scarp15

Should this become your 'all rounder' telescope then as much as you may enjoy the 8", ought you choose that, there would develop based upon your inquiry a niggle as to "what if I had instead got the 10". Therefore get the 10" and be done.   

Would consider an elusive; large object of low surface brightness and not too easy to locate to be the Medusa Nebula. Worth while a look for though, as I recall responds to an OIII filter.

Conversely a subject that (in my opinion) I do not consider as necessarily elusive, at least a proportion of, is Barnard's Loop. There are much more challenging (with moderate size aperture) galaxy clusters to grasp than this very subtle nebula. Ascertained by a traditional observers approach, does require knowledge, skill and curbing ones expectation to what can (barely) be seen. Yet a slice of Barnard's Loop , is not determined by aperture and so long as there is excellent transparency (dark skies of course etc), is dependably accomplished.  

Another visually tricky subject, that I had a go at a few years ago is The Ghost of Cassiopeia; primarily IC63 and comprising IC59. Illuminated by the star Gamma Cassiopeia, there are splendid images capturing the ethereal presence of this nebula, captured at its most revealing by Hubble. Again the glare from its host star makes this a very difficult visual subject, yet on one occasion I did manage to glimpse the brighter cone shaped element (averted vision, fleetingly) using my 14" dob and a TV plossl (cannot recall whether the 20mm or 25mm). 

6 minutes ago, wookie1965 said:

Through my own scopes from home M51 is my nemesis even having the 10" dob now I have not got it. 

Yep certainly from home, yet your 10" will deliver M51 if you could ever get to a dark sky specifically with this mind.  

Elusive targets; plenty where do you start.

Lets begin with Barnard's Merope Nebula. This tiny patch catalogued as IC349 is actually 15x brighter than the highly regarded Merope Nebula. Yet it is rather close to the very bright glare of Merope and thus is a very hard target to visually spot. E.E. Barnard himself discovered the nebula using a 36" refractor. There is an observers account at high magnification (428x)  employing a 15" dob, nudging Merope out of the field and thirty minutes of eye straining averted vision; to ultimately gain a momentary 'slither'.  I have had a go with my 14", needless to say unsuccessful.    

On 09/03/2023 at 18:57, Stu said:

Mine now is a Pearl River original, valued for many reasons but the history being towards the start of the Televue Petzval journey and link with O’Meara are right up there.

 

Stu, how does the weight compare with a TV85? Would they be compatible in terms of mount / tripod? Thanks.

17 hours ago, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

I observe in light polluted Bottle 7/8 skies. Starting with a 130mm newtonian to a 127mm refractor, 150mm & 204mm newtonians and 102mm refractor with a couple of small Maksutovs thrown in.

I found the 8" dob didn't help me observe significantly more objects however extra details were observed in the objects I can see. Globular clusters for instance resolved more peripheral stars. Open clusters looked brighter and more dense due to resolving some of the fainter stars & and the extra aperture gathering more light overall.

In the end I decided to downsize to a 102mm refractor as my main scope because I discovered I prefer observing with an easily managed mounted telescope while also managing my own expectations!

Aperture is king but personal preference and circumstances trump the generic ideal.

Hopefully that makes sense. I'm slightly distracted watching Liverpool stuff Manchester Utd.🥳🤣

 

They thrashed Newcastle last wk-end in the Carabao cup, comeuppance, no tears shed on Tyneside. 

Dark transparent skies and dark adaptation are king, aperture likely will facilitate some gain in these circumstances, yet a portable set-up within a non light polluted environment can be everything. Getting to such places may require some determination and motivation, stepping out a bit of your comfort zone, yet when in such a circumstance any size aperture telescope will behave way above its anticipated expectation. Then yes regardless, convenience of smaller, manageable portable equipment does by definition gain more use certainly and managing / tailoring expectations, makes each opportunity a rewarding potential.  

