F15Rules

9 minutes ago, Pixies said:

Crystal-clear here. First proper frost, too. Scope just out cooling.

The forecast is for clouds from midnight, just when the moon sets. Auriga clusters for me tonight!

It looked pretty clear here too..the transparency wasn't the problem, it was the seeing that was awful..

I hope you find the seeing working for you later👍

Dave

I was so anticipating a good session tonight. Cold and clear forecast here in the Lincs Wolds, and looked very promising..that was at 7 20pm.

It's now almost 9pm and I'm about to admit defeat. Although the sky is clear and looks fairly transparent to the naked eye and in the finder, it's just a defocused mess in the scope, even at 40x.

I tried the moon, like a jelly at the edges, Albireo, poor, Deneb and Delta Cygni all poor. 

I waited for Orion to get up a bit but no joy there either. In my FS128 I could barely resolve the 4 Trapezium stars, and then only as vague blobs, not the scintillating points I'm used to seeing.

I was so worried there was something wrong with the scope that I got the Vixen 4" F10 achromat out, and it was just the same.

So I have to just write off tonight sadly, but hopefully it's just turmoil in the sky and atmosphere rather than any scope faults.

It's sad, as our forecast for next week is end to end cloud..

Has anyone else who's out tonight seen lousy seeing? I really don't recall anything this poor, at any time! 

Dave

10 minutes ago, Franklin said:

Nice collection of scopes Dave.

What was the name and spec of the alt-az mounted Vixen whose photo is between the Unitron and the Telementor?

Hi Tim,

I think you should now see the model under the scope image. A Pulsar 102mm F13 achromat. It was in very good condition when I bought it on Fleabay probably 8-10 years ago.

Sadly this one was a disappointment optically (the only Vixen scope I've owned that has ever come up short..at F13 I had high hopes for it, but images were soft. I had the lens checked out by ES Read, who said that the outer 5-6mm zone of the objective was letting the rest of a decent lens down. He made me a simple 90mm aperture mask for the lens, and it made a big difference to the performance of the lens..very sharp, but now operating at 90mm and F14.7!!

I sold the scope a bit later, with full disclosure..the buyer actually wanted to buy the scope as a display piece for his London flat, and wasn't intending to actually use it!! He won the scope on eBay and drive up from London to Leicestershire where I then lived, to pick the scope up. A truly strange episode..

Dave

At the moment I have just two "long" focus refractors:

Vixen SP102m F10 (probably late 1980s) and Carton Japan 60mm F11.8

...but I've also owned quite a few more over the years...

"Moonrakered" Meade 339 80mm F15 - Double Star Killer

Pentax Japan J-80 80mm F12 - Superb scope!

D&G USA 5" F15. "Andromeda", now lovingly owned by Steve (Saganite) - wonderful achromat

Perfex" 60mm F15 - made I think by Yamamoto. Beautiful and cute little scope

Tal 100mm F10 -  a legendary scope, I've owned at least 5 of these!

TMB "Planet Hunter" 80mm F11 - sometimes known as Planet Killer - a silly title for an 80mm scope, but capable of wonderful views

Towa "Topic" 80mm F16 - optically superb on doubles, original tripod very unsteady, but a great scope on a Vixen SP or GP mount- identical I believe to Meade 339

1980s Unitron Polarex 4" F15..why oh why did I ever sell this??? one of the best engineered eq mounts Ive ever seen..

Vixen Pulsar 102mm F13 achromat on original altazimuth mount with uber long slo motions - a rare scope

Zeiss Telementor - a legend of the 1980s, superb optically for a 60mm

Vixen 80M ...F10 or F11s I recall, a nice, altaz mounted achromat from Japan.

My SGL handle F15 Rules might make more sense now, even though these days my main scope is a wonderful F8.1 Takahashi FS128..

Dave

On 04/12/2021 at 22:59, AdeKing said:

Absolutely @JeremyS T for Towa 🤣

Pronounced "Tower"?? 

Dave

I put this in the "What did you see tonight" forum, but maybe it should have gone in here instead?🤔.

Jupiter, Moon, Saturn and Venus as seen from my friends' guest bedroom in Northumberland.. a lovely sight visually, and a couple of shots taken with my Moto G8..

Dave

From our friends' bedroom window facing south-west between c 5.10 and 5.20pm.

Moto G8 phone, 3 planets, L-R Jupiter, Saturn, Venus and the crescent Moon..😊

Dave

10 hours ago, Greymouser said:

Well, they are about the same price, but offer very different things. One is going to be bought shortly, but which one?

