Basementboy

Anyone have any experience of dark sky sites in South-EAST London? 

And is the Flamsteed Society at Greenwich worth joining?

I'd be interested to hear how you find the Baader Neodymium LP filter – from what I've read, LP filters don't make much appreciable difference in the age of LED?

Nice, I've been considering one of these – will be interested to hear your take on it

Hard for me to say what effect lockdown has had on how rational I'm being, because it was also the moment that got me into astronomy.

But I do already own more telescopes than I have mounts for.

Rational, no. Rationalised, oh yes.

Nice

Not one, but (following a fit of late-night rationalisation) two telescopes.

• OOUK 6" Newt, packaged with some lovely used Christmas wrapping – reduce, reuse, recycle, folks .............

First thoughts: surprisingly good build quality, and "made in UK" – you don't see that much any more. I even like the little Orion Optics sticker

• 115mm TS Optics Photoline apo triplet

First thoughts: I bought this one in person so I'd already seen it, but taking possession is still a thrill. I have somewhat ambitiously mounted it on my AZ3 – because the real problem I'm finding right now isn't laying my hands on a scope, but on a decent mount! And I still have naught for the Newt.

Very excited about pointing the triplet at the pink supermoon tonight

On 26/04/2021 at 18:10, badhex said:

Perhaps in the interests of equality we should name this the thread "What did the postie bring?"

I second that emotion

This is an inspiration. Take that, Ikea!

As for "it may not be pretty", I object – I think it's a slick as hell piece of design

I had my eye on Altair's 102mm doublet with FPL-51 glass for £495, but then came across a 115mm triplet for a good (slightly higher, of course) price.

However while the F7 triplet is great for size (71cm w dewshield retracted) and for balance between widefield and higher mag, the triplet is also heavier – meaning I need a lot more mount – and requires cooldown. And given I'm a visual observer only I'm not sure I need the extra clout of the triplet lenses anyway. 

But now I've got the idea of a little extra aperture in my brain, I can't get it out. Yet I can't seem to find any 115mm ED doublets at F7 – Skywatcher make some that are 900mm+ focal length which is just too unwieldy for me. I want that compact, light F7 sweet spot scope, just with 4.5" of aperture.

Is there such a thing? (Don't say Takahashi 😆)

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

You need to align the screw and flat on the SLO-mo ems or it won’t work. The AZ3 tends to slump back at higher elevations, I got a counterweight mod bar out front when I had a 120mm on mine. 

 

Yeah I eventually figured that out. I think for me the whole point of going AZ was to avoid counterweights, as portability is very important to me (I can't really see much from my garden so have to take the scope out elsewhere). But it's OK with the ST80 and, I'm guessing, slightly larger telescopes too

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

I find the dark a bit like a comfort blanket...

Yeah I can see that. When I let the sun set around me, instead of my showing up when it was already pitch black, it was sort of comforting – once I knew that I was definitely the only one around

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

going bigger id suggest a secondhand 8” dob, big step up, but easy to transport, use and doesn’t kill the wallet like other things can. 

 

Argh, thanks for putting yet more ideas in my head haha. When you say "easy to transport", aren't they ... quite large? I hear you on the wallet element for sure. These classy refractors hurt

4 hours ago, MercianDabbler said:

It wasn't exactly tropical on top of Exmoor in October. Strangely enough Dartmoor is one of the few places where wild camping is allowed without asking the landowner first... not that a camper van in a car park constitutes wild camping but hey ho. I suspect the camper van people were not disturbed by the relevant authority.

I did not know that – counting it as today's New Fact. Wild camping on Dartmoor must be great, not just for astronomy but for the sunrise ...

8 hours ago, davhei said:

Whatever was munching stayed with me for the whole session, never saw what it was, but towards the end it felt almost comforting hearing the chewing from someone having a midnight snack.

 

I think this might have had the opposite effect of comforting me – sounds like you were nearly devoured by a vicious hellhound. (Or perhaps a noctural sheep)

I must say I love fog on a lake in the morning or evening ... never seen it on the moors, but I bet that was an amazing experience

Just now, Tiny Clanger said:

All of the above?!

So YOU'RE the devil on my shoulder

13 hours ago, Pixies said:

This is the start of aperture fever. It was simple enough, a happy soul content with his 3" refractor - but then those voices start.... "4 inch ED", "127 Mak", "150 Dob".

Then the next thing you know:

Hahahahahaha

No but seriously though, I can stop any time, I swear ...

15 hours ago, MercianDabbler said:

Glad to see that you've bought yourself a scope and it sounds like you've had a good time of it in Devon and did well with the weather.

