Another blown Paramount MX+ board

[snowy911]

So after 4 years, my original Paramount MX+ board gave up and I bought a new one for £750, less than 2 years later my new board has also given up.  In fact it started conking out mid-season, about 3-4 months ago, giving the dreaded 'error 213' response.  I've contacted Software Bisque who have confirmed that whilst the warranty on some components is 2 years, electronics is only 1 year.  In addition, the mks5000 board is discontinued and I have to wait several months for the new mks6000 to be released.  To add, the cost has more than doubled, apparently due to the unavailability of parts, as stated on their website.  I remotely host my scope, so still have outgoing costs whilst it's not being used.  I work in IT so am well aware that life's not perfect, but less than 2 years on a new board is pretty poor, and then for the cost to replace it to more than double, that's a bit of a kick in the teeth when you're down.

Numerous people have complained about the longevity of the Paramount circuit boards, perhaps we are the unlucky few, but given there are a few at my remote site and I'm not the first, I can only hope the mks6000 are built better.

For reference, the power supply works, just a few lights and no other action, similar to the last dead motherboard.

 

 

[michael8554]

Were the failures the same ?

For that much money I'd try to get them repaired - are there any obviously damaged components ?

Also check for an underlying reason for the failures - lightning, or humid conditions, or very hot conditions, or spikes on the power supply voltage.

Michael

[malc-c]

Are they a UK based company, if so then UK consumer law applies which basically is that you would expect something of reasonable quality to last a reasonable amount of time, and for £700+ you would expect the motor boards to last longer than say one in a cheaper mount such as an HEQ5.  It doesn't matter about any "warranty", the consumer rights trump that.  It would down to the company to either repair or replace the board, and any possible human error would need to be proven, such as any reverse polarity  application, which then would make you liable for the cost.

I would certainly be contesting the quality and reliability of these parts and sighting my rights as a customer.  If however it's not a UK based company then you may find your're out of luck, unless you purchased it through a UK based agent.  If this is the case your complaint should be addressed to them as they are responsible as you would have paid them the money, and that is whom your contract is with.

[tomato]

+1 for at least trying to find a third party who might be able to repair it, given the delay and on going costs you are incurring, what have you got to lose?

Of course, finding someone who could repair it is the challenge, there are enterprising folks on here who have done wonders with SW mount control boards but they are a much higher volume product and firmware etc is readily accessible.

[Oddsocks]

As a recent, and now ex Paramount MX owner, I can confirm that this has been an issue ever since the MKS5000 board was first released and SB have never tried to revise the design of the USB interface.

In my case my MX mount only operated for a few months before the USB interface chip on the board failed, possibly due to a nearby lightning storm, although that was never proven. The USB interface chip that is on the MKS5000 PCB is totally unprotected against over-voltage spikes or ground loops.

At that time Baader Planetarium were the European distributors for Software Bisque products and they sent me a replacement board, I didn't have to go through Software Bisque at all.

Baader Planetarium are no longer agents for Software Bisque and spares can be ordered through FLO, amongst others.

But, the situation with the MKS5000 boards has been difficult for several years, even before the pandemic it was not unusual for owners of Paramounts to have to wait many months for a replacement board to become available, and as snowy911 mentions the cost of all SB spares have recently seen a huge uplift, and this was one of the reasons that when I decided it was time to replace my 12 year old MX I went with another manufacturer.

While it won't help solve snowy911's immediate problem I would strongly advise that he installs a high-speed bi-directional USB isolator on whatever new control board he ends up with for the Paramount.

After my MKS5000 was replaced I have always used a USB isolator for the Paramount, originally only a full-speed isolator as high-speed isolators were just not economically viable ten+ years ago, while for the last five-six years I've been using an INTONA high-speed USB 2 isolator, and even though we have seen worse and more prolonged thunderstorms since, that have damaged other equipment in my home TV, Phone, BB Router etc, the MKS5000 has never been damaged again.

(Full speed USB isolators are inexpensive but won't support any other devices added to the Paramount's VersaPlate built-in USB hub sockets, the bandwidth is too small, only a high-speed USB isolator is capable of running the mount and additional USB devices that are using the mounts built-in USB hub sockets).

