Tiny Clanger

By the way, another photographers trick to steady a telephoto without a tripod : tie a long string to a bolt put in the tripod socket under the camera, drop the string, stand on the bottom end of the string, and pull the string taut as you lift camera to eye. It was surprisingly effective, I'll have to try it with the binos now I've remembered it .

What really matters ?

Instrument magnification, weight, balance, grip.

User strength, stance , steadiness, grip, heartbeat, breathing

Target angle of altitude, local conditions of wind , security of footing etc.

The steadiness is a result of interplay between all the above, but magnification is the simplest, most easily quantifiable factor.

In the days before image stabilization, photographers like me had to learn how to hold a camera steady by using similar methods to those of competitive rifle target shooters and archers. We had a reciprocal rule of thumb : for a 50mm lens , most people's longest hand held exposure without camera shake spoiling the photo would be 1/50th of a second, for a 200mm lens, 1/200th of a second, and so on.

Out of habit, I still bring a DSLR to my eye , one hand under the lens, one on the camera body, elbows tucked in, back of camera pressed firmly to nose and eyebrow, and breathe out before pressing the shutter. I could manage 1/30th with a 50mm lens back then , and these days quite often turn the stabilization off on my current lenses (which is recommended when using them on tripods) , forget to turn it back on,  and see no difference until I really push the camera in low light.

And, at last, I've found a use for the monopod which became redundant when stabilized telephotos became available ... to hold my binoculars steady  !

I was just about to say exactly what Zermelo did , thanks, saved me the trouble !

Note the O.P. is in Hungary though, perhaps the importer gets a different specification package there ?

I endorse everything Cosmic Geoff said above .

Be absolutely certain that you can change the 45 degree prism on the C90 and that it can take standard eyepieces , much better to try and track down the model intended for astro use rather than waste money trying to make the spotter scope what it isn't.

The mak is not big or heavy, so any decently made photo tripod which is tall enough should be fine . Benro used to be top of the range and expensive decades ago, I've no idea if they still are, I seem to recall the original specialist company and brand name name got sold . Don't bother with exotic lightweight tripods unless you are hiking up mountains, a heavy cheap basic model will be fine. Try to find something with minimal plastic and thick metal tubes , the heavier and chunkier it is, the more stable a platform it will be. If you can get it to around head height without extending the central column much (which will add wobbles) even better.

6 minutes ago, deThalion said:

Another point for DSO then. 

I have room for it in my flat. The only thing what would be a little problematic is to watch something out of my window (4th floor) but I think I can manage something to have it at the needed height to gaze outside my window. 

Ah ! Oh dear.

The problems you will encounter when observing out of an upstairs window have been thoroughly explained very recently here :

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/367504-bedroom-astronomy/

I'll leave you to read those pages of reasons why it's a bad idea . If you have a good sized balcony, that might work, but the dob. tube might make it difficult to work around the angles you need to be at. If there's a garden or a park you can use, you might want to reconsider and think about something portable ...

Heather

27 minutes ago, Oakbeard said:

I thought about that but since everyone seems to lay them down I'm wondering if I would be exposing them to worse "bumps". A case is always useful and monoprice have slimmer ones, shipping was free so I would probably order another one if I find this one not up to the task. Appreciate the thought

I noticed that 'laying down' orientation too, but for years I've had expensive Nikon camera lenses stored vertically in deep alu. cases , and never had a problem despite them being bigger and more delicate ( many more moving parts) than telescope eyepieces. As long as the case is deep enough to still have some padding top and bottom, vertical storage seems fine to me. I've a small but deep peli lookalike case for my eyepieces, and store them vertically, I used a bit of metal tube of the correct diameter sharpened one end with a file, and used it to cut neat cylindrical holes to take the EP lower barrels,  the lower cap stays put in the base of the foam when I pull an EP out too, so I don't need to faff with those .

I could of course be wrong (or labouring under a common misconception) but I guessed the 'lay the EP down' orientation was probably popular because folk with a lot of EPs find it an easier way to distinguish between them in use , plus some of the huge EPs would need a very deep box to stand upright . Having just 5 cheapies to my name , two of which are of a distinctively different design , I don't have that problem .

Yet.

Heather

Dobsonians are great, rather than trying to produce a package of tripod, mount, and telescope at a price point , and making compromises with a flimsy tripod and cheaply made but complicated mount, a dobsonian design puts the telescope on a cheap, heavy, sturdy wooden cradle. So most of your money goes to the telescope itself, and you get a bigger mirror. They are also simple to set up and get used to using.

