scarp15

Here is a fascinating article featuring an exhibition on rural Scottish communities in the 1930's, a collection by female photographers. Worth noting that the Scottish Highlands became significantly depopulated, entire communities forcibly evicted many of whom were sent off to harsh and impoverished lives in Canada, North America, others to eke out a living forming coastal communities or else go to the emerging slums of Glasgow and the fledgling industries through the 18th and into the early 19th centuries. I have encountered numerous ruined croft communities, the evictions particularly severe on Skye, Knoydart, Sutherland. The empty glens of today once had thriving communities, that made way for sheep.  

‘A one-woman job’: early 20th century Scotland – in pictures | Art and design | The Guardian

Skye's Old Man of Storr had always been popular. Me and my then girlfriend backpacked across the entire Trotternish Ridge on Skye back in the early / mid 90's and it was popular then.  The Skye Trial incidentally is a fantastic relatively new backpackers trail that also on the first sections covers this ground. Sections on the Pennine Way, that had considerable footpath damage and therefore were paved was controversial at the time (again in the late 80s early 90's). The paving has blended in really well and the outlying vegetations has thrived. There had been recent concerns about footpath maintenance in the Lake District, which had received funding via the EU, for which obviously for the UK is now closed.  Funding streams for footpath maintenance are available through National lottery funding I believe. 

11 hours ago, jetstream said:

Sitting here many thousands of miles away has me feeling bad for the land over there.

It has disrespectful , damaging tourists and  also damaging practises such as peat burning and de naturalization ( eradicating certain native species) for the sake of hunting. Along with the burning goes the insects and small mammals.

Ironically, the people that are hurt the most are the ones that truly respect the land, like @scarp15 and who enjoy it immensely.

I cannot understand how anyone could support the camping ban without also supporting a ban on the damaging estate practises. Perhaps reforms should include stopping any damaging practises, repatriating the land to the people under the supervision of someone /something  that has its interests at heart, first and foremost.

Once established people could then be vetted and then allowed back to wild camp, or something along these lines.

I cant hunt in Quetico or drive a motor boat but I can take a canoe and fishing rod on an excursion. Snowmobiles are out as well. Here anyone breaking these laws are subject to massive fines right out of the gate. No one, that Ive ever heard of has breached these conditions, and why would anyone want to.

Two more timberwolves ran down the bay in front of the house today and  we spotted a moose recently in our travels. Otters are on the ice and grouse are sliding down the snowy hills.

Yes, people and nature can co exist nicely.

 

Yes this practice is appalling Gerry. It is now meant to be illegal concerning heather moorland burning where there is shallow peat, realistically there should be a wholesale ban. It does incinerate lizards, insects, flora and forna, hostile to small mammals, upsets nesting birds and becomes a monoculture. The illegal persecution of raptures also continues at a pace on these estates. They also blight national parks and make up to 44% of the Cairngorms as mentioned creating a monoculture with only  grouse, deer little else. Numerous articles, here's a taster.

Britain’s national parks dominated by driven grouse moors, says study | National parks | The Guardian

Grouse shoots scrapped as heather burning is banned on moors | Rural affairs | The Guardian

As said previously there are certain issues that require to be appropriately addressed caused by human impact, yet I do not recognise the exaggerated claims and no they are not a new issue. To experience, enjoy and explore:- responsibly and respectfully our natural environments is essential for a healthy life, good mental well being, belonging and fulfilment. 

The campaign to reintroduce Lynx to the UK particularly Scotland is still very much active, along with protections for beaver, eagle, wildcat etc. 

Don't be fooled Gerry, Scotland is a beautiful and wild place and much of what you refer to is also relatable here to and remember, the North West of Scotland was once joined to Canada, so it is a part. We do not have the Timberwolf though; at least not yet...

Save Dartmoor Backpack Camping - Appeal Fundraiser (Official) - JustGiving

Ok therefore within that context this would also include referring to people who go and visit the hills for their recreation, whether that be hillwalkers, climbers, cyclists. Yet the burning of moorland for grouse shooting, extreme populations of deer and pheasants purely for shooting and lets include fox hunting, fine no harm done there then.