If you are interested, the INTONA isolator I used is this one, and it should be placed as close as possible to the mount's MKS5000 USB input, using as short a USB cable between the mount and isolator as possible, the input cable between the INTONA isolator and the PC can be as long as necessary, provided the max length for USB cables overall is not exceeded.

https://intona.eu/en/products/7054

As Tomato states above, it is worth seeing if the board can be repaired locally, the USB interface chip is replaceable although only at a surface-mount PCB workstation, it's not really an easy repair to do with just a soldering iron on the multi-layer MKS5000 PCB.

The above does all assume that the USB interface chip on snowy911's MKS5000 has failed, the MKS5000 is a very complex board and it's just as likely that some other component failure after the USB interface chip is responsible....

William.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Oddsocks
spelling

[malc-c]

If it's just the USB > serial chip that needs replacing then it shouldn't be a problem for any  computer repair shop to remove and replace the chip, assuming is something like the FTDI 232 5V device.  Heck I have a couple of these in my electronics parts box, they aren't that expensive, probably under a fiver !

Whilst I've soldered a few in my time they are fiddly, especially as I get older and need glasses ! - But I have a friend who works for an electronics company and could replace the chip for me if I asked her.  If the OP wants to try this (assuming it's been proven to be the issue) then all they need do is drop me a PM to exchange details.  Again there would be no guarantee, and may scupper any chances of getting the board repaired as suggested in my previous post

[snowy911]

Thanks everyone for your comments, same issue last time, gradually starts disconnecting midway through imaging session, then whilst a reboot won’t fix it, reseating the USB typically works for a while until it finally dies. As William mentioned I’m certainly not the first to experience this and will try a few other routes before pulling it out again and seeing if it can be repaired. 
Whilst I purchased the new board from FLO, it’s really a SB issue and I’m not sure they can help but will raise to them just in case.

A £750 replacement board which is now over £1,500 which only lasts 18 months is pretty poor, and makes you nervous about the longevity of the replacement. 

[Oddsocks]

14 hours ago, snowy911 said:

same issue last time, gradually starts disconnecting midway through imaging session, then whilst a reboot won’t fix it, reseating the USB typically works for a while until it finally dies. 

There are some common issues that crop up time and time again with the MKS5000 USB port.

The first is that the surface mount mini-USB socket breaks away completely from the MKS5000 PCB when you physically plug-in the USB cable, or one of the joints fractures, leading to intermittent loss of USB connection to the mount.

As expected, this appears to affect mostly those users who are setting up and tearing down their mounts with each session but a few have also experienced this problem with permanent setups and may just be be the result of having a heavy USB cable dangling off the mount.

This problem may have begun when the USA moved to prohibit the use of tin-lead solder in PCB construction, the replacement non-lead solders are physically weaker and require a different design of USB surface mount socket with a larger solder-pad contact area to maintain the adhesion strength, or a mechanical way of securing the socket to the board that does not rely on just the solder joints.

Software Bisque’s answer to that  issue is to mechanically strap a short, 6” (150mm) male-female USB-Mini pig-tail extender lead to the front of the mount using a self-adhesive tie-wrap base, or similar, so that the weight of the main USB cable is not pulling on the PCB socket continually and users are plugging-in to the pig-tail extender lead rather than directly to the mount each session.

As you state that unplugging and replugging the USB cable appeared to fix the problem temporarily, while a re-boot did not, then your current problem may just be that the one of the solder pads on the USB socket has fractured, if this is the case then that can be repaired locally very easily.

In your earlier reply you said that the mount powers up and displays lights but nothing else?
If this is the case then ask local tech support to double-tap the hand controller joystick button, if the MKS5000 is at least partially functional then the mount should home and then be controllable from the joystick even if the USB connection is damaged, which will help you further isolate the problem.

A second issue that is reported occasionally is that a current surge, caused by a stalling drive for example, can also knock out the USB comms temporarily (over-current error detected) and both the mount and the computer have to be rebooted before USB comms can be restored but if your computer is of a type that keeps it’s USB ports permanently powered up even when the computer is shut down then you have to physically unplug-replug the USB cable before the port will reset.

A stalling drive, caused by a lack of grease on the worms (annual maintenance), a build up of abrasive dust in the grease (desert areas etc) or incorrect adjustment of the worm spring-plungers, can occur at particular mount projection angles or temperatures, and, because of the USB disconnect caused by the stall it’s not possible to always see the problem when operating the mount remotely, you have to be physically present, or have a webcam trained on the mount’s facia panel, to see if either of the RA/DEC drive status LED’s are indicating a stall condition and whether the audible stall alarm is sounding?