The downsides are the size of the thing , be sure you appreciate just how tall the telescope is , the size of its base, and the weight. As long as you are confident it won't get in the way indoors, and will be easy for you to carry outside to use, it's a great choice. Collimation is not the nightmare some accounts suggest, as long as you are cautious and careful .

I bought a 150 dob as my first proper telescope 6 months ago, I don't have the space to store a full sized one, so bought a SkyWatcher heritage 150 which closes down to half length, and has a tabletop dobsonian mount. It works very well for me, I'm glad I chose it.

I'm surprised there are no eyecups on your EPs, I thought all the skywatcher 'scopes came with the same 10mm and 20mm starter ones. My heritagedob.  did,  and so did the 127 mak I bought more recently . Both pairs of EPs were identical (the mak set I checked were OK then put back in the delivery box to store) and had small fold up rubber eyecups .

I saw somewhere a suggestion that you can make a cheap temporary soft eyecup from a bit of (well cleaned !) bike inner tube of a suitable diameter , so maybe you could make a temporary solution. I'd suggest a do it yourself dew shield too, closed cell foam cut from a cheap camping mat or craft shop stock should be fine : on my neat final version I stuck velcro on using a hot glue gun ( which I'd thought would melt the foam, but I experimented on a scrap bit, and  it was fine ), on my prototype I just tied some string around it !

The trouble with getting a good focus is that if the 'seeing' is not ideal,   Mars (or Jupiter, or Saturn ) will appear fuzzy even if your focus is bang on . Rather than expecting your view to snap into something sharp, use the apparent size of the planet's disc , it will increase as you move out of focus (either way), so aim to get the little circle as small as possible, and when starts to increase in size again, turn the focus knob back the other way. You may find you have good focus, but still Mars looks fuzzy due to atmospheric conditions here on Earth. If the Moon looked sharp, it's not a fault with you, your focusing or your telescope  , and as has been said, you can focus on the Moon first if it's available.

Heather

8 hours ago, PurpleK said:

I really appreciate both your guys' help, do you have any binocular recommendations or other astronomy gifts apart from the guide? The guide does look like a very nice little gift too!

Some interesting options here https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-christmas-2020-gift-guide.html

Also a torch or headtorch which gives out red light is a good astro accessory, the red light doesn't ruin your eye's adaptation to the dark as a normal white light does.

A sound investment that  ! Exciting isn't it.

Beware though of the 'better equipment' imps who will soon be whispering in your ear something like

'If I only had a ..... I could see ..... and photograph ....... "

Heather

The planisphere can be bought from many bookshops, here's an AZ link

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Philips-Planisphere-Latitude-51-5-North/dp/1849074852/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=planisphere&qid=1607188803&sr=8-1

for a little more , there's a glow in the dark one, which may or may not be better, I've no idea, but it sounds a fun gimmick ...

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Philips-Glow-Dark-Planisphere-Latitude/dp/1849074844/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=planisphere&qid=1607189054&sr=8-3

As for binoculars, it's a huge topic, and has it's own section on here. I took the advice of one of the members via their website, specifically this page

https://binocularsky.com/binoc_choosing.php

I spent £70 on the Opticron 10x50s which are recommended on there, and am very pleased with them, but the Olympus 8x40 suggested at the top of the list are £55 on amazon which is closer to what you want to spend.  Handily the 2021 guide book I mentioned (I've bought one as a gift, and naturally have had a peek inside before wrapping ... ) has a 4 page section on viewing with binoculars , so get another relative to get him that if you've maxed out your cash on binoculars !

Heather

19 minutes ago, Cohhul said:

Thanks so much for everyones feedback.

I am planning to make a purchase on Monday. Based upon what people have said I have whittled it down to these few here...

Calstron 80EQ Deluxe 290USD

Calstron C90 Mak 280USD

Meade Polaris D80F900 EQ 300USD

SkyWatcher 90 EQ2 300USD

 

Would anyone care to share their opinion about these? Once again thanks for the help here. I didn't expect forums to be so helpful

 

Some of those names can apply to more than one telescope, as the 80 or 90 is the diameter of the optics . best give a full name or a link to get accurate responses, for instance I looked up 'Calstron 80EQ Deluxe' and got results for Celestron PowerSeeker 80 and Celestron AstroMaster 80 , two different telescopes entirely. You don't want advice based on the wrong product !