It is not to say that there are not problems arising from certain areas with visitor numbers and misuse of some bothies that ought to be addressed, yet as far as I am concerned I am not ignorant to Scotland, you over exaggerate.

The nuisance offenders are in the minority and largely emerged between covid lockdown periods. This was also mostly roadside.  Do not tarnish all hill walkers with the same brush, the majority are responsible and out to enjoy a day or period in the mountains. 

Darwell with whom it has been mentioned, took this as an opportunity to supress wild camping which had been a common law. An ulterior motive; the abuse to this landscape is through excessive deer numbers and non native pheasant populations to serve his shooting business. To be clear the abuse to landscape can often be bad estate management, the practice of  Muirburn- the burning of heather and peat practice on grouse moors; a monoculture of nature this type of conduct should be resided to the past. 

19 hours ago, saac said:

 Oh and they are an entitled bunch, all to ready to quote their "rights" but a little more ignorant on their "responsibilities". 

Jim 

Who exactly are you referring to?  

Iceland as for example has multiple national parks and they are within the custodian of public ownership and are formally protected.  https://www.government.is/topics/environment-climate-and-nature-protection/national-parks-and-protected-areas/

Scotland is sectioned up into private estates. How then is this manageable, which body public  / private will be responsible for management? If there are levies who receives the payment? Will funds go into improving the eco system?

The current circumstance in Dartmoor is that Defra has agreed to pay the estates to permit wild camping to continue. This is wrong, if National Parks within the UK were within Public ownership as the examples you refer to, then various schemes could realistically be implemented that would have collective benefits to the environment yet recognise the aspirations towards participating in various outdoor activities.

Not too late in the season for the Pacman or in Auriga the Flaming Star. Not H-Beta subjects, but far more agreeable. 

My last visit to Scotland starting at Dalwinnie was late summer last year. I hiked for four days through the mountains. Over that period (which crossed over a weekend), I must had encountered hundreds of frogs and yes met two people (summiting a munro). I got what I wanted; solitude and I know that I will get that again. I also had the peace of mind that I was not committing any offence civil or otherwise when wild camping; that I did not have to technically seek the permission of the Landowner and of course was appropriately leave no trace, minimal impact across my journey.  

National Parks and countryside management is multifaceted in funding through taxation, or at least it should be. Tourism benefits rural economics and people of all backgrounds not just the supposive posh 30K car owners go to these places for recreation. Grants towards funding much needed work such as path maintenance (though sadly not from the EU anymore) are sourced for. The comments are not politically motivated and that is not allowed rightly here anyway.  

Anyhow this is meant to be about Dartmoor and the denial of access rights by one estate owner, so enough deviation. It will be interesting to learn as to what you say concerning Switzerland and Canada, having hiked through Switzerland although quite a few years ago and not being personally aware of that.  

Not really Jim

There is consensus; the You Tube phenomena self interest driven rivalry for subscriptions has driven the numbers of people going to the hills exponentially. Hopefully this trend wont last, but popular hill walking locations are and will remain popular. Levying fees (who reaps the benefit of that the estate owners?) or restricting access is a controlling and very retrograde step. More access needs to be opened up, particularly within our waterways, coastal areas. In England only 3% of our waterways are actually publicly accessible, can you imagine if this was the case in Scotland. 

Then what is actually creating the most damage to our environments and wildlife;

Number one: Climate change - in Scotland there is a decline in the number of Capercaillie, Snow Bunting and Artic Hares (which thank goodness the Scottish Parliament has now at least made illegal to shoot). There are indications that the small remaining patches of Caledonian Pine forest is also being detrimentally effected by climate change. 