The Starfield just looks so good, seems to ooze quality, but I have an issue with it: Can I justify it when I already have a very good 102, the Bresser AR-102L, which at F13.2 shows no CA at all? It also has a very good focuser and is a very much underrated scope.  The only problem with it that it is very long ( ! ) and means I really need to use the extension for my Sky Tee. It is very good though and except for portability, I am not sure how the Starfield will improve on it? I also have a very good C5, which is even more portable than the Starfield. 

As for the light bucket, whilst it will show a lot more than my C9.25, it is very bulky and heavy, which as I get older is going to be a huge problem I suspect. My health now, tells me it could be a problem from the get go. Realistically I would have to store it the shed full time, which would just make me so nervous, what with damp etc.. Then there is the problem of justifying that scope too, considering my Bortle 6 skies.

Which way do you clever people think I should go? Or maybe some other alternative I have no considered? I had been considering a Meade LX 200 8" OTA, but as that has just gone up in price, ( a lot, ) that is a no go now.

Thank you in anticipation.

 

I think you've already provided not only the very good question, but also the most sensible answers..

Getting older and/or frailer is not much fun, to be sure, but it does force us to be realistic. Also, space limitations do have to be faced, and good optics and possible damp conditions don't mix at all well.

"The scope you will use most is best scope for you" is often quoted for a good reason..also, so is "The scope that's easiest to use is the scope you will use the most"!

So, all logic points to the Starfield 4". If you really also crave views of faint fuzzies from time to time, and other dimmer objects, see if there is an astro club or group within reach of you, where you could look through someone else's Dob, and maybe also take your Starfield with you and thrill someone else once in a while as well👍😊.

Good luck with your decision, but don't take for ever, those Starfields  seem to be selling rather quickly!

Dave

We're up in Northumberland at the mo, visiting friends who've just moved close to Amble on the coast..

We had a bonus clear spell last night, quite unexpectedly.

My friend Chris asked me if we could go out with the binoculars..his new home has a due south outlook, almost completely unobstructed for 180 degrees, and Bortle 4 skies, just 2 mile's from the sea. So I gave him a tour of some celestial lollipops for almost an hour, with both my Vixen 8x32 roof bins and my tripod mounted Orion Mini Giant 9x63 porros.

M42 was superb, as was Praesepe, the Auriga clusters, Pleiades, Hyades, Double Cluster, Mizar and Castor & Pollux. A really enjoyable little session and Chris was well enthused by what he saw.

Sometimes the totally unexpected sessions are the most rewarding👍😉.

Dave

3 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

Not sure I could handle pics of that Dave.

Nor will you EVER have to Jeremy!!😂😂..

(Nice piece of "text photoshopping" btw!)..

Dave

Yes, John, nice looking set👍.

I've heard of those, made in Japan, but never tried them..did you, John?

Dave

3 hours ago, F15Rules said:

The Luminos are NOT the same as the Axiom LX range, made by different manufacturers. The originals, the Axiom LX, are significantly better. 

The Axioms are very similar to the ES range, just as good in my experience and very sharp in my F8 apo.

Dave

 

Further to the above, and for interest, here's a link that tells a bit more about the story of Axiom LX..

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/707836-how-did-celestron-axioms-differ-from-the-luminos/

I have decloaked both my 23mm and 31mm (fully reversible process) and rate both highly👍

Top 2 photos fully cloaked. Bottom photo uncloaked, next to Nagler T2 12mm for comparison. The decloaking saves about 35% of the original weight.

Dave😉

3 hours ago, rwilkey said:

The Luminos are not too bad, I owned them in their previous incarnation, Axiom LX's 7, 10 & 23mm, although I have sold the 23mm now, but they are reasonable, but I also have the ExSc 82 degree series, which are much better both on axis and sharp to the edge.  I would recommend these to anyone. 

The Luminos are NOT the same as the Axiom LX range, made by different manufacturers. The originals, the Axiom LX, are significantly better. 

The Axioms are very similar to the ES range, just as good in my experience and very sharp in my F8 apo.

Dave

There's no doubt that some old bins are still optically quite good if they've been looked after well..brands such as Swift (Audobons), Tento (most models) and Pentax/Asahi Pentax and Zeiss (Aus Jena) are worth considering.

But IMHO, modern construction and coatings have left most old 1960s - 1980s bins far behind.

I was reminded of this when I found a modem pair of Vixen Apex Pro 8.5x32 roof prism bins online, used, a couple of years back. I'd never tried a pair of roof prisms, but I was amazed by their performance for such small binos. Wider 7-8degree fov, comfortable ergonomics, great coatings,  bright images, low chromatic aberration levels (they are ordinary achro lenses, but very sharp) and great contrast.

I paid less for the Vixen's in used, but immaculate condition, than the price used prices many of the above older brands go for, often for quite tatty examples, and yet these modern little bins leave many of these oldies standing.