9 minutes ago, Marvin Jenkins said:

What a great thread. The old pictures showing how it was done back in the day are great. Love the retro comments. I will add “what happened to corduroy trousers and patches on the elbows of jackets”?

I vividly remember a geography teacher at school that used to have a leather protector for his wrist watch. To see the face you undid a popper and lifted away the hard leather front. 
As kids we thought it was funny as the latest thing was the Casio calculator watch, not some old chunk of stainless. Now I love old chunks of stainless.

Sorry I cannot contribute a photo, I only started Astro three years ago, so no photos at all.

Marv

We had a couple of pupils from our year go and spend the summer hol.s on  kibbutz , they came back flaunting watches with little flip over leather cover things built in, which was about as far as school uniform rebellion managed to push it at my school .

No photos of me and the very first 'scope back when I was about 6 or 7, I don't think Dad had any flashbulbs (an expensive, one shot device) , and he was a useless photographer at the best of times. Many years later, after he died, my sister found a lovely wooden box neatly furnished with slots to hold 35mm slides. It was full of kodachromes, but every last image was either a fuzzy distant train, a fuzzy distant naval vessel with a wildly angled horizon, or  a blurry, wonky , head amputated picture of the dog. Photography was not his forte .

15 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

At least it's got my right arm in the picture 😂

Don't think they had cameras when I got first scope, can't even remember what it was, some awful plastic thing off Exchange & Mart 🤣

Dave

Exchange and mart! I'd forgotten about that . The pre-internet , analogue version of ebay , dodgy ads and all !

7 hours ago, KP82 said:

SW Heritage 76 is probably one of the only very few beginner scopes that would fall in your price bracket. Honestly you would be better off turning that £50 into gift vouchers (e.g. FLO vouchers) and give them to your brother so he can use them for his future scope purchase.

I second all of the above, and add this.

There are major problems at the moment (and have been for many months) for retailers to get hold of stock, as most reasonably priced telescopes are made in China. The pandemic has caused delays all down the line , and very little is in stock . There's a helpful page here

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes.html

where you can see the heritage 76, but (at the moment) the delivery date is 15-20 days ... I've found FLO estimates of delivery pretty accurate, and if you buy now, you reserve one of the instruments they expect to arrive from China within that time, but there can be no guarantees, and there are only 20 days 'till xmas ...

If you can find one in stock elsewhere snap it up. Best avoid anything sold in the £50 ish price range by catalogue stores, big camera chains or amaz. , they are more toys than telescopes. If you can't find a heritage 76 anywhere, and don't like the voucher idea, how about some binoculars and/or a book or a planisphere ?  Philips 2021 stargazing month-by-month guide to the night sky is £6.99 (sometimes discounted online ) and is a decent little book to guide observing through the coming year.

Heathetr

In answer to the original question : I think the shoe for the 'finder is usually placed at the front of the newt. tube because the simplest RDFs which are often bundled with 'scopes need some distance between eye and dot to use. On my heritage 150 ( 😀  there, I said it !) it absolutely has to be at the front because it's the only solid bit .

I bought a RACI  after two months or so of observing to get over the whole 'can see Messier object with binoculars, can't get the thing lined up for the telescope view' problem, as well as the annoyance of having to do weird crouching or interested budgie head tilting to use the thing . I have no trouble at all translating from newtonian eyepiece view to RACI  all-correct view or vice versa, and have the RDF there too as it is sometimes handy for targets I can see with the naked eye. . It never even crossed my mind that the disparity in orientation of views might be a problem, after all the RDF is always right way round, right way up ...

I bought a shoe (£5) from FLO for the RACI, and have experimented with where on the (half length heritage ) tube to put it : best place I've found by shifting it around (using sticky ads for a temporary fix) is by the balance point of the  'scope , which is convenient for balance as well as looking through. 

Now I just need to gather the courage to drill holes in my lovely little 'scope to mount the shoe properly ...

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/268057-binomate-binoviewer-instructions/

has some instructions if that helps .

This thread talks about them too

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/691376-binoviewer-problem/

This certainly is a nice place to be, due to you and people like you contributing in a thoughtful and kind way. It stands out from most discussion platforms because of that, so thank you for your long and continuing innings.

Heather

And that's how to make a telescope die of embarrassment ...😀

9 minutes ago, Cohhul said:

Thanks for your reply!