Number two: over grazing -  First by sheep that were initially introduced on an industrial scale following the appalling forced evictions; Highland Clearances. The surviving pockets of Caledonian Pine had no chance for regenerating. When sheep were less needed there emerged the large Victorian shooting estates and red deer populations exploded. How many birds (such as the Sea Eagle, Golden Eagle) were made extinct during that period, when just about anything that flew or ran on four legs was shot. OK so they are now reintroduced and protected but the old shooting estates still continue. Deer incidentally used to die of starvation during severe Scottish winters (since they no longer had natural predators such as the Lynx or Wolf) Therefore culling was and is humanly necessary. Of course now with climate change and more fickle Scottish winters, deer numbers are again disproportionally too high.

Number three: inappropriate developments. New Hydro schemes such as in Glen Etive, power supply infrastructure etc. But at least Scotland still has retained public ownership with its water supply. In England, deregulation is permitting private water companies to dump raw sewage at will into our rivers and water courses, unchecked by the environment agency (not least due to cut backs).  

There are brilliant and thriving places to visit such as Glen Affric and I look forward to my forthcoming trip via the train (Corrour) in March. 

However one aspect we may agree on is this; good news concerning Beavers.  Beavers nearing return to Cairngorms after absence of 400 years (strathspey-herald.co.uk)

There is too much social media attention and youtubers promoting certain locations and it has increasingly become a growing trend certainly.

Bad practice such as fire pits, discarded litter and louts leaving behind cheap tents etc, has emerged particularly since the pandemic period. The solution is through education and investment in national park and countryside rangers. These people are in the minority.

The issue around bothies is varied, many of these shelters are maintained in good order some are abused - this is fundamentally not a new concern, I have used bothies for decades and occasional idiot groups visiting for a drinking session and abusing the premises has occurred back in the early 90's to. 

Yet these bothies are vital in remote country as a safety measure should you get into difficulty such as adverse bad weather in remote mountain country. The MBA which I used to be a member of does a terrific job at fixing and maintaining these premises and has recently introduced a new bothy in the Cairngorms, which I had the pleasure of walking past a couple of years ago when it was being renovated.  Bothies are collectively maintained by ordinary folk passionate about venturing into the hills and the alliance between estates and this charity is both unique that one that should be celebrated. 

Implying that access restrictions should be enforceable is extremely draconian. My daughter is a member of a University walking society. They go out most weekends often to popular hill walking locations. She is experiencing what I began to back in the early 1980's. Our access to nature is a matter of social justice. 

Too much of our land is in the ownership of a scant few, whom consider their estates as an asset in wealth creation and entitlement, just like owning a football club. A model of collective ownership such as in Norway would be a positive asset and in which greater protections to wildlife and the environment can be implemented.

There ought to be an expansion of national parks within the British Isles. The recent court case is a threat to all national parks, in the issue concerning this thread, it is hoped that Dartmoor National Park can bring a successful case back to the courts.

On a particularly dark and transparent night, then yes an aspect of Barnard's Loop is visually detectable. 

Requirements include complete dark adaptation and a period for observing hard deep sky objects, that may begin such as with the Flame and increase in challenge to engage with The Horsehead. A good quality H-beta filter at 2" to accept a wide field low power eyepiece that permits a large exit pupil is beneficial. Begin at M78 and drift across towards NGC 2112. You may encounter a 'curtain', a veil that blots out the background stars, this section is considered to be the more visually attainable. Once accustomed, you could even drift downwards to follow the curvature a little way. 

A Sky Quality Meter is helpful to optimise the best time period and when Orion is culminating. Aperture is actually less important, I have detected Barnard's Loop both in my 85mm refractor and 14" dob, a fairly good field of view is more relevant. It is an accomplishment, in observer skills and is within the cusp for what is attainable by conventional approach. Afterwards if you return to more easily seen objects, they light up like a beacon. 

For those subjects, a filter is not required.

Galaxies do require a dark and transparent sky, a degree of dark adaptation and in some instances to apply averted vision. Use a low power eyepiece to detect, then increase the mag if deemed a 'brighter' subject. Other than a select few, reasonable aperture for when observing galaxies, will very much assist to. 

A UHC filter however is very useful for enhancing contrast in Nebulae and Planetary Nebulae. 