Also, some of the modern (and I hate to say it) Chinese entry level budget bins from the likes of Opticron, Nikon and Olympus are also very good for not too much cash.

Take at look at Steve Tonkins' (Binocular Sky) website at some of his reviews..you can trust that he knows his stuff and what makes a good (and bad) pair of starter bins.

Dave

37 minutes ago, jock1958 said:

I think your right, my WO BV’s came with the 1.6x nosepiece but haven’t seen it sold separately. 

You may be right John and Iain..I bought mine years ago from Astro boot..it was definitely sold to me as a WO 1.6x nosepiece, and I paid £20 for it! (that was in the good old days when Astro Boot were based in the UK and offered a lot of genuine bargains!).

Dave

+1 for the William Optics one. I have a 1.6x version. I also have a Baader Hyperion zoom Barlow 2.25x, not cheap but excellent optically..

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/barlow-eyepieces/baader-hyperion-zoom-barlow.html

The top section marked T2 unscrews to reveal a 1.25" thread which threads into the nosepiece of the binoviewer. Of course, it can also be used in a Baader zoom eyepiece, should you ever buy one, by means of the T2 adapter mentioned above.

Dave

19 hours ago, Ags said:

.. is the Altair Ascent really that good? Price is no way to judge a scope, but it is a lot cheaper than a Tak, and there has to be a reason?

 

cos it's not a Tak?

Dave

Hi Stardaze,

I'm not sure what you mean by "are there masks for bins"? ..if you're referring to the Covid mask I mentioned, I just use my ordinary cloth mask that I bought during the pandemic..it's not perfect, but does seem to help with my particular bins. As you can see from the last photo, I have my BBandits snug up against the bin's eyepiece rubber caps, and I like to get my eyes in quite close to the EP rubber caps..I do realise, though, that that is probably the position most likely to contribute to fogging up.. sometimes, the only way I can make it work (especially in damp conditions) is to have a few minutes Bino observing, and then give them a rest to defog naturally while observing through my scope..(not ideal, I know).

I don't clip up my BBs, just personal preference, but I should say that the pictures were taken soon after I bought the BBs.. they're a little less pristine now, although have held their shape pretty well.

I think that this sort of product, by it's nature, will probably be sort of "semi-disposable", ie might need to be replaced every couple of years, more if heavily used? I don't know if they wash well, but I imagine that wouldn't help their shape retention!😱😊.

Dave

I bought a pair of Bino Bandits back in February for use with my Orion Mini Giant 9x63s on a Ravelli (Amazon) tripod with centre column. A great combination for me with a nicely corrected 5 degree field, excellent Japanese optics (very little CA at all) and solid centre focusing. They are still available, still MIJ, and also available as a 15x63 version (full aperture, no stopping down).

I read Steve Tonkins' mini review of the Bino Bandits, and the only real negative he mentioned was a slight tendency to fog up on very cold nights. I agree with Steve on this point: I find wearing a Covid type mask useful, as it is the exhalation of warm air onto the vicinity of the eyepieces' that I think causes the fogging up.

The gain in contrast and general elimination of stray light is remarkable when you see it for the first time. I think they would work well on binoviewers too, I intend to try this soon on mine.

My bins don't have Independent Focusing, but your problem does sound as if your focusers are too loose..I had a pair of Kunming BA8 10.5x50s several years back which had IF, but they did not move at all between sessions.. I didn't have the Binobandits at that time though, so couldn't say for sure that they wouldn't move the IF focusing point a little..but I doubt it.

I almost always use my bins with the tripod, the combination is so light and easy to use, and the centre column/adjustable legs  combination allows a great range of height adjustment, whether seated or standing.

IMHO any pair of high quality Kunming BA8 type bins are so heavy that they need a tripod to really get the best from them. The combination of tripod and Binobandits has transformed my enjoyment of using binoculars for astro use👍.

Dave

Thanks John, I slept pretty well, I felt, but Mrs Dave informed me that I was snoring a lot! - something I rarely do normally..🥴

It was VERY cold here last night, a hard frost, but lovely and clear. I do hope you and your Dob had a good session?😊👍

Dave

1 hour ago, Stu said:

Whilst I am enjoying this thread, I’m getting pretty exhausted by it

Me too, Stu. 

I've a heavy cold following two virus jabs in two weeks, and a session of the Norovirus a couple of days ago..wouldn't you know it, the sky is super clear here tonight, and I doubt I have the energy to lift my decloaked Axiom 31mm, never mind my FS128 and mount!

So I'm going to thank everyone for an interesting thread, and John for posting the original one...now, what was it about?? Ah, yes, "Why do really expensive scopes sell and what attracts us to them ?"..that was it!!🥴😁.

I'm off to bed!😂

Dave

On CN they have a dedicated Classic scopes forum..we had one on SGL some years ago but sadly it was discontinued...not sure why?