I sympathise on the feeling of vulnerability when out and about on your own with the car and telescope. Been there, done that. I don't have any great answers I'm afraid.

Out of interest, did you come across many camper vans parked up overnight on the moor? I was in Exmoor last October (with scopes) and just about every car park on road across the high moor had a camper van in it with lights on.

I do Dartmoor a lot but for some reason have never taken the scope with me... maybe because it's usually summer and too daylight. Must try harder.

No, I actually didn't see a single camper van. Maybe it's still a bit too cold? I was wearing about nine layers, including down and merino wool. (Though presumably the whole point of a camper van is that you can stay relatively warm...)

I guess that's the tradeoff – warmer weather means more light. But I definitely think I'd be willing to stay up later in order to be able to not freeze to death. I'm looking forward to another trip in summer. The great thing about Dartmoor (it seemed to me, anyway) was how high up you could get – I didn't expect to be able to see the Orion nebula but I had a good hour or two with it before the horizon claimed it. It would be even better if you climbed to the top of a tor ... but no way was I doing that alone at midnight haha. Honestly, though, taking the stick really helped – something atavistic about knowing you have a tool to fend off the other apes

16 hours ago, Sadiestorm said:

Excellent. Glad the dark skies made a big difference, although it's a shame your EP and finder didn't come in time. You have given me the urge to get out of central London and test the Mak. 

Definitely! It makes a big difference, at least for DSOs – not sure what the difference would be like on the gas giants when they finally rise this summer? I assume it would help with them, too

38 minutes ago, Kon said:

Nice report. It sounds a very successful trip and you got the bug for the fuzzies! Great!

Sure did. The question for me to try to answer next is whether that itch can be scratched in London, with ANY scope – ie a bigger Dob for more light, or a higher-end refractor for better contrast – or whether, alternatively, I should just get a Mak to concentrate on the Moon and planets, which are close enough to be seen no matter how bright the city lights

Just now, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

A great read. Thanks for sharing. 😀👍

Thanks for reading, and for helping me navigate the early shoals 🧐

Monday 12 April 2021: let the bells ring! By 9am I was at the Enterprise lot in Peckham, south London, and by 10am I was on the road to Dartmoor for my first dark skies expedition.

I bought my first telescope a few months ago – a little ST80, after lots of great advice on this forum – but hadn't used it outside of Bortle-9 skies, where I found it to be ... fun, but not mind-blowing. So I was looking forward to seeing whether @ScouseSpaceCadet was correct: that in dark skies, away from the blinding wall of the council estate LEDs, said mind would indeed be blown even by what seems to be the smallest useful amount of aperture. Unfortunately the BST Starguider 8mm EP and the Rigel Quikfinder that I ordered didn't arrive in the post in time. So I was stuck with my 26" and 10" Plossls, Astro Essentials barlow and an RDF. 

Luckily, like the rest of you, I got three straight clear nights. To whip through them:

Day 1. Carpark, Ashbourne Woods, Rattery, Devon. Accompanied by two friends who'd never used a telescope before.

No moon, but a fair bit of extra light from the campsite lot, from the occasional passing cars and from my friends' insistence on checking their phones periodically despite my stern admonishments. The sky was still amazing even without a scope, although some of my easy newbie targets (Orion nebula, Pleiades etc) were already below the horizon. But we saw a few lovely things through the ST80. (*Friends' review in quotation marks) 

-Mars ("no way")
-Castor ("well blow me down")
-the Beehive ("Wow!!!")
-M3 ("Oh yeah, there it is")
-The Leo trio ("I think I can see something...")

Overall assessment, as I fiddled endlessly with eyepiece caps and loose screws and jerky AZ3 mount and malfunctioning slow-motion controls: "It's a good thing you aren't trying to impress a girl"

Day 2. Friends gone. Who needs them. I drove to Haytor carpark, Dartmoor National Park, at midnight. But – full disclosure – it was terrifying to arrive in pitch blackness in the middle of a moor where killers famously dump bodies, and the dark tourist info building and the popping sound of the cooling engine and the occasional bleat of a sheep in the distance freaked me out so much that I couldn't relax and scarpered back to the safety of the campsite carpark. Fail! Objects:

-Leo Trio – yes, definitely saw them this time through averted vision, with notable shapes, although it felt much more like a box-ticking exercise than an impressive view
-Crab Nebula – nope
-Auriga clusters M36, M37, M38 – clearly seen through the ST80 and very impressive indeed. Was starting to really get the hang of finding things and using the equipment by now – the RDF is actually fine with such a short focal length
-NGC2244 and the Rosette Nebula – Cluster yes, nebula no

Overall assessment: not bad ... but my cowardice meant I had to deal with car and campsite lights again. Why had I come all this way? Slunk back ashamed to the sleeping bag.