A Tele Vue DeLite 4mm (also available in 3mm) would be a choice consideration to. 

4 hours ago, Alkaid said:

Litter.   Fires.  Alcohol.  Large groups.

The above is not what wildcamping is about and is exactly the reason the landowner wanted it to stop.   Even as a wild-camper myself, I actually find myself in favour if it protects the countryside from abuse   It's happened before.  The camping restrictions on the banks of Loch Lomond are another good example and that area is now much better off than it was before in terms of litter and fire scars.

 

 

This is entirely misunderstood. This landowner has no interest what so ever in protection for the environment. The estate is oversubscribed with deer and non native pheasants, which degrades both native vegetation and rare species of invertebrates; a sporting estate for wealthy clients that's it. They; him and his wife had previous to this purchase bought an estate in Sutherland - north east Scotland. A river runs through this estate and was popular with people panning for gold, a tradition held for generations. When Darwall took over he immediately enforced a daily (at the time) £10 fee, which was also very controversial and led to challenges and protests. 

This high court ruling is a significant step backwards and puts the financial interest of one person above the fundamental access rights that have been hard fought for and provided for in law. This also goes beyond just Dartmoor and could put at risk rights and protection for National Parks, including the right the roam.  

Access to nature is a matter of social justice. It is essential for a healthy life, good mental well being and able to participate in activities such as swimming, camping, climbing, walking, birdwatching and stargazing. Too much of England and Wales is already off limits. 

To follow on from the recent peaceful Dartmoor protest, there is to be; Starry Starry Fortnight Campaign.

Quote; " we urge the public to join this peaceful nationwide festival of dissent and direct action under the stars".  

Read about it here Dartmoor ruling sparks new wild camp protest in fight to change law - Devon Live

21 hours ago, saac said:

The effects of over tourism are not restricted to the wild places. Edinburgh city has been leading the debate here in Scotland re the benefits and conflicts that come with a very buoyant tourist scene. Most recently, we have had debates around the Edinburgh festival and the conflict wrought when huge numbers of visitors arrive from July through to September -  accommodation, in terms of availability and cost, is becoming a limiting factor.  Some are complaining that the Edinburgh festival itself has become too successful; last week a high profile act declared they were calling it a day citing production costs.  The city council is looking at restrictions that they may be able to apply to the Airbnb scene to prevent local people being locked out of city centre housing due to the number of holiday lets.  The tourism tax - local visitor levy - would be good if the money raised was guaranteed to go back into alleviating some of these problems, we can only hope. 

Jim 

Local Visitor - Tourism Levy

Tourism, Ignorance Are Damaging Scotland's Munros

Tourism Levy - Scotland

I get that concerning the article by Cameron McNeish. He is very outspoken on many subjects often political and I have followed his writings, for well decades, his hill walking routes still bear an influence in planning. It is also worth noting that he is an outspoken critic and campaigner on the ill oft illegal practices on grouse moor estates, particularly illegal persecution of raptors of all kinds from eagles to sparrow hawks. This is an ongoing problem of course right across the UK, but Scotland does have a bad history of this such practice as in this recent article which is common.  Scottish gamekeeper charged with killing Sparrowhawk on a grouse moor – new court hearing – Raptor Persecution UK

Concerning hillwalkers, yes of course there are very popular routes just as in England and Wales and yes the Munros do attract more people than say many of the other classifications such as the Corbetts, Donalds and Grahams. Not all Munros of course, just mainly the more accessible. Yes reviving the Funicular is a dreadful mistake. Yes also there is a bit of a mess around certain bothies, many are kept well maintained others less so. However the hills and wild places are and should be for everyone, in reconnecting with nature and for physical and mental wellbeing. There ought to be more educational awareness, since the pandemic some places such as around Loch Morlich are I believe in a fairly poor way, then there is the over busy North Coast 500, which attracts way too many caravaners.  

There is though room for everyone, whether on a bike or on a hike, with space and solitude if that is what you seek and a top tip; travel by train! Nature to also has space with conservation programmes, to thrive.