If moon gazing out of the Dobson allows me to see craters and the surface of the moon much more clearly then I am willing to sacrifice the terrestrial use. I would love to spend a lot but I am only a temporary resident here in Vietnam and transportation would be an issue if I spent big and I also have other career paths (Music Production) to waste my income on  I'm willing to spend around 200USD but as I said there aren't many outlets for purchasing here (We don't have Ebay or Amazon) just some Viet traders and these two seemed the best of what is available around my price range (Meade LightBridge Mini 82 (Dobson) or the CELESTRON SCTW-80 (Refractive)) from my short reading I am to the understanding the the bigger the diameter the more light becomes available to gaze further/more clearly.

I live in Ho Chi Minh city and it's heavily polluted here but we have the chance to see a lot of beautiful blood moons that I didn't see growing up in the UK. I need something potable to take on short trips out of the city here.

I appreciate your help and interest.

 

I love my heritage150 dob, but I think from what you say a dobsonian would not be a good choice for you. It sounds as if you really want something very compact and portable, the advantages given by a newtonian telescope (dob.s are a subset of newtonians , having a specific type of simple base) are all to do with them having a big mirror, which means a big tube, which means a heavy strong support ...

A refractor or a maksutov will be more compact light and transportable. When I was thinking about buying a telescope to supplement my dobsonian I read this detailed account of a small 'scope which might be a good match for your requirements

http://www.waloszek.de/astro_sw_mak102_e.ph

It costs under £200 in the uk, for example https://www.firstlightoptics.com/maksutov/skywatcher-skymax-102-ota.html

There is also a smaller version for £130 https://www.firstlightoptics.com/all-telescopes/skywatcher-skymax-90-ota.html

That's 'OTA' i.e optical  tube alone , no support, but it looks from the other link as if a camera tripod (easy to buy and transport,relatively inexpensive ) may well be sufficient to hold it. A proper alt az mount ( cheapest about £100 ) would be better and allow fine adjustment though.

I have not researched into refractors, so can't comment on those, I'm sure someone else will .

Good  luck with your search, and eventual viewing

Heather

2 hours ago, jackp93 said:

Hi all

Before I splash out on a dedicated astro camera, which I really want an excuse to get. I would like to take a picture of the conjunction. Will this set up work and let me get both planets in the frame.

 

Sky watcher skymax 127

Asiair pro trying out the new video setting 

Zwo 120 Mc-s colour 

 

Thanks in advance

 

Jack

2 hours ago, TerryMcK said:

Run it through Stellarium as that will show you the apparent FOV with your target.

Yep, stellarium oculars plug in is a very handy tool : input your 'scope and eyepiece info for visual and camera stats for imaging and select your target, then you can run through your equipment and get a good idea of what you will see. Run the time forward to see how it changes too.

Heather

11 hours ago, malc-c said:

The problem is that people often see images like this one of Mars, taken by a fellow Letchworth and District AS member, Simon Kidd and then want to get the same but then get shocked at the cost of the equipment needed

 

Look back through similar posts where people want to get into imaging and you will see that most recommended setups are four figures minimum... It's normally something like a 200P or 4" apro on an HEQ5 or EQ6, guide scopes with dedicated guide cameras, and fully computer controlled to automate the process, and that's before adding the cost of a camera.  Granted people have managed to get acceptable results form lower spec equipment, but often its after a lot of fuffing around.  More often the results are disappointing because of the limitations of the equipment used.  The reason an HEQ5 costs almost a grand is due to the greater precision over the EQ5, the greater load capacity and the fact that it's designed for imaging use.

The bottom line is that if you want to get decent results without the hassle then you have to invest in decent capable equipment.  And yes I'm speaking from experience.  I purchased a 200P on a goto EQ5, with a view to bolting on a DSLR camera to do some imaging.  It soon became clear that  its tracking was not precise enough even with good polar alignment, and a guide scope would be  needed.  But the mount was already on its weight limit....so I purchased an HEQ5 with an ST80 and GHY5... even second hand I still lost money compared to buying the HEQ5 / 200P  in the first place, even after selling the EQ5.  Inspired by the images Simon gets with his 14" scope I tried stacking barlows to get the high magnification, and even on Jupiter which is a lot larger than Mars, the results were very disappointing... it proved that my rig wasn't set up to get seriously details planetary images.  It does however get me nice images of DSO's

 

 

A decent camera lens fitted to one of the new £350 tracking heads such as the Star Adventure (provided the combined weight doesn't exceed the payload capacity will also give you some nice wide field views of constellations and bright DSO's.  You won't get much in the way of planetary images other than the moon and the sun (with decent solar filters).