2 hours ago, Guy65 said:

Thanks - very helpful and totally makes sense. The consensus I'm getting here is that aperture isn't going to be that helpful for me.

From the perspective of my backyard, when I haul out my 14" dob, the difference is quite significant on familiar objects, compared to using my more frequently used 8" dob. Therefore on familiar brighter objects, aperture gain in a light polluted circumstance will enhance observations. However I do not haul the 14" dob outside very often (primary use has been for dark sky trips), the 8" or refractor, more nimble and easier for nipping outside, thus gaining a lot more user time. It is perhaps about making the most regarding where you are and what you have, time out under the stars trying to locate things is still engaging and certainly, an 8" or 10" dob is indeed a versatile option for consideration.  

Star hopping is fine, its just a matter of learning and then it gradually becomes natural. Home skies are best for brighter DSO objects, such as the listings in 'Turn Left At Orion'. Aperture will make for improved viewing, as for example; open or globular clusters, planetary nebulae. Dark skies of course are 'where its at' and will make for a broad and significant gain in DSO potential at the eyepiece. An 8" or 10" dob will not be too much hassle to take out on a car trip.  

13 hours ago, Budgie1 said:

They're not normally a problem in May, although they were earlier last year. It's later in the year that they really become a pain. I normally start imaging again from mid-August and this is when it'll be nice to have an obsy this year. I was building mine during late Summer last year and the midges drove me inside on a few evenings when I should have been building the Obsy.  

Late May to mid-August is when it's really too light to do any imaging but visual can make the season a bit longer up here. December is great, you can start imaging at about 5pm at that time of year!

Yes, we based ourselves on holiday in Tobermory late summer a few years ago and I took my astronomy binoculars and monopod. One evening I got to a good dark spot a couple of miles outside of Town. What was necessary and I was prepared for was to completely cover up to include cap , mosquito head net and summer gloves. The clouds of midges were horrendous and I think that became one of the shortest sessions ever. 

If intent on stargazing, midge season starts to become a problem from around the second half of May and could last into October. Prior to that is still good optimum time for stargazing, by the time the midges become a significant nuisance, its beginning, at that latitude to become a bit too light anyway.  

I have backpacked across the hills of Rum, wildcamping and stopped in the bothy. It is a fantastic nature conservation island. The ferry crossing though can potentially be very rough.

Footnote: passenger ferry only.

Perfectly safe, yet gaining knowledge of a good, safe, dependable dark sky spot, that you can conveniently set up next to your vehicle takes some reconnaissance. Also is there adequate shelter from any prevailing winds. When you find such a spot, it is very worthwhile for occasional outings. 

Places to avoid include country parks. 

Yes as the others have said, both possibly, as they are complementary but certainly begin with an 8" dob.

In that unfortunate scenario, say for example flood damage or a house fire, theft maybe, though doubt someone will nick my 14" solid tube dob, would require a time to pause and consider. It could be that there are other needs to channel the money as life circumstances change, or else probably what I would do is just streamline and condense into a more compact set up. The other consideration is the cost of everything, what I have now has upped in price at least double, so like for like might be a challenge. 

However I would settle on a high spec 10" dob and a bunch of Delos E.P's.

As for walking away, well we all know that song...'You can check out, but you cannot leave'. 

Have not thought about this for years, since completely conditioned to manually operating. Reasoning being for simplicity of approach and to keep in check complacency, in plotting where things are.  

If this form of restrictive regulation should become enforceable in part of the UK, then it will inevitably be picked up within others and Snowdon will be next. Our freedom to access our hills could unravel, enforcements; restrictive regulations could snowball, its not even improbable to return to the conditions of the 1930's preceding the Kinder Mass Trespass that had been organised by the Manchester ramblers club. There are those whom with influence and wealth that would love for this to happen - give an inch, take a mile. 