A footnote to the campaign groups; The Stars are for Everyone and Right To Roam; there is a private members bill going through Parliament; National Parks (Camping) Bill. National Parks (Camping) Bill - Parliamentary Bills - UK Parliament

36 minutes ago, pipnina said:

Sadly I think it's true. While I wish this not to be misconstrued, I do believe humans have managed to violently overpopulate and we would have been better off ecologically plateauing about 5BN people ago, which lines up roughly with what our planet could have provided for us without the use of fertilisers (originally bird poo scooped from islands and mined in a manner most irresponsible which would have led to the famine of billions if not for the discovery of synthesized fertilisers prior to WW1).

We consume food in volumes that could never exist via "natural" means, much of which is grown on land claimed from ecosystems that are destroyed for farming, and then is fed to livestock (98KG of grain turns into 1KG of beef).

We package everything, and make so many of our daily materials out of stuff we cannot dispose of. Plastic recycling is little more than a fantasy as almost all plastics go un-recycled and end up burned or in landfill eventually (many poor nations are effectively poisoned as richer nations pay them to take their plastic waste, those nations then have little choice but to burn it, which releases extremely toxic chemicals). Even PLA, which is made of corn starches, cannot be biodegraded as advertised in nature, it requires enzymes that are artificial and high temperatures. Plus, every PLA on the market is packed with additives or is even an "alloy" with other plastics which mean recycling and complete composting cannot happen in many cases, leaving us with incineration as the only option for proper disposal.

Air travel (which still uses lead additive fuel) allows us to visit places en masse, and ruin them just as fast. I would very much like to travel and meet my distant friends, but it's hard to compare my feelings and desire to see other lands to the damage I would/could cause in collaboration with everyone else doing the same.

I think this is only the tip of the iceberg for what we do to this planet, and ultimately ourselves. Plunder now, regret... Sometime in the future.

I have developed a lot of anxiety around my own environmental impact. Near enough everything I buy or throw away gives me this inkling of guilt, but it's not like I can just... Stop living? If I didn't buy things that would eventually turn into waste, I'd just sit here like a lemon for my whole life, never enjoying anything, as all my hobbies cause some kind of unspeakable damage, and I'm not much one for reading and gardening is something you can only do so much of in a day, if you have a garden.

 

I apologize for being so morbid but it's what weighs on me whenever ecological / environmental happenings get discussed 😕

I do apologise as this is going wildly off topic. However you might be interested to learn that the EU is to impose a ban on what is termed 'forever chemicals'. PFAS are found in all manner of household items from non stick pans, medical equipment, clothing, cars etc. Links to health risk from cancer, hormonal dysfunction, weakened immunity and environmental damage. Regulation will take years to complete concerning all products but at least this process is likely to happen; imposed at within the EU. 

Yes we all have to look at our life styles and life choices for sure; thus I use the train more (arrived at a certain railcard age anyhow).

Now return back on topic. 

Getting back on topic; some maybe interested in supporting this. 

Save Dartmoor Backpack Camping - Appeal Fundraiser (Official) - JustGiving

1 hour ago, saac said:

I can't comment on the situation in Dartmoor as I don't have any real knowledge of the area. In Scotland however the problem is not with the estates or what they do with their land re population of deer.  These populations are managed. The problem as I have seen it over the past 30 years or so is simply the growth in human footfall  facilitated by tourism.  An overly romanticised PR effort on behalf of Scottish Tourist Board/Visit Scotland aided and abetted by the movie industry (how many times must the Old Man of Storr feature)  has resulted in trashing of the countryside.  Outsized vehicles blocking single lane roads, far too many feet trampling on areas of special scientific interest, the Cairngorm plateau damaged beyond repair, human waste scattered on mountain and woodland trails and the detritus of human activity left at campsite and wild places (whole tents).  This is nothing short of "rape" of the land I use that word with caution but it is.  Sorry, but this is not deer or managed estates that are causing this , this is simply people and far too many of them in a small area.  It's time we ramp up tourist tax as is being considered in the major cities such as Edinburgh and even reconsidered controlled access by permit to the Scottish mountains. John Muir would be appalled to see how we are treating our wilderness now. 