  

 

Anyway... Not really sure why I've just spent another 30 minutes typing up this post.... considering you've made your mind up....and most of what I've suggested is probably not what you were hoping to pay.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do, but as the Dragons say " I'm out !" 

 

I mentally went through a very similar course to malc-c. when considering astronomical photography.  I may be a relative beginner (have owned my first proper scope for only 6 months) but have the starting position that astronomy was part of my degree course (long ago), and been a serious photographer for over 30 years, worked as a full time professional photographer for a decade too. So I'm familiar with optics, cameras, lenses, photo software etc. as well as the basics of astronomy. I already have DSLRs , hefty tripods, an intervalometer and a laptop which I reserve solely for imaging use. But ...many hours of investigation showed me that to get, set up,  and maintain the extra kit I'd need for a rig to do astro photo properly I'd have to sell my house to afford it. I read up on other folk's attempts and learned from them, so I didn't need to repeat their missteps and frustrations.

I got hooked on visual astronomy for an initial cost of just £200 though, and that's enough of an obsession for now. I can stick a Nikon awkwardly on a telescope and take a souvenir snap of the moon when I feel like it, or do some landscape pics of a comet with a camera lens and stack them to get a vaguely acceptable image ,and that's enough for now. I might buy a star adventurer at some point in the future to park a DSLR on top of, but that is as far as I expect to go .

Yes, I'm out too !

1 hour ago, Aquavit said:

This week I received delivery of my Sky-Watcher MAK 102 with EQ1 mount and tripod. I have assembled everything, aligned the red dot finder and set the latitude to 47 degrees on the mount.

When aligning the red dot on a target I notice that the image is reversed left to right, I assume this is "normal" albeit a little disorientating. Is there a way of correcting this?

Yes, I think the skymax maks all ship with  what is called an erecting prism diagonal, I guess because they are popular for birdwatching etc as wel as astronomy. This means the view is the right way up, but reversed left/right. It may be good for daytime use, but if you are used to a newtonian reflector (which flips the image upside down) it's a pain to adjust to , my Moon map is the wrong way up ! (most Moon maps have S at the top , not N)  I have a 'star diagonal' on my wishlist to turn the view in my mak the right (wrong !) way up.  As valleyman said, you won't notice the left/right when observing the skies other than when using such maps,.

The red dot finder is just a light superimposed on the sky by a sort of optical illusion, it , no lenses , mirrors or prisms involved, so appears correctly, left=left , up=up etc.

1 hour ago, Aquavit said:

Tomorrow night promises clear skies so that will probably be mine and the scopes debut. I will be looking at the Moon, Mars and, if not too low, Jupiter and Saturn. All easy to find just by swinging the scope around and using the red dot. That will probably be sufficient for a first attempt but looking further ahead what DSO's would be easy to find and present a good viewing opportunity given the constraints of my scope?

I recently bought the 127 mak , and have not had much time with it yet, too many clouds ! However, I have managed the Moon (which is stunning) , and Mars too, you are right, they are easy to get lined up with the red dot. Saturn and Jupiter are very low in the sky for me , so the view is not great, but you may be able to at least see them, just not in much detail.

I bought the mak specifically to use for planets, my first telescope is a heritage 150 dobsonian which has a wider field of view and is better for DSOs, but I have sneaked a peek at the Pleiades and the Orion Nebula with the mak and both are easy to find in the sky and as you can see them with the naked eye, they are easy to line up with the RDF.

Sorry, I can't comment on the eq mount, I use alt/az !

Good luck , hope the sky clears for you !

Well, I'm no help with this one, sorry !

I've run stellarium back & forward , and it didn't show a satellite passing particularly close to Mars (there was the ISS some way off just after 6pm, but that zaps along a lot faster and I'm sure you'd have I.D.'d that )

I'd guess either a satellite or bit of space junk with flat faces rotating so the sunlight reflects off it, or the Martians letting us know they are invading ...

5 minutes ago, Moonshed said:

Comparatively speaking of course because nothing to do with astronomy is free from frustration, even if it’s only the weather causing it.

Comparatively free , I'll give you that !