F15Rules

57 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Only issue with that is - take set of measuring devices and if calibrated properly - they produce the same answer each time.

Take set of Mark I eyeballs - and no matter the calibration - you get whole range of answers

Yes, that's so true..I was being a bit flippant.

My two eyes are now so different (my right eye has deteriorated in recent years) that I've now had to learn to observe with my left eye in cyclops mode, and increasingly I use binoviewers where two eyes together do seem to compensate somehow for the failings in my right eye..

Dave

3 hours ago, vlaiv said:

Can we break down why are expensive telescopes expensive?

- Optical performance

- Mechanical fit&finish

- Value depreciation over time?

- "Lust factor" / "availability" / "status" ?

Ok, I'll have a go, Vlaiv..

You mentioned 4" scopes and my Tak FS128 is a 5", so I've picked a high quality (expensive) 4" apo I used to own (in fact I've owned 2 of them)..Vixen ED103s - a 103mm F7.7 doublet commonly believed to be FPL53, but officially Vixen don't seem to declare the glass type. They certainly used fluorite in their legendary FL102s F9 refractor, sourcing the fluorite lens sets from Canon Optron I believe - same as Takahashi.

Point 1. Vixen has a reputation for excellent optics. I believe they are still the market leading brand in Japan. The two examples I had were superb visually. I had one of them for a while when I had also the Tak FS128, so was able to do a comparison..whilst the Tak was "better" in terms of light grasp and brighter images, I can't honestly say that the image quality (airy disk presentation, colour free in-focus, contrast, sharpness on axis and edge to edge etc was any better in the Tak. If a Vixen "ED128s" had been available, and of the same optical quality, I would have happily bought one.

Point 2. Mechanical fit and finish. 

Here, the Vixen is a step down from the Tak. The finish is good, but it didn't have an adjustable objective cell which can thermally react to extremes of temperature, as the Tak does (although here in the UK the Vixen never showed any cell related issues).

The tube paint finish was slightly less good than the Tak. The focuser was superb on mine - better than the Tak. Both tubes were very lightweight for their aperture..3.6kg for the Vixen, 7.5kg for the Tak (the Tak is a big tube, although light).

The tube rings on the Vixen were a good step down on the Taks' superb clamshell ring..no contest here.

The Vixen finder was nice, the Tak finder was amazing..but both were straight through, and I changed them both for RACI models! I know the Japanese like straight through viewing - but we Brits don't! 

Point 3: Value Depreciation over time

Here, the Tak wins hands down. After 5 years of ownership, I'm confident that my FS128 would be worth virtually what I paid for it, used. However, that's a test the scope will never have to face in my lifetime, as I won't ever sell it (my kids may well do so!!🥴😱😂).

The Vixen loses here as they lose between c 50% and 65% of their value versus new cost, in my experience. By way of example, my first ED103s cost approximately £1575 new, and I bought it from the original owner for c £700.

The second ED103s was c12 years old when I bought it on ebay. It was in a sorry state, covered in dust (it had sat in the deceased owners' observatory for months before his son got around to selling it off), and I paid £350 for it (I took a chance on it being optically ok). It came with an original bill of sale from Orion Optics in 2006 for almost £1300!  I spent some hours taking it apart and cleaning it up. It looked almost new when I had finished with it, and I sold it with a couple of extras, a couple of years later (and with full disclosure) for £625. This one had a simply superb single speed focuser.

The good news about the Vixen's depreciation is that on both occasions I was able to buy a wonderful, premium scope for far less than it's new cost. That would never be possible with a Tak!

Point 4:

Lust factor/availability/status

I suppose lust factor played a part in my buying decisions for both the Vixen's and the Tak..I've always liked Vixen equipment (including their mounts), and I'd always aspired to a similar or better quality 5" "one scope to do all" scope. When I read Roger Vine's review of the Tak FS128 (see scope reviews.co.uk) and others on Cloudy Nights, I was smitten with desire for one 🥰😂).

"Availability" - they were both available on the used market at a time when I was in the market, and at a price that I felt I could afford. I wouldn't have owned either of them if I'd had to buy them new (the FS128 OTA was £4k new in 1999!).

Status: not important to me...I was more interested in Brand Reputation. This is where the internet is such a useful tool, a real mine of helpful information on sites like SGL, to help inform our decisions.

That's my input..make of it what you will😊.

Dave

51 minutes ago, neil phillips said:

Which really begs the question. what is the most reliable form of optics testing

How about Mark I eyeballs?

Works for me😊

Dave

Here's my pair..