Jim 

Jim do you happen to work for a Scottish estate? Maybe the solution is not just to erect deer fences but human fences to, with gated entrance if you pay a fee. 

It is factually incorrect. The deer population has exploded in Scotland, it has doubled in the past thirty years. There are no natural predators, some estates will manage the deer numbers other do not; as part of their business sporting interests.

There are good examples of well managed estates such as those under the custodian of John Muir Trust  -  which I trust as you made a reference that you support. There is excellent land management, regeneration happening in Glen Feshie and the other side of the Cairngorms at Mar Lodge. There are poor examples to - estates have to take responsibility. 

As far as I am concerned you have exaggerated the hiker impact on this landscape. New networks of bulldozed estate roads penetrating deep into the hills, industrialising such areas as part of the Monadh Laith with wind farms and access roads etc are impactful not hikers feet. 

As someone who enjoys walking in these wild places and seeking solitude, I do not comprehend anything that you describe. 

There are many very established economic advantages to local communities for hill walkers, cyclists and climbers visiting to their locations. I know I am planning on a multi day hike soon, catching a train, last night will be in a bunk house and pub meals. 

This landowner has closed a popular public carpark as part of this court case. Such places might had been used for stargazing. This parking space is now only available for the estate's organised shooting (pheasant and deer) clients. They (him and his wife) have imposed antagonist measures such as locking access gates, since they took over the running of the estate in 2013. Dartmoor National Park are to put forward an appeal to this ban -  which will be in the interests of stargazers and hikers and cyclists alike. 

On 13/01/2023 at 18:23, Beulah said:

The problem is that wild camping is massively popular these days, thanks to social media and influencers. The popularity of this pastime is such that it is having an impact on the relatively small UK wild landscape though littering and fouling.

Such a shame for those who have been discretely wild camping for years, enjoying the wilderness and truly leave no trace to see it trending.

In my line of work it is astonishing to see how much human detritus is left in the landscape - anything from used toilet roll to a complete camp setup abandoned ala music festival style...

I guess it has become so popular that landowners have taken notice...and for those stargazing it might be a case of having to prove you are not kipping on the land...😔

On 13/01/2023 at 20:43, saac said:

This is exactly the problem, you have hit the nail squarely on the head.  While in Scotland we benefit from the "right to roam" legislation, over the past 10 years or so it has been self evident that we are suffering from over tourism.  We are a small country (and I include the whole of the UK in that ), it is difficult for the environment to survive against the increase in human traffic.  Advertising of our remote and wild places on social media, TV, movies etc have all contributed to increasing footfall; how long is it going to take for us to realise just how fragile these places are.  I do have sympathy for the landowner here. 

Jim  

On 06/02/2023 at 13:38, pipnina said:

I can't remember where, so I don't know how accurately my memory serves, but I think I read/heard that areas in the lake district do their absolute best to keep tourists on specific paths so the sheer volume of people doesn't destroy the very thing they've come to see.

We closed off stone henge with a fence because people kept vandalising it

We can no longer enter the prehistoric caves with the paintings in france (discovered during WW2) because the presence of moisture from human breath and artificial lighting caused plants/moss etc to grow on the walls, slowly destroying the paintings so that we could view them. So they built a replica "next door" and closed off the original to everyone except scientists.

Look at any major tourist / package holiday city before and after the rise of the aeroplane, the effect of the tourism industry is almost always unintentionally destructive.

Best we can do is keep our own impact to a minimum when we visit, and for affected areas to impose limits and controls to preserve what makes them special.

Most of these places only exist as they are once!

It is perhaps necessary to qualify a few facts. 

Dartmoor National Park and the Scottish Highlands as with much of the UK, is extensively over populated by deer; red deer, as is mostly the case in Scotland, roe deer much else where. Unmanaged, deer have severely degraded the ecology of much of our upland landscapes; such as to woodland, peatland and native plant life. On shooting estates such as this on Dartmoor, their numbers are artificially increased yet further. There are efforts such as in Scotland to manage the numbers on certain estates, particularly in conjunction with regeneration projects, but this is resisted by others. 