Day 3. Carpe diem. Fear is the mind-killer! I found a big stick in the woods for protection, drove out to Dartmoor again but this time while the sun was still up, scouted out a good site – high on a hill near Hound's Tor with no nearby buildings or hedges for serial killers to hide behind – and set up. 

As the sun set and the moon shone, I settled in. The only light was from the lunar sliver (but wow, that damn thing is bright), distant Exeter and the odd car zooming past every 15 minutes or so, which I closed my eyes against. Besides allowing me to conquer my fear, the other nice thing about arriving early was that I caught some of the stars before they vanished below the horizon. Objects:

-Orion Nebula. WOW. Mind blown. I can't imagine what that looks like through a bigger aperture with better eyepieces and a nebula filter (still kicking myself @Size9Hex for not picking up yours) and higher in the sky. What a truly incredible thing to be able to see as a human being with one's own eyes.
-Leo Trio. Snooze, old hat (yeah that's right @Tiny Clanger, I said it)
-M94, fuzzy dot
-Cor Caroli, easy split
-Polaris, failed to split in the 3" ST80 – that 10mm Plossl is grim
-Whirlpool galaxy – yes!!! Both M51 and NGC 5195. Now that is cool
-Pinwheel – yes! Not as amazing as the Whirlpool but hey, that is an entire galaxy in my field of view
-The Double Cluster – yep, there they are, sparkly and clear in the refractor 
-M81 and M82 – smudges, they admittedly are. But again – ACTUAL GALAXIES
-M13 – the Hercules great globular cluster. Pretty amazing. No stars resolved, unfortunately, but that is certainly a large glowing fuzzball of several hundred thousand floating fusion reactors.

By 1am, I'd been outside for nearly 5 hours in freezing cold temperatures so, buzzing and exhausted, it was time to head back to the relative warmth of the tent.

Highlights:

Dark skies, well, you all know the difference they make. I need to find some better viewing spots closer to London – car rental and petrol is expensive for a long trip, even if camping. The ST80 is also a good little device – @ScouseSpaceCadet was right. Extremely clear widefield views and I got the impression it was magnifying well, just being let down by the EPs and Barlow. CA was an utter irrelevance even on the brighter objects – maybe it's a bigger problem in a more powerful telescope? Or maybe it's more of an astrophotography concern? Or maybe I just don't care. (Or care yet.)

Problems:

-EPs. The 10mm Plossl must be banished back from whence it came. 
-Mount. The AZ3 is actually perfectly usable in the ST80, because the field of view is so wide it really doesn't need to be too finely calibrated. But it's jerky and sticky and you need to move it a few degrees past your target because of its dreadful recoil, or whatever you call it when mounts settle in a slightly different place to where you've pointed them. The stupid slow-mo controls won't seem to stay on, either.
-Aperture. 3" is so small! The faint fuzzies were never more than blobs at best. I demand more. A 4.5" ED frac a la @Commanderfish)? A 127Mak a la @Sadiestorm? A Heritage Dob 150 a la  @Tiny Clanger? Time to enquire about the health of Uncle Visa.

Overall assessment: THANK YOU SGL FOR HOOKING ME ON THIS WONDERFUL PURSUIT.

x Chris

The hoodie filter! Genius

I took my own new ST80 out recently on my first dark skies camping trip – will write up a report on it now ... lots of similar targets to yours

As a newbie myself, I second the ST80 love – it's small but solid, and inexpensive but high-quality. The contrast is good and you can see a lot – it's best for "wide angle" views, things like the Pleiades, but the view of the Moon is incredible: you may not be able to zoom right in on it, like with a Mak or other longer focal length telescope, but the view is crystal clear and the Moon fills the frame beautifully ... all I could ever want, at least for now. I even got a great pic with my old smartphone. And you can split stars. I also gather the ST80 is terrific in dark skies – which I plan to test out next week on Dartmoor.

I too found the RDF a bit pointless (pun intended ... my first one was broken so had no red dot at all!), but with the helpful advice of SGL members I've invested in a cheap Rigel quikfinder which should help: it uses circles, like a target, so you can measure how far you're moving in the sky instead of just pointing and crossing your fingers. And if there were any 6x30 RACIs available for love or money I'd get one of those, too.

My main piece of advice: avoid the AZ3 mount. It came with my ST80 package as a package, and it's whatever the opposite of a joy is to use. But I've tried an AZ5 at a friend's house and it's terrific. I have never used an AZ-GTi but it seems to get good marks, too, if you want Go-To. 

And if you don't want the ST80 then yes, the 127 Mak is good: much better magnification than the ST80 (it's just a more powerful telescope), although the ST80 beats it on crispness, I reckon.