1995 Fender Strat '57 Reissue Made in Japan (like the best scopes, LOL😂). Bought for my 40th birthday by my wife, and my family bought a matching Fender hardshell case. Cost £300 in a sale (down from £400), and a fraction of the US built ones..I love it. Has maple neck and interesting "Fuji Flame" photoflame finish to mimick Flame Maple top (which never actually was part of the original 1957 Strat line!).

2004 Marlique (Indonesia) Reborn Series "Broken Wings" model.

This was my SGL avatar for a good few years..

Gibson SG style, twin Plasma II humbuckers. Again, a photoflame type finish on a solid mahogany body and rosewood fingerboard. Cost me £400 with hard case in 2004. This one has coil tap and rocks like a Gibson.

I just wish I could play them both much better!😂

Dave

46 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

No need to go to Arizona desert to do such test. All you need is stretch of grass about 200m long where you can on the one end put a smart phone or tablet on a stand and on the other scopes in question.

You'll then need very sharp planetary eyepiece (good ortho), good lens, about x10 focal length of eyepiece (this does not need to be very precise) and DSLR. A piece of black cloth acting as a shroud between eyepiece and lens will be needed as well.

Put image of favorite planet - let's say Jupiter on the phone, aim the scope at the phone and focus image as best you can, put DSLR + lens at the back of the scope where eye would go. Make sure no outside light gets into lens except what comes out of eyepiece (use sleeve/shroud for that) and take image.

Do that with every scope and only processing that you should do to images would be to reduce their size (resample them) to optimum sampling rate for particular DSLR - or even simpler - make Jupiter look right size on the screen and reduce size of each image the same.

Then compare images for similarities and differences. Of course - you can also do visual assessment and testing against various targets - either on phone, or maybe some small piece of fruit placed on a tripod (so called nut test )

Sounds fascinating Vlaiv...  but I think I'd find it simpler (probably not cheaper though!) to go to the Arizona desert!🥴😊

Dave

2 hours ago, Mark at Beaufort said:

What John stated above it would be great to compare the Altair Starwave 102ED-R , Tak FC100-DF. and the new FLO's Starfield ED102 side by side.

+1 for that suggestion, Mark, would be very interesting!

It would also be interesting to do that exact same comparison both here in UK conditions, and also somewhere with "ideal" conditions, such as the Arizona desert: I suspect that the latter conditions would allow any real superiority of the Tak optics to be more obvious to observers..too often here in the UK, atmospheric conditions are so often the limiting factor as to what we can see with any scope!

..if I am right in this, it really does beg the question -"Why do we buy such expensive scopes if our skies will never let them perform to their absolute potential??" 😱🥴😂

Dave

2 hours ago, Franklin said:

Astronomy is a science that is made up essentially of numerical data and musical composition is completely mathematical as well.

Very interesting Tim..I agree with you on the above, but I myself don't fit that bill..I failed Maths O level twice (never did pass!), but I am good with arithmetic...I can't read music but have a good ear for tuning and can keep a beat..I reckon I might even be a bit dyslexic, as I find written instructions hard to follow if I buy a new TV for instance, but find watching a video tutorial or being shown how to do something much more comfortable.

I think another connection between the two disciplines is an emotional response: I've always liked music that touches me inside..in my case it's mainly rock music and guitar in particular..artists such as Paul Kossoff, Rory Gallagher, Robin Trower, Myles Kennedy and Mark Tremonti pull out sounds that make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. So do vocalists like Paul Rodgers, Eddie Vedder, Myles Kennedy, Amy Lee and Ian Gillan, to name but a few.

In Astronomy, my observing reactions are much more emotional than "scientific": I am blown away by the variety, the beauty and sheer scale of what I'm looking at, and it makes me marvel at how wonderful is the Universe that we are a small part of.

(Sorry to veer a bit off topic John!😱🙂).

Dave

A great read...thank you!👍

Dave

Hi Tim,

My FS128 is a 1999 build..the mount is a 1998. It's a similar quoted load capacity to a Vixen GPDX (c 10kg), but as with most Tak mounts they are quite conservatively rated. 

The scope is 7.5kg bare bones, with finder and eyepiece c 8.5-9kg, and a binoviewer pushes it up to around 9.5-10kg..absolutely fine for visual, but probably a bit much for imaging (I'm visual only).

Dave

Thanks, Sunshine😊.

I do have to confess that I no longer have the original  dark wood tripod..I found it not quite stable enough for the FS128 (I think it was originally recommended for scopes up to 4", such as the FS102).

Trinity now sits on a much more beefy home built (not by me!) fixed height tripod with Berlebach spreader/eyepiece holder.

I can't deny that the original tripod was pretty though!👍.