Next there are outdated grouse moor shooting estates that still practice muirburn; the burning of peat, that besides from the obvious environmental damage incinerates insects, amphibians, native fauna, nesting birds. Traps for small mammals and crows litter all over such estates, Hen Harries are illegally shot, trapped or poisoned.

Roadside camping that got such a bad name, should not be compared to those of us that go out on our bicycles or on foot and wildcamp - as we respect nature, follow a code of conduct and will often pick up any discarded litter on our travels. Certainly there are some who will cause damage i.e. cut down branches off a live tree for a fire that they should not light. But with the exception of a few, it is often the running practices of estates themselves that cause the most harm.  

Lastly its worth mentioning that in England, only 8% of land is actually accessible to the public. As mentioned, Scotland has a legislated Right to Roam act, that follows a code of conduct and it is twenty years old this year. England and Wales need something similar. There are campaigns now (not unlike there were in the 1930's and before the advent of National Parks), that within a few years this potentially will come about. 

Increased and protecting lawful access, enhancing our freedoms is just as meaningful to the astronomy community as it is for other outdoor groups. 

On 13/01/2023 at 18:59, mikeDnight said:

If you could find out who owns what, would it not put a land owners mind at ease if you requested their permission beforehand?  I live a long way from Dartmoor and have never observed there, but whenever I've observed from private land I've always sought the permission of the land owner well in advance. So far I've never been refused, and on one occasion have even had the help of a kind farmers wife,  who thought she'd help my friend and I to see in the dark by shinning a million candlepower Sun in our faces. People can be lovely when shown a little courtesy.  

Yes I get that.

The problem in the Dartmoor case is that a common law has been replaced (downgraded) to a permissive regulation. Since the court case, Dartmoor landowners agreed to accepting a fee and that will be annually reviewed, paid for by Defra (in other words the taxpayer and does not take into account all their other public paid entitlements), to permit wildcamping to continue on their land (probably in part because of the Ten Tors Challenge that nearly got cancelled; gaining extensive media publicity) for which in the future could be denied. And guess who has also agreed to this - yes the landowner who went to the trouble to take the National Park to court (who are now paying a heavy court fee) - incredible - maybe, but greed and entitlement yes. It is a very fine balance between our rights and responsibilities as citizens and the less than 1% whom own most of our land. 

Although there is more public awareness (and cost), it just doesn't seem to be registering within society; is bad for mental wellbeing, wildlife and astronomy. New office blocks are built and lit, housing estates reach ever further into green belt territory, nothing gets in the way (not even a colony of protected red squirrels to the northern outskirts of Newcastle). Locally I do not have neighbour issues currently, which has enticed me to go out and use my yard with high walls and bushes more frequently.  

Only times in quite a while I have encountered true dark skies have been on infrequent wild camps along the Northumberland Scotland border, without any optical aid though.  

You will, you just have to take a bit of time to first visually comprehend the locality in relation to a chart within the Auriga profile. After which guide the Telrad to fix on an approximate location. Then a little bit of nudge and drift is required with a lower power wide angle ep, to begin with. Depending on your sky, if you have a finder scope attached, it ought to show the faint compact fuzz of each or at least a more specific star hop if required. 

Blow, have them set up on both my Newtonians but never use them.

Frustrating but at least you went. That is quite an accumulation of misshapes on one outing though usually one or two often do occur, particularly dropping black eyepiece caps. Takes quite an effort really to get organised,  get yourself out there then set up and depending on your day it could be quite tiring. Coffee, warm clothing is the tonic. 

At least you glimpsed one new DSO. I had settled into the backyard, got the best view of Orion Nebula I've ever had from home, yet a tinge of regret that I had not made the effort myself to get to a dark sky site (getting lazy).

That would be good on the California in the right circumstance, trust you have a good session.