The worst bit is that there's almost nothing for sale at the moment, but good beginner telescopes like these do come up in the wanted section on this site and on UK Astronomy Buy & Sell: https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/propview.php

Good luck

23 minutes ago, JamesF said:

Could we recognise "intelligence" if it didn't lead to those effects (such as a technological civilisation) that we understand to be the consequences of intelligence?

We barely recognise it even when it's carbon-based and oxygen-respiring and genetically very similar to us, like octopuses. We just eat it

If we did find an environment without predation, is there any chance we wouldn't (as it were) predate it? I know more about North American history than Oceanian but I don't recall those people of the south seas faring particularly well after the arrival of the missionaries

3 hours ago, dweller25 said:

2. 120mm refractor doublet, fairly light, quick to cool, relatively expensive, will need an extra dew shield, pin sharp.

David, do you mind if I ask in your experience what you think is the best-value example of a telescope like this one? Ie highest quality balanced against lowest price? I have been looking at the Altair Ascent 102ED F7 doublet and wondering if there is a similar scope (F7 or relatively fast) that's got a 120mm aperture but isn't 1 meter long ... 

Haha I should have bought it off you after all, Stu!

On 18/03/2021 at 07:25, Oat said:

I have also got an SVBONY SV171 zoom eyepiece

Congrats on the new ST80 and welcome to the club! Innteresting about the zoom eyepiece – have you tried any others, like the Baader Hyperion I see mentioned?

23 hours ago, KP82 said:

The AZ3 is now the weakest link in your rig.

Yeah, definitely. I'd almost be tempted to buy it even without getting another telescope. That said, I am thinking of picking up a used Skymax 90 that I think/hope will be OK on the AZ3? Or is that wishful thinking?

I wish those slow boats from China would hurry up ... I don't see any AZ5 mounts for sale secondhand.

22 hours ago, Aquavit said:

So I convinced myself I needed a 'Frac and bought an ED80 from TS-Optiks along with their AZT6 mount as a grab and go setup that will travel easily.

Haha yeah I can see why. I'm looking at eventually getting a 4" given I've already got the 3". How's the AZT6? 

On 18/03/2021 at 08:41, happy-kat said:

The thread on my first light on the ST80 and what I had used for the counter weight bar.

Nice hack!

22 hours ago, Pixies said:

I love my new AZ5. It's such a revelation having decent slo-mo controls on a stable AltAz mount.

Jealous

10 hours ago, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

Get that scope out to rural skies and it actually will "blow your mind visually".

As soon as the lockdown chains are off!

9 hours ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

So , whats the next scope , Chris...lol ?

Haha you guessed it, already have my eye on the second (and third!) ones. I reckon a small Mak? Last night I got access to the roof of my building, which was amazing - it makes it MUCH easier and safer for me to take multiple scopes if needed – not to mention maybe investing in something a little pricier in future (that F7 ED doublet?) that I would otherwise worry about losing to one of Camberwell's many enterprising young gang members

But for now I really need a better mount. The AZ3 is not a lot of fun to use.

8 hours ago, Tiny Clanger said:

I've had a look  around, and found some discussion about the az3 mount alt problem :

 

Thanks! These are really helpful links. I'm going to try taking it apart and using lithium grease, instead of the "glue and molasses" that's in the there – this sounds like it makes the action a lot smoother. But as one of the commenter says, "This thing has been around since Herodotus was a cheerleader and hasn't changed for the better." He notes it is basically designed to  be forcibly shoved around, which is why it has the slow-mo controls to fine tune. Look, it's a light, cheap mount and I got the whole package with decent eyepieces for under £200. I'm not complaining. Though I am eyeing up an AZ5...

6 hours ago, Tiny Clanger said:

That 2x barlow , is it one of the very cheap efforts with just a single lens at the bottom ? Someone 'kind' but with no idea gave me one of those a while back, shiny plastic tube , single element glass lens, no coating on the lens, truly horrible overall effect 😞

 

Awful. Hideous. Like you're barely looking at the sky at all. Definitely eyeing an upgrade! But, given the ST80 is really a widefield scope, I wonder how much magnification it can take anyway? My 26" Plossl is great but the 10" definitely not quite as bright (though I suppose that's a given – the higher the mag, the less light, correct?)

5 hours ago, happy-kat said:

I added a counter weight bar to my az3.

Interesting! I see one of the other commenters did the same. What kind of telescope do you have on it? The tricky bit for me is that I want/need portability, so I was very keen to avoid counterweights

5 hours ago, wibblefish said:

Look forward to hearing any more thoughts or further telescope reviews in future

You may live to regret this statement