[Gina]

You can get a decent pair of binoculars for that price which would be far more suitable.

[Carbon Brush]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

I have sent an email letter to the company concerned. It comprises the text in my original post, with minor revisions, plus selected quotes from your replies. You are identifed only as 'people very knowledgeable in astronomy' who I have consulted. Naturally you have not been named. But if want to be...?

As the email left late Friday afternoon, I did not expect any response. I do though expect to hear something Monday and will keep you posted.

Last time that I made a complaint about a poorly performing product from this company, they verified my report, refunded my purchase then promptly removed the item from the web catalogue. Fingers crossed on this one.

David.

This

[tbird]

It was one of these Draper scopes that got me into seriously looking to buy a decent telescope.

A shop locally had a new one in the window for £59. I thought that's cheap, but being a careful sort with money I started researching, ending up here and the kit I eventually bought. ( not a Draper )

[Madhatter]

Draper 76mm Dobsonian REFLECTOR TELESCOPE Astronomy | eBay UK

This auction appears to have been listed 20 mins ago, have they raised the price or am i going mad?

[Carbon Brush]

Hi Madhatter.

The 'bay' scope rip off price doesn't surprise me at all.

You see plenty of stuff for daft high prices on there. You only need some nice words in the listing and few idiots to stay well in profit.

David.

[Carbon Brush]

I had an email from the 'Draper' supplier today. Just letting me know that my comments had been passed to the all the relevant people and I had not been forgotten.

Wonder if they are looking to get a 2nd opinion from a local astro soc?

Maybe someone is taking a scope home to see how it works out?

[JamesM]

Dave, well done for trying and we will await the final response. Some people might look on and wonder why bother, but if you really enjoy a subject such as astronomy, you'll also be keen to ensure others can also enjoy it as well without issues like poor performing kit getting in the way. Cheap scopes that don't work doesnt do anyone any favours. We await the finally installment!

James

[Adrian Condon]

Hi David and James,

I have just hitched onto this thread.

I agree that this Draper Scope is a poor deal.

I have gone onto eBay this morning. There are 6 tool supplier companies attempting to sell this woeful product.

The prices they are charging range from £70 to £100!!! all on a Buy it Now basis.

I have contacted the company selling at £99.99... with the following email.

"Dear nnnnnnnnn,

Hi,

This item is wrongfully described.

It is not a Dobsonian scope. A Dobsonian is a design of telescope mount, the telescope is a Newtonian design.

This scope is of poor quality, and will turn people off astronomy as the views they get will be so disappointing.

The description has been written by somebody with no knowledge of astronomy. It is a shame that you are willing (or are totally unaware) of the damage this product might do to your company's good reputation.

If I was you I would return the remaining scopes to Draper. I have a number of Draper tools of reasonable quality and would recommend to friends, but this scope does not meet your aim of "supplying expert quality tools".

Incidentally, you also claim down to earth prices, yours is the most expensive on eBay by about £30.

Trust you can accept this note helpful to your product understanding.

Regards

Adrian"

I await their response, if it is printable I will post it here.

James, my glasses are ok!!

Cheers

Adrian

[JamesM]

I don't know Adrian, always one to make a spectacle of himself! (couldn't resist ) Perhaps this could be the start of movement to get rid of these ineffective scopes that really are not fit for purpose and which create a lot of unnecessary disappointment. Looking forward to reading the outcomes of these two campaigns.

James

[Adrian Condon]

Hi Lads,

I got a very pleasant response from the eBay seller of the scopes. It was a fairly lengthy answer, well reasoned and acceptable. He admits that scopes are not his forte, that he acts on the description given by Draper because he is one of their dealers. He now believes that Draper have got the description incorrect in this instance.

He has sold a few scopes in the past and to-date has not received any adverse comments, (this is borne out by his eBay feedback). He will look at his catalogue at the end of the monthly cycle and determine given the comments he has received whether to continue with the scopes.

Has I have said he appears to be a reasonable and honest person.

I would be happy to buy Draper tools from him, but not a scope!!!

All the best......

Adrian

[tomw28]

It would be such a shame of people new to astronomy were put off by scopes such as these.

In fairness to the eBay seller, he seems to have updated the ad as per Adrian's suggestions.

PS comments come in from time to time that this description is wrong but it is the manufacturers description . One such comment reads~~

*"It is not a Dobsonian scope. A Dobsonian is a design of telescope mount, the telescope is a Newtonian design"

please bear this in mind before you make an offer*. This is not a*professional quality*telescope

It's refreshing to see honesty like this from a seller, but maybe he should think about lowering the price as well if it's not "professional quality"...

[JamesM]

Thanks Adrian for the feedback and now await to hear what reply David gets back from 'up the line'.

Many thanks for everyones efforts - the crusade moves forward!

James

[Carbon Brush]

Just to give you an update.

The Draper supplier I have been chasing has taken up the matter with Draper.

The person responsible at Draper is in India at present. But this has not been forgotten.

I'm not going to 'name and shame' thje supplier yet. I will wait and see what response they give.

[Carbon Brush]

A partial answer - eventually - from the supplier...

Just to keep you informed, we are still waiting for a fuller explanation from Draper with regards to this part. They have agreed that in re-wording the specification of this part for their own marketing purposes they have added in information which in hindsight should not have been added in as it is not 100% accurate. They have assured us that these telescopes are sourced from a well known company whose products are popular and do not generally receive any bad publicity or feedback.

We fully appreciate the comments you have made and will be changing the module description on this item once we have the full and final comments from the manufacturer. As soon as we have this we will advise you accordingly. Both my manager and the procurement manager are aware of this issue.

Once again we very much value this matter being brought to our attention as we were unaware of any misleading information it may have contained.

When I have seen the new product description, I will post it. Along with any other comments from the supplier.

The company concerned sell heavily in the education sector. Your school could be wasting their meagre resources on this telescope.

Should I name and shame?

David.

[Adrian Condon]

Hi David,

I would give your supplier extra time as he is at the mercy of Draper.

Await the response you get.

Cheers

Adrian

[Carbon Brush]

OK 4 weeks on and the only slightly amended description is still in place.

A Dobsonian (Newtonian) reflector telescope with 76mm reflector lens, ideal for viewing the sky at night. Especially for observing nebulae, moons, planets and galaxies. Altazimuth mounted, this is a great beginners telescope. Focal length 700mm (f9). Supplied with, x3 Barlow lens, 5 x 24 finderscope, aluminium tripod and accessory tray. Display packed.

• Altazimuth mounted
  
• A great beginners telescope
  
• Not suitable for land use as image produced is inverted
  

They have had enough time to sort this, so I'm going name and shame.

The company is Rapid Electronics Ltd from Colchester. Does this matter? Yes it does. If you have children at school, then that school probably spends with Rapid. They sell actively nationwide into the ecucation sector, all sorts of things from pencils to lab equipment. Oh yes, telescopes as well.

So next time you are at a parents evening, grab the head of design/technology, head of science, head money person, whoever. Let them know they need to check carefully before buying from Rapid.

I'm not just picking on Rapid here. Take a look at Amazon's offering on this scope.

OK rant over,

David.