I think that over here we tend to think of particular scope models as classic, usually because they were game changing or widely acknowledged as being innovative or in the top of their class.

Sometimes they weren't fully recognised until years after they were introduced. A few examples I'd like to offer, leaving out those scopes already mentioned where possible?

- Skywatcher Heritage 130 reflector..the first introduction to astronomy for many modern, younger enthusiasts, in very much the same way that 60mm F15 refractors from Japan were for the older generation such as mine.

- Vixen SP102 - the "aspirational" scope for many a young stargazer in the 1980s - and considered a "serious" scientific instrument for amateurs.

- Charles Frank 6" reflector. Same as for the Vixen above.

- Televue Genesis. A modern era classic scope both beautiful to look at and optically excellent.

- Takahashi FS series refractors. I know I'm biased, having an FS128, but these "Front Surface" (FS) fluorite doublets were genuine game changers, offering for the first time a design that allowed the synthetic fluorite front lens element to be hard coated, this allowing the optimal doublet lens design for contrast and colour control, with a robust protection for the Front Surface lens.

The FS102 4" version is especially well regarded and arguably contributed greatly to the race for more affordable visually apochromatic refractors, ultimately brought to the "masses" by Synta's FPL53 ED100 range - another classic IMHO.

I also believe that Lzos triplets as worked on by Thomas Back can be considered classics.

Intes/Lomo/Intes Micro Maksutovs and Maksutovs Newtonians from Russia.. brought close-to-apo refractor performance to the market at much lower prices than most early apos.

I'm sure many more good examples can be cited, but for me the definition of a classic scope isn't defined by age, it's defined by performance, reputation among it's peers, and a concensus that it made a real contribution to the furtherance of great scopes for amateurs around the world...however old it is or isn't 🙂

Dave

On 30/11/2021 at 11:55, JeremyS said:

Classic? Think this rules out mirror scopes

🤣

That's rather unfair, Jeremy, and factually incorrect..upon reflection, you may reflect upon this: the Latin Phrase "Naves infundibulum" means "Ships funnel"..Latin being now a dead language is proof positive that "Ships funnels" (or Reflector Telescopes as they are often known today) were in existence hundreds of years ago.

As such, they can clearly be regarded as "Classic"..😊👍

Dave

30 minutes ago, Deadlake said:

Tak and Vixens scopes cost around the same in Japan, the price difference is on treasure island. 😃

One question around the focusing in the doublets you have used, does the FS128 keep the subject in focus other a greater range compared to the Vixen doublet? I find my LZOS triplet easier to focus as it’s focus range is greater then doublets I have used. e.g., on Jupiter I would have to adjust the focuser less with the LZOS compared to a doublet.

I never noticed a significant difference in the "in and out" focuser range on either scope, but I haven't actually measured the exact travel either.

The scopes were F7.7 (Vixen) and F8.1 (Tak) so I would imagine they'd both have similar depth of focus?

I always found my long achromats had great depth of focus, and assumed that dual focusers came in with modern short focus (F7 or faster) as they could be difficult to get to snap focus without the micro focus capability.

I fitted an MEF3 focuser to my Tak and this did definitely make high power fine focus much easier.. but bear in mind that at 5" vs 4" and 1040mm vs 795mm focal length, the Tak can take significantly higher magnification than the Vixen.

The Vixen single speed focus on both examples I had were so smooth that I rarely used the dual speed facility on the one that had it fitted.

HTH,

Dave

1 minute ago, vlaiv said:

That is great input.

Having that experience, do you think that current price difference between two scopes is justified?

Truthfully? No.

But let me qualify that.

1. I've never bought a really top end scope new..in the past I just didn't have the cash to do so, family commitments, mortgage etc etc.

Ironically, now that I maybe could afford to do so (crawling on hands and knees to my wife first!😂🤣), I don't feel the need to..if you buy used with care, you can get a scope that's been well looked after and that will last you for years to come, for much less than the new price.

2. I do think that Vixen loses out in the UK at least, because they are caught in between the top price, top reputation brands like Tak, TEC, Tele Vue, Lzos, AP etc and more mainstream brands such as Skywatcher, Celestron, Meade, Bresser, etc.

Also, they do offer "cheap" versions of some of their scopes, made in China, but not visibly better than the "authentic" Chinese made brands, and this kind of devalues their reputation in some people's minds..any marketing professional will tell you that you never "dilute" your main brand by confusing customers with a cheap brand carrying your main brands name. That's why Toyota's premium brand cars are branded Lexus, for example.

3. If I was interested in buying a top class refractor today, I would not buy new..I'd wait for someone to offer what I was looking for, used, and be patient. Even AP Starfire's come up for sale now and again!😊👍.

Dave