Lastly, the MKS5000 has a built-in four-port USB hub.
When you plug-in the USB cable to the MKS5000 you are connecting first to the internal hub (on-board chip).
On the output side of the hub, port#4 feeds into the rest of the MKS5000 electronics to control the mount while ports#1&2 feed up on the internal wiring harness to the Versa-Plate sockets just below the OTA and port#3 is unused although the socket for that is on the PCB (marked Aux USB).

As a result of this hub topography a problem with devices using the two USB hub ports on the mount’s Versa-Plate, or problems with the internal wiring loom between the MKS5000 and the Versa-Plate sockets, may knock out communications with the mount and make it appear that the mount is in error while really the problem was caused by peripheral devices using the mount’s internal USB hub.

When I had my MX Classic the internal USB cables between the MKS5000 and the Versa-Plate USB sockets broke and had to replaced twice, if I had anything plugged into those Versa-Plate sockets when the damaged USB cable flexed then the current surge/voltage spikes would break communication between the mount and computer - error 213, but the real cause of that communication error was nothing to do with the USB electronics on MKS5000 itself.

After I began using a USB isolator between Paramount and computer there were no more error 213’s following a stalled drive and I stopped using the Versa-Plate USB sockets after the problems with the internal USB cables and moved originally to a StarTech USB2 industrial hub up on the OTA with an external USB cable from computer to the hub, and more recently I replaced the StarTech hub with a Pegasus power box after exchanging the USB2 camera for a USB3 camera and not being able to find a reliable USB3 hub that was compatible with the observatory computers hardware.

IIRC, to aid fault finding with the current MKS5000, if you do have a peripheral device plugged into one of the Versa-Plate sockets, such as a camera, filter-wheel, memory-stick, etc, and you can still reach those, but not the mount itself, then you know that the internal USB hub on the MK5000 board is functional and the USB2 Mini input socket on the PCB is ok, and the problem with no comms to the mount is after the input socket/on-board USB hub.
If the on-board hub is dead or the input USB socket physically broken then you wont see anything plugged into the Versa-Plate sockets, or the mount.

The new Software Bisque MKS6000 upgrade board has a USBC input socket, which will hopefully be a stronger affair, and I understand that they have moved away from having an internal USB hub on the PCB so that the Versa-Plate USB sockets are now merely pass-through-the-mount cables, which will isolate the mount electronics from problems with the peripherals that cause the USB comms to be disrupted.

HTH

William.

[malc-c]

Whilst the issue may well be a design/manufacturing issue, having purchased the board from FLO it is they that you have a contact with.  Now we all know FLO pride themselves in excellent customer service so I wouldn't have thought you would have much trouble opening discussions with them, especially as they have to trade under the various consumer rights that exist in the UK.  It would then be down to them to seek redress through whatever distribution network SB have in place.

If a manufacture is assuming their product would only be used in one method, ie a permanent setup and not a constant set up and dismantle situation, the latter of which tends to break weak solder joints then that is being very short sighted.  If it such a common issue as muted above, then they should consider replacing that socket with a type A or B USB port.  But then at £700-£1500 for a PCB, maybe they are just happy to let the money roll in.

Anyway, that's my 2p worth... 

[snowy911]

Thanks again for all the comments, I do use a Pegasus UPBv2, so don't use any of the MX+ ancillary USB ports or power sockets.  I also have the SB mini extender mentioned above, to try and prevent anyone accidentally ripping the mini-USB out.  Given its remotely hosted, the only time the USB to PC is removed, is to fix the error 213 when that starting occurring recently, and that's typically from the PC end and not the mount unless that doesn't work first.  I visit the remote site a few times a year so re-grease every 6-12 months.  Colin (IC Astronomy) also does a great job looking after the equipment and assisting when needed.  One thing I remembered the last time the board died, was I had to return the dead board prior to being sent a new one, even when I was paying full cost, which seemed a little bizarre, and does make you wonder.  I guess before removing the old one and attempting any repair, which seems a bit of a long shot, I'll need to check whether they still insist you return your mks5000 when purchasing the new mks6000.