SMBH wars!!

[shinok]

Hello, i recently read a thread on Syper MAssive Black Holes, Namely ULASJ1234+0907, it is the most dense ever discovered, estimated 10 Billion times the mass of our own star, pretty amazing , apparently we are seeing the light from 11 billion years ago, got me thinking on how it managed to get so massive in such a short length of time, then i thought what would happen if a SMBH consumed at least 1 other SMBH, does anybody think this is possible???

[symesie04]

I posed exactly the same question when there was another link posted about it. Seems highly likely to me that its mass is down to the consumption of other SMBH's in galactic mergers.

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/164439-super-smbh/

[stonemonkeylives]

I believe I read an article in either S@N or AN magazine recently about this SMBH, and the theory was that it became so massive because it merged with another BH, I can't remember the exact details but I believe that was the theory.

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[shinok]

It does seam to be the only logical explaination to me, it would be an amazing sight if they could actual find one being consumed, here's another question for you guys, do you think black holes are flat or spherical?? would you see the event horizon from all angles if it was? maybe being stupid

[JulianO]

Its very poorly understood how SMBH's form. If you model it, then its difficult to get BH's to merge, unless you're very lucky. They are very massive so getting them to stop orbiting each other is hard. If you get more than two BH's then two of them tnd to throw the smaller 3rd one out of the galaxy too. Needs more work!

This is quite a good video about smaller black hole formation locally.

[symesie04]

Juliano do they not merge due to the weak nuclear force that presumably would be huge at that sort of mass? Although thinking about it gravity manages to overcome the weak nuclear force during the collapse of massive stars to create BH's in the first place, so guess not. If not by merger would BH's be able to aquire such mass through normal consumption of matter? Presumably huge amounts perhaps early in the universes history. But am i right in thinking if it consumes to quickly it "spews" out the matter in the form of pure energy that is a quasar?

[JulianO]

Juliano do they not merge due to the weak nuclear force that presumably would be huge at that sort of mass?

The weak nuclear force is a very very short range force. It's basically undetectable on any scale bigger than the atomic nucleus, so it can't help with black hole mergers.

Only gravity and electromagnetism work across useful distances.

Although thinking about it gravity manages to overcome the weak nuclear force during the collapse of massive stars to create BH's in the first place, so guess not.

Um - no - it's not the weak nuclear force its overcoming, its degeneracy pressure, electron, and then neutron (and possible quark). This is when electron's (and neutron's) are so squashed they try an occupy the same states, which is not allowed by the Pauli exclusion principle. This makes a pressure that pushes back at gravity, but is ultimately finite and enough gravity will take it beyond this.

If not by merger would BH's be able to aquire such mass through normal consumption of matter?

BH's can accrete gas and dust, but there is a limit to how fast they can do this. It's the Eddington limit, which is when the radiation given off by the gas and dust in the accretion disk so it can fall into the black hole exerts enough pressure to push any more material away from the BH. So for any given sized black hole there is a limit to how quickly it can gain mass. This is one of the issues in how to make SMBHs.

Presumably huge amounts perhaps early in the universes history. But am i right in thinking if it consumes to quickly it "spews" out the matter in the form of pure energy that is a quasar?

The energy from a quasar is the energy given off by the aforementioned accreting mass giving off its potential energy in a very efficient manner. They often flow out along poles producing vast jets detectable out to distances out beyond the host galaxy.

[symesie04]

Thank you sir, i genuinley thought that it was the weak nuclear force that stopped massive (not supermassive) stars collapsing to black hole level and therfore leaving the resulting netron star. I thought that the weak nuclear force stopped the electrons, protons and nuetrons being crushed together, but you learn something everyday. I will scamper off and look up degeneracy pressure now, most interesting.

As a seperate question, on the basis we know that most galaxies have merged with other large galaxies at some point in their history, and that most if not all large galaxies appear to have a SMBH at their cores does current physics dictate that a SMBH is flung into deep space most of the time during these mergers? or that they likely do merge but we just dont know how this process happens as of yet?

[JulianO]

Thank you sir, i genuinley thought that it was the weak nuclear force that stopped massive (not supermassive) stars collapsing to black hole level and therfore leaving the resulting netron star. I thought that the weak nuclear force stopped the electrons, protons and nuetrons being crushed together, but you learn something everyday. I will scamper off and look up degeneracy pressure now, most interesting.

The weak nuclear force is mostly concerned with changing particles - so protons to neutrons, radioactive decay, that sort of thing. Its a crucial force in the suns fusion, as it lets to protons come together, and one change to a neutron, to form deuterium, and early step along the pp1 chain.

As a seperate question, on the basis we know that most galaxies have merged with other large galaxies at some point in their history, and that most if not all large galaxies appear to have a SMBH at their cores does current physics dictate that a SMBH is flung into deep space most of the time during these mergers? or that they likely do merge but we just dont know how this process happens as of yet?

Models show that two black holes will happily orbit each other - for considerable time. Three though tends to be unstable in most cases, one of them being flung out.