10 hours ago, saac said:

Funny I see a bunch of people that really should be enjoying themselves more!.  We clearly have very different ideas and expectation on hill walking and what the Scottish hills have to offer if you honestly believe that is fun.   As for the photographer waiting  for their moment - sure that must be what happened!.  The path by the way pre dates the weather station,  somewhat - these are ancient paths !!!.  As for the piano story - relevance!   Together with any of the other multiple routes up "the Ben", I have no idea how or why that is relevant. Scarp , we certainly have different expectations on hillwalking on the Scottish hills.  I think that explains the gulf that exists between our views lol. I think we are further apart than when we started - be a boring world would it not if we all agreed.  Enjoy the hills my friend, I'll enjoy them my way  

Jim 

In your analysis therefore, should there be enforcements imposed to include other parts of the UK such as on Snowdon, which is perhaps similar to Ben Nevis in terms of footfall. Perhaps to include the Lake District why not Scafell Pike. Isn't what you are suggesting a dangerous precedence towards a slippery slope of enforced restrictions on citizens rights, eradicating all the campaigns particularly during the 1930, such as the Kinder Scout trespass, in which activists were actually imprisoned for trespass, yet thus led to eventually establishing our national parks. 

The Dartmoor court case by one self interest landowner has set this in motion. Our right to roam and rights of access is as I have said before a matter of social justice and it is currently vulnerable to change, to impose more austere and controlling legislation, that may impact all of the UK.  

The tourist route up the Ben is not my cup of tea either and always seek quieter routes or solitude, it is also very uninspiring. It is almost like a pilgrim route and people less experienced do venture up there, Ben Nevis just another iconic attraction for visitors.

Here is the aforementioned moor, a wild camp looking across some time ago. Wildcamping and astronomy a perfect combination. 

3 minutes ago, saac said:

Well that is a different topic altogether which I think you have particular views on and I recognise there are also different opinions on the subject.   Ultimately land management  regulation is the type of thing I guess for the politicians in Holyrood to legislate  -  between them and the electorate.  It is not my concern, my concern is over tourism and the need for active management strategies. 

Jim 

 

 

This is not presenting a particular view more so informed objective facts based on comparisons. Wildmoor conservation is gaining momentum, most recently with the community buyout at Langholm in the Scottish Borders for a former grouse moor that is to be restored.

Not far from myself is on the Northumberland Scottish border is Whitelee Moor and which I enjoy to visit.

https://www.nwt.org.uk/nature-reserves/whitelee-moor

24 minutes ago, saac said:

Here you go @jetstream, do you ever see anything like this on your trails in Canada.  Ben Nevis in the summer -  really peaceful way to commune with nature  

Ben Nevis Motorway

Jim 

I see a bunch of people enjoying themselves, exercising and gaining some views. That photographer was clearly waiting for a photo opportunity to sensationalise. Yes the tourist path up the Ben can get busy and is rather tedious, been there done that years ago. It is associated with many odd stories such as a group hauling a piano up there (for charity), a car - was that in the 1920's?. The path would had originally been conceived for the weather station. As you will well know the more intrepid route for experienced walkers and with a relative head for heights is via Carn Dearg, a totally different experience. 

13 minutes ago, saac said:

Of course it is not natural it is a human activity, farming itself is not natural, land management is not natural !  What it certainly is not, is illegal, certainly not in Scotland anyway. There are also clear benefits as found by the generations and cultures throughout human history who practice grass land burning since the dawn of our agricultural history.  Sure, pressure groups of many persuasions will frame their own narrative, but Muirburn is not illegal, and as I said I can see it being used to greater effect to combat wildfire break out with our changing climate.  California, northern Italy may well benefit as they seem particularly hit by wildfire during the summer season now.  

Jim 

There ought to be no burning taking place on these upland moors. Nature conservation would return these uplands back into active blanket bog and heather heaths, harbouring a variety of plants such as sphagnum mosses, Cloudberry, bog asphodel and cotton grasses. They will be havens to a variety of insect life and invertebrates. Then Skylark, Stonechat Meadow Pipet, numerous species of butterfly and moth, of course for red grouse, though also merlin and buzzards. Conservation work involves partially decayed saturated vegetation into brash mats for retaining the peat bogs. Storing carbon and absorbing water during periods of heavy rain fall. Grouse moors are the complete opposite to this they are dried out deserts and are incomparable with a conserved natural moorland. 