Dave

On 26/11/2021 at 20:35, John said:

This is a genuine question that I have been asking myself for the past 5 years or so but I'm still unsure what the answer is.

We have access to some excellent scopes these days for great prices and yet there seems to be unabated enthusiasm still for similar specified scopes from the really expensive marques.

My personal experience seems to indicate that the actual performance differences between moderately expensive scope and one of the really expensive versions amount to perhaps 5% or so (depends on how you quantify performance I suppose) but the price differential is often very much more than that - sometime 2x or 3x as expensive.

So what is it that motivates quite a number of us (including myself) to want to own these expensive instruments ?.

My best guess is that, once you have been in the hobby for some time, you develop a burning curiosity to see "what the fuss is all about" with these highly reputed brands. With widespread reporting, through forums such as SGL, I think expectations on what they deliver are, broadly well managed so there is no expectation that whole new target areas will become attainable but it is more about an enthusiasts desire to be using something that is, or is close to, as "good as it gets" within it's niche.

I'd be very interested in others views on this though, both those who have "taken the plunge" and those who have not

I've avoided the terms "premium" and "top end" deliberately because I'm not sure that they are helpful.

What a fascinating thread John👍..

Just to offer a very personal perspective? I think that the time of life plays an important role in informing our scope purchase decisions.

For example, many of us got into the hobby as teenagers, back in the 1960s and 70s..in those days, the 60mm long focus achromats were almost always the starting point for scope ownership, as they were relatively affordable, but never what I'd call really cheap for working class families..

My first proper scope, a Prinz 550 60mm F15 refractor from Dixon's Photographic store in Coventry, cost £39.95 in c 1972. At the time that was about a weeks wages for my dad, and my parents bought it for me for Christmas on the basis that they paid £20, and I would pay the balance on credit over 9months from my Saturday job pumping petrol.

I was so chuffed with that scope..it was a decent Circle T lens, and came with eq mount, finder, wooden tripod and several 0.965" eyepieces. It showed me so much, and my first view of Saturn and it's rings is etched forever in my memory.

At that time, I'd never heard of an "apochromatic" scope at all, or "chromatic aberration"..indeed, my then astro books such as the Observer's Book of Astronomy taught me, in the late, great Sir Patrick Moores' own words, that Vega "is a beautiful bluish white star" in Lyra..I had no inkling that my scope (and most other refractors of the time) were actually adding the bluish tinge to the image! Even my then "dream scope", a Vixen SP102m 4" F10 refractor was an achromat, and in the 80s it would have cost around £750 for a complete setup including Super Polaris or Great Polaris mount - simply out of the question for youngsters like me...we could drool over the adverts though!😂

Anyway, I had the scope for about 3 years, and sold it as I began to get interested in rock music (and girls😁), and started to learn to play guitar, and joined a band..after that, I got married, into buying a house, better job etc etc, and didn't really come back to the hobby seriously until my 40s, by which time, although I was earning reasonable wages, I had 3 children under 12, and so not a lot of spare cash for scopes.

When I finally did get into a position to buy another scope, I went for another achromat, as that was what I knew, but over time as I read more magazines and later the early internet, I discovered ED "semi apos" and full apos, which were at mind boggling costs (I recall the Vixen Atlux 6" ED refractor was around £4000-5000 all in, and bigger Televue scopes were if anything even dearer).

It was when Celestron and Synta began to offer their ED100 4" F9 scopes at far more affordable prices that I began to really take notice, and over the early 2000s onwards I owned several of these great scopes..the build quality was not in the same league as the Vixen SP102 etc...but the ED glass was excellent, and you could now get a relatively short F9 4" visually virtually colour free scope at a far lower price than ever before.

As my family circumstances and finances improved, I was able to aspire to scopes like the wonderful Vixen ED and FL ranges (always bought used), and I also began to crave a bit more aperture..

I had a very nice Meade AR 127 F9 achromat, which was excellent for the cost, and I came to feel that a 5" refractor, for me, would be all I could ever want. But the introduction to ED glass also made me want colour free 5" viewing.

I did buy a wonderful 5" D&G F15 refractor, which I significantly upgraded, and it was the first scope I ever spent over £1000 on, including all the mods (done superbly by Mark Turner at Moonraker). This scope, now quite familiar to some members here on SGL, "Andromeda" was and is a superb performer, very nearly visually colour free, at F15 (1905mm!!), and could have been my lifetime scope.

Sadly, however, I had to let her go due to the physical difficulty of mounting her properly (almost 2m long), and the fact that I was diagnosed with 2 hernias (not the scope's fault!). 

