Beginner CCD questions..

[Albaba]

Just a couple of basic questions regarding CCD cameras for you knowledgable bunch!

Am i right in saying CCD cams are just webcams essentially but obviously much better quality, as such are they able to take still shots as well as video?

I understand about using avi's to stack into single images but are all of them dual purpose, stills and video?

Prices range from £ to ££££££££££, is the price mainly based on the resolution of the sensor? So the higher the resolution the more expensive? I know it's probably not this simple...

Finally let's say there is a celestron model containing a particular sony sensor for 500 quid, would another brand of cam containing the same sensor but for 420 quid be essentially the same?

Sorry if these are dumb questions!

Thanks

[Leveye]

Webcams can use CCD sensors but not all CCD's are webcams and not all webcams use CCD sensor chips some use CMOS. People use webcams for imaging because thats all they could/can afford to make work for them and their budget at the time. The prices are getting to the point where you can buy a pretty decent camera for about 200 dollars. Size,brandname and quality of the chip and the FPS it is capable of set the prices yes. At these low price points for these new cameras coming out go with something new. Look at ZWO.

[riklaunim]

Am i right in saying CCD cams are just webcams essentially but obviously much better quality, as such are they able to take still shots as well as video?

Not really. Old webcams had Sony CCDs, but not everything has CMOS sensors in general. The key difference between all webcams and astronomical cameras is the electronics. Planetary machine vision cameras shoot uncompressed video streams. Webcams have some compression algorithms and have less settings options. DS camera do single frames on long exposures (with cooling to limit noise and low gain to get 16 bit output).

I understand about using avi's to stack into single images but are all of them dual purpose, stills and video?

DS cameras are not planetary cameras. You have to pick (except few small quasi-universal cameras)

Prices range from £ to ££££££££££, is the price mainly based on the resolution of the sensor? So the higher the resolution the more expensive? I know it's probably not this simple...

Frame and pixel size, sensitivity, electronics all affect price. Good big sensors with relatively big pixels and low noise will be in DS cameras. Small and fast sensors in planetary.

Finally let's say there is a celestron model containing a particular sony sensor for 500 quid, would another brand of cam containing the same sensor but for 420 quid be essentially the same?

Which model, which sensor etc.?

[Albaba]

Thanks guys, ZWO do look like very reasonable cams. I forget which 2 cams i was looking at with the same sensor......

Another question, what bearing does the FPS of a camera have on imaging?

Thanks again!

[oldpink]

FPS plays a big part
normally the faster the better as you are taking very fast Ms frames that cuts out a lot of boil and movement

I try to run my ASI at the highest rate possible to get the best results

[Albaba]

What FPS would be desirable? Over 100?

[riklaunim]

What FPS would be desirable? Over 100?

For planetary cameras - 50-60 FPS on small frame. Could you please specify what do you want to photograph? Each type of photography has its own preferred cameras.

[Albaba]

I guess a bit of an all rounder just to test the water, the 120MC seems to be ticking the boxes, especially the price..

[oldpink]

using a small ROI of 320 x 280 I was running at a around 200 FPS
but anything from 25fps upward depending on the target

I've no complaints about my 120MC so far its given me great results even though its a total amateur using it

[Albaba]

Seems a pretty amazing camera for the price

[Tiny Small]

It's a great camera for planetary work. If you want to photograph galaxies and nebs, you need long exposures - anywhere from 30 seconds per frame to hours per frame. Fast frame rates don't work on the deep space stuff which is why the more expensive cameras are used. They control long exposure noise much better and have a frame size better suited to DSO's. If you want an all rounder, get a DSLR. they can do most thing to a reasonable standard. If you are gong for DSO's you will also need a motorized EQ mount. 

[Albaba]

It says Exposure Range: 64µs-1000s, does this mean it will do a single exposure up to 1000seconds? Im still confused as to whether this camera can do both video and stills?

[Albaba]

I already have a 5D mk2 dslr but it's my baby and would rather keep that for earth photography and grab something smaller just to use with the scope

[Tiny Small]

Yes, it will do 1000 seconds. Which is long enough when stacked to get most things in the sky. I don't know how well they perform over such long exposures though. Would be interesting to see.

[oldpink]

yes it can do long exposure but the chip is way too small for any real DSO work
and it will be very "Noisy" running long exposures, best go for a DSLR or CCD for any decent DSO imaging

[Tiny Small]

It says Exposure Range: 64µs-1000s, does this mean it will do a single exposure up to 1000seconds? Im still confused as to whether this camera can do both video and stills?

You set the exposure in the software. 500ms will be 2 frames per second whilt 1/3 frames per second will give you a 3 second exposure etc. Some software you can just specify x seconds. Video is just a series of stills.

[Albaba]

Yeah i see, good point about video just being a series of stills, makes more sense now

[lensman57]

Just a couple of basic questions regarding CCD cameras for you knowledgable bunch!

Am i right in saying CCD cams are just webcams essentially but obviously much better quality, as such are they able to take still shots as well as video?

I understand about using avi's to stack into single images but are all of them dual purpose, stills and video?

Prices range from £ to ££££££££££, is the price mainly based on the resolution of the sensor? So the higher the resolution the more expensive? I know it's probably not this simple...

Finally let's say there is a celestron model containing a particular sony sensor for 500 quid, would another brand of cam containing the same sensor but for 420 quid be essentially the same?

Sorry if these are dumb questions!

Thanks

A webcam is either a CCD chipped or CMOS chipped camera, usually with a smallish size sensor capable of taking AVI or FITS files ( these are normally in mono cameras) and is mainly suitable for planetary imaging with some very limited long exposure capability for the brightest of the DSOs. The good ones are from The Imaging Source, ZWO optical (AsI 120 MM or MC ) and QHY amongst some more exotic brands and the price partly reflects the choice of either a Sony CCD ( ICX series for CCD and IMX for CMOS) or CMOS sensor  from what used to be called Aptina. Not all cameras using the same sensor  are the same as the quality of the electronics inside the camera and the drivers are factors to consider. Imaging Source and  ASI have particularly well executed driver implementation. A cooled CCD camera for DSO imaging is an entirely different beast with a corresponding price tag and these are designed to be used for long exposure imaging of the dim DSOs with subs running at up to 1800s or longer and usually deploy active super cooling of the chip using Peltier cooling. The mono versions of either a webcam or a cooled CCD are more sensitive and some say more flexible   than the OSC versions due to the lack of the Bayer matrix. Hope this helps.

Regards,

A.G

[Albaba]

Many thanks indeed, that is a great help