1 minute ago, saac said:

Not sure what the code is in England but that is not technically correct here in Scotland. The strictures on heather burning are controlled by legislation enacted by Holyrood under the "Muirburn Code". This places certain restrictions but does not prescribe it.  And as you know, the science behind the environmental impact is inconclusive, there being both detrimental effects as well as beneficial effects. It is an ancient practice encountered the globe over.  Indeed, recent moor fires wrought by global warming may call for more controlled burns as preventative measures. 

Jim 

Not really any benefits, it is to encourage new seedlings to grow for the grouse, which however if left naturally would probably regenerate at a more natural slower pace. Unfortunately the practice of Muirburn is simply not natural to create patchworks across the hills detrimental to all native species favouring only grouse. There is increasing concern from local communities regarding smoke. There are also investigations regarding certain estates that still are suspected for the persecution of  birds of Prey particularly Hen Harries that feed on grouse. A game keeper had recently I believe been prosecuted for such an offence, but it is the estate owners that bear ultimate responsibility. No I am adamantly not in favour of grouse moors including the Royal Estates, they are a thing of the past and should go to be replaced by wild moors, not managed for commercial shooting purposes.  

11 minutes ago, saac said:

Sadly not so.  Historically no where close to the 200,00 plus visitor figures we see today; you can hear that path groaning under that footfall.  But then that is Skye's story now isn't it.  Pre the bridge, when a trip to Skye really meant going "over the the sea" , the Old Man was a haven of peace.  The repair work is long overdue and welcome given the amount of damage that was happening, last year's damage  was dreadful, the path and surrounding network degraded so quickly under the pressure.  I just hope they have had the foresight to make sure they have a budget line in for year on year repair and remediation work -  this problem is not going away. 

Jim  

Hmm yes actually it was probably more like the late 80's when we did that Trotternish ridge, of course the ridge itself we did not encounter anyone, Quiraing we had to ourselves but the car park below the Old Man was busy. Yep indeed it was the ferry back then. I had only been back a couple of times that involved the bridge, it is far too easy. We used to go on two week family holidays every year to Isle of Raasay via Skye, which was a real culture shock growing up in Blackpool. I remember the fishing (and swimming) was excellent, the beaches and hill walking was great, also exploring some of the old dwellings plus first experience of midges. The Island had just been connected with electricity (mid 70's), then back on Skye, like everywhere else in that part of Scotland, on Sundays - nothing was open. Things have moved on then in many ways.

11 minutes ago, saac said:

All part of the wonderful tapestry that makes Scotland the most beautiful place on the planet - but then I am biased. Go further North and you can marvel at built structures which are thought to be the oldest in the Britain isles predating Stonehenge by some margin. Just don't blog about it or put up a load of selfies or you will invite the hordes who will come and spoil what they came to see  

Re the John Muir trust , get active, get volunteering  

Jim

Yes it is often local knowledge that indicates certain pre-history structures. We did a holiday on Mull a few years ago, an Island I had visited a few times and is not untypical for there being many such hidden Neolithic sites. There was a case of a Neolithic burial cairn a couple of years ago, that was tragically dug up by a farmer on Skye, who was quite rightly prosecuted. Until it became news worthy headlines, this was not widely known about anyhow.

Certainly the work that John Muir Trust has undertaken as custodians to part of Knoydart and the Rough Bounds (as well as all their estates) is very commendable. It is quite a few years since I had last been to this part of Scotland, which definitely has a sense of wildness, but yes it can oft be overlooked that this remote mountainous peninsula was once home to many communities, that were forcefully evicted, some of the crofts still etched into the landscape.