So Andromeda found a great new home with Steve (@saganite) here on SGL, and I began to look for a more manageable high quality 5" refractor (once you've looked through a good 5", it is HARD to go back to a 4"!😊).

And so it was that, having read everything I could about Takahashi's legendary FS Fluorite range, I decided to set my sights on one. After quite some time (there aren't that many in the UK so far as I know,), a beautiful, mint example became available in summer 2016, complete with Takahashi EM2s mount and tripod and accessories. 

I never dreamed I could buy this wonderful set up, but thanks to the owner's willingness to hold the scope for me for as long as I needed to raise the funds, my dream scope become mine in April 2017. It took me a full 9 months to raise the funds, and involved selling most of my other astro equipment, but I have never once regretted the purchase, and, sad old git that I am, I too still pop into the storage room where "Trinity" lives (yes, I named her too!🤣) to have a quick peek and a touch..

Thanks for staying with me..my real point is, that 30-40 years ago, the pinnacle of my astro dreams was a Vixen 4" F10 achromat..scopes like the FS 128 either didn't exist in my universe, or if they did, were only found in observatories belonging to super rich people or organisations.

Since that time, financial means and availability of superbly performing scopes has pushed our aspirations upwards: I have friends who, having owned a 125cc motorbike in the 70s/80s, have now, in their 50s and 60s, returned to biking, spending £15k-£20k on a brand new Ducati, Triumph, etc - simply because they now have the means to..and besides they are now within their financial reach - families grown up, mortgages paid off, perhaps a legacy received (I wish!!) etc..

People will always aspire to the best they can afford if their means allow it.

I feel so blessed to now own my dream scope. If I never own another scope but this one, I will be quite content..it took almost 50 years from my first scope, but was so worth the wait!🤗😊

Dave

1 hour ago, JeremyS said:

Well, I think I could get a Hurd of Taks for what the wedding is costing 

My nephew got married about 6 years ago in a swanky Golf and Country Club in the Midlands.. he and his bride wanted the "full experience".

The wedding cost £25k..that's over £1000 an hour for each hour they were in the hotel (they stayed overnight)😱😱. They also had another similar wedding going on in the same venue at the same time, so it wasn't exactly "exclusive".

It was a great day, but worth £25k?? not so, IMHO. They now have a modest home of their own, but still owe money on their wedding costs, as their parents couldn't afford to fund that kind of cost.

My eldest daughter got married about the same time, and spent about £6k. They wanted a nice wedding but wanted their own home even more, and and her husband was in the middle of doing his PHD, so had no prospect of permanent long term employment with pension, holidays etc on the short term, so effectively my daughter had to be the main earner during that time. We have 3 grown up children and always treat them all the same, so we gave them all a modest sum of money in keeping with our means, and told them to use it as they saw fit.

Our eldest daughter and her husband had a wonderful day in a lovely hotel with a 12th century chapel next door for the blessing..they saved really hard while renting a tiny one bedroom flat, and within 4 years of being married had saved enough for a deposit on their own beautiful 2 bedroomed cottage in Devon.

Our youngest daughter did the same in 2018, and now has a home in Yorkshire, and our son, who is not yet married, put his towards a house deposit in the Midlands. All 3 are now homeowners. Everyone's different, and has different priorities, but I'm very proud of the way our children and their partners have set their priorities 😊.

Have a wonderful time at your own daughters' special day Jeremy, and try not to mention the word "Tak" in your speech too often!👍😂

Dave 

On 27/11/2021 at 19:40, JeremyS said:

I can see why you might think like that about the word pride, Olly. On the other hand I used it a few times earlier today (in my head, anyway) as I was drafting my Father of the Bride speech about my eldest  😊

Congratulations, Jeremy!!🤗

..which of your Taks is getting married?🍾🥂

Dave

24 minutes ago, John said:

Thanks Dave.

Since then I have moved over to eyepiece sets with Ethos or Pentax XW / Delos eyepieces at their core because I felt that these delivered both the widest views I wanted (Ethos) more eye comfort (XW / Delos) and slight performance improvements over the Naglers in the areas of sharpness, light scatter and neutral tone. The performance differences are slight though - the Naglers are excellent eyepieces.

 

 

 

Makes total sense, John.

I have really taken to my Morpheus 9mm and 17.5mm EPs, but my older Nagler T2 12mm sits beautifully in between them, is close to parfocal with the Morphs, and to my eyes gives up little or nothing to them in terms of sharpness..perhaps just a little tighter on eye relief, but comfortable for me nevertheless. I've not felt the need to replace the Nagler 12mm with the 12.5mm Morpheus.

I'm also really happy that the Pentax XWs are still available new..having owned the 5, 7, 14 and 20mm versions, I found the 5 and 7s to be outstanding eyepieces and representing great value at £249 new..I'd love to get another 5mm and also the 3.5mm at some point 😉.

Dave

30 minutes ago, John said:

This was the set that I had about 12 years ago and very fond of them I was too !:

Lovely set, John.

Looking at them, I wonder if the main difference from then and now for you is mainly just the larger fov and extra eye relief, rather than outright sharpness and contrast on axis?🤔😉

Dave

13 minutes ago, John said:

Very nice Dave

I use one of those on my Tak FC100.

Thanks John..I've been interested in trying one of these for a while..I've had the standard T2 version for some years and really like it..but in recent years my right eye has deteriorated significantly, and the main thing I notice with it is light scatter and some slight blurring, compared to my better left eye.

I've trained myself to use my left eye for Cyclops observing, and find that an eyepatch for my weaker eye works quite well..but I do like binoviewing as well, and I'm interested to see if the combination of the Zeiss prism and binoviewing can help to noticeably suppress the scatter that I see..

It will also be good to know that I'm using the best end to end optical train I can in my FS128.

I do also use my excellent Astro Tech 2" dielectric mirror diagonal a lot, so that will also make an interesting comparison..🤔

Dave

I've just upgraded my Baader T2 prism diagonal to the Zeiss BBHS T2 version. This one has 34mm free aperture Vs 32mm for the standard T2. The difference in the aperture size is very noticeable just looking at the new one. 

I just bought the bare prism from a friend here on SGL..already had the 2" nosepiece and T2 clicklock ep holder👍

Dave

4 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

The TSA 120 is nice to look at too

🤣

Too true Jeremy👍..

..and what is 8mm between friends??😎

Dave

3 hours ago, MalcolmM said:

Observing weather has been atrocious for me over the last few months and so I have taken to just using my FS60CB/Q and running outside to get a few minutes here and there between the clouds!

I managed to grab 10 minutes on the moon the other night; I just took telescope as was and ran outside ... 'as was' happened to be in Q mode with a Tak 28mm Erfle in the diagonal.

I was absolutely astonished at the amount of contrast this combination gave me. So the magnification at x21 was much less than I would normally use on the moon but the image was so sharp and contrasty I just soaked up the view for 10 minutes until the clouds came in. I never even thought to go in and get a more powerful eyepiece.

I was so impressed and taken with this high contrast combination I simply had to share  

Malcolm

 

Sharpness and Contrast..

Probably the two most important "What Counts" factors as to why buyers would choose a high quality refractor over any other type of scope..IMHO only a very good Mak or Mak-Newt normally gets close.

The little Tak 60mm seems to have a lot of fans as a grab n go scope, and with recent sky conditions, the grab n go route might be the only way to see much of anything! I got my FS128 out last night (definitely NOT grab n go!😂), but managed one fleeting glimpse of Epsilon Lyrae (the double double) before the whole sky got covered in thick cloud🥴🤪!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Malcolm, your delight was plain for all to see!👍😊.

Dave

On 19/11/2021 at 13:47, JeremyS said:

Did someone mention undercut?

I don’t like undercuts on eyepieces 👎🏻

🤔

Not surprised, Jeremy..after all, you're so smooooooooth....

Dave

Just 6main EPs for me now..

Front left to right: Carton Japan Zoom 7-21mm, Morpheus 17.5mm,  WO 1.6x Barlow, Baader Hyperion zoom 2.25x

Back left to right:

Morpheus 9mm, Nagler T2 12mm, Celestron Axiom LX 23mm, Axiom LX 31mm (both Axioms decloaked).

Dave

1 hour ago, Saganite said:

I mentioned earlier this evening Dave, that I had hopes, but I did  not even get a scope through the door.  

There will be other nights Steve..🙂

Dave

Well, sadly, the cloud is getting thicker and thicker, so I'm going to call it a night..

Hope some of you are getting the lovely clear skies we had here almost all day today!

Dave

3 hours ago, Paz said:

I would love a pair of 22mm LVWs for binoviewing

You and loads of others, Chris!! Join the orderly queue now...😂🤣

Seriously,. wonderful eyepieces, the LVW22mms..

Dave

5 hours ago, 12green said:

Scope Meade LX90 acf.

when I use Binoviewers mainly for Lunar observing,  pairs of 25mm, 18mm and 8mm BST Starguiders.

when I dont, Maxivision 34mm, ES82 14mm, Meade Super Plossl 9.7mm

Nice!!👍

Dave