Size9Hex

Thank you @John that’s a very helpful sketch and notes on where/what to look for. What I saw (or thought I saw) was less bright, and also further out from the primary.

As I think about it, although I’ve observed perhaps a few hundred double stars over the years, very few stand out as having had a primary with a diffraction pattern that interferes with a fainter secondary. There have been plenty that are very close/touching, but these were faint enough to not have visible diffraction patterns, or plenty of others with a visible diffraction pattern, but the secondary being far enough out to not be part of it - or bright enough to hold it’s own weight.

I wonder is there a knack/approach/method to these type of binaries.

Thank you @Stu, kind words.

I’ve recorded the occasion below so I can look back and chuckle! 😀

11 hours ago, chiltonstar said:

Good stuff Paul! What aperture scope are you using - I normally get the secondary of Zeta Her almost on the first diff ring, so presumably you are larger than my 'umble 180 mm??

Chris

This is uncomfortable, but I’ve had to conclude I was mistaken in believing I’d seen it. It’s a 5" scope. After reading your comment, I’ve looked a bit more into how large the diffraction pattern would actually be in my scope, vs. the separation of this double, and it just doesn’t stack up with my observation. I thought there was an intermittent grey speck, consistently appearing in the same place. After making the observation, I confirmed it matched the position angle in Sky Safari (which I deliberately hadn’t checked beforehand). But, it was too far from the primary. I’m rather confused by what I saw, or at least thought I saw. Some effect from imperfect seeing or imperfect vision or even just wishful thinking maybe. I though I’d been careful with this observation (as I hope I am with all) before calling it. With doubles, I estimate the position angle and need to see it match within a small number of degrees, but I’m a bit less strict on the magnitude, separation and colour which I find harder to estimate well (but have to "look/feel right"). I also compare against the displayed view in Sky Safari. But this one got through. Feel pretty dumb. . Will have to go back to this one (yet again!) for another look!

1 hour ago, Ags said:

 

What are people's experiences with the scope? Are there any realistic alternatives?

Hi Ags, commenting for visual only, I think it’s optically superb, versatile, and lovely to use too. It’ll do wide field, high power fine detail (within the laws of physics for its aperture), nighttime and solar.

5 minutes ago, Mark at Beaufort said:

Agnes I once considered the 72ED as a solar and travel scope (well I still might). I never bought it because I wanted an assurance that there would be enough inward travel to focus when using a 1.25" Lunt HW. I am still not sure about this point although I could ask FLO.

Hi Mark, I use a 72ED with a 1.25 Lunt wedge for solar. Reaches focus with all the eyepieces I’ve tried (ES82 mostly). However, inward focus travel is too limited on this scope with some other combos (e.g. adding a focal extender if I recall correctly).

5 minutes ago, John said:

Very nice list there Paul and many congrats on Zeta Herc - a toughie !

 

Thank you John. I’ve taken a large amount of inspiration from you and your posts on this one for sure. 👍

The constellations really whizz past quickly in the spring as the evenings stay light for longer. Lyra, Cygnus and Ophiuchus already stepping up by the end of the evening. Beautiful and peaceful out there last night, and pleasantly warm for April. A small bat on manoeuvre above, silent except for a few clicks.

Started in late twilight with a quick look at the crescent Venus and then latched onto Polaris for a star hop across a still blue sky.

Super happy to split Zeta Herculis at the end of the evening. Have tried a number of times over the years without success!

[edit - After a reply below which prompted a closer look, I think I was mistaken with the Zeta Herculis split]

Notes below in reverse order - seems that’s how Sky Safari exports them!

Hercules

• Zeta Herculis - Tough! Bright yellow. Barlowed 8mm reveals a grey spec dancing intermittently just outside in the first diffraction ring.

Bootes

• STT 292 - Very wide. Small orange and smaller grey. 24mm.
• 49 Boo - Wide pair but great contrast. Warm yellow bright primary and smaller grey partner. 24mm.
• STT 298 - Wide seemingly dull pair. Primary is rod shaped at 8mm though and narrowly split with a barlow. Nice!
• Alkalurops - Brilliant! Wide but great contrast. Pale yellow and pale grey/blue. 24mm. At 8mm the grey companion splits into a tight slightly uneven pair too! Beautiful.
• STTA 137 - Wide uneven couple. 24mm.
• STF 1889 - Close rather uneven double in an attractive field of scattered wide pairs. 24mm.
• 39 Boo - A terrific pair of eyes. 8mm.
• BX Boo - Wide rather uneven colourless pair. 24mm.
• Asellus Secundus - Wide bright and uneven. Warm white and battleship grey. 24mm. Fab.
• Asellus Tertius - Splendid view with Secundus in 24mm. Bright uneven pair. Slightly warm yellow primary and grey companioon.
• STF 1812 - Closish uneven pair. 24mm. 8mm pulls out a wide very faint 3rd.
• STF 1850 - Charming wide white pair. Almost even and not too bright. 24mm
• Izar - Brilliant! Bright yellow primary and a splendid smaller close diamond companion. 8mm.
• STF 1785 - Very close almost even. 8mm. A hint of gold?
• STF 1793 - Smashing! Close but clean split at 24mm. Colourless and a little uneven.
• S 656 - Wide pair in a lovely kite/turtle asterism.
• 1 Boo - Wide bino double. Meh... but wait! 8mm plus barlow pulls a faint companion from the glare of the primary!
• Muphrid - Warm white to yellow bright primary and wide faint companion. 24mm.
• STF 1825 - Close uneven colourless pair. 8mm.

Ursa Minor

• HJ 2682 - Smashing uneven flattened isoceles triple. AB easy at 24mm. Faint C easier at 16mm.
• STF 1798 - Elegant close uneven colourless pair. Suspected at 24mm but obvious at 8mm.
• HJ 2733 - Bright warm yellow/orange primary. 8mm pulls out wide faint companion in AV.
• STF 1972 - Lovely wide bright slightly uneven double. Nice scattered field stars. 24mm.
• STF 2034 - Extremely close. Just split in barlowed 8mm. Almost even white pair.
• Polaris - In twilight. Yellow with a small companion. 24mm.

Failed on a couple too. STF 1816, STT 289 and STF 1909. Oh, and a cheeky detour to the brilliant granulated M3 while in Bootes.

Safe and happy Easter everyone. Hope others are finding the some peace and a feeling of normality at the eyepiece (or indeed in any way at all) at the moment too.

Smashing report. I love your enthusiasm for doubles! Inspiring as always. 👍

Not daft at all. For a visual observer, there are good dark skies after sun down but before the moon rises. When the sun has dropped 18 degrees below the horizon, it’s properly dark. Before that, various shades of dusk, but in mid summer at 1am, I still find it to be usefully dark for DSOs with the sun at only around minus 14 degrees. Double stars and especially planets are worthwhile even in surprisingly blue skies! Similar effect with the moon, but much much much less pronounced. A very full moon will light the sky near the eastern horizon shortly before it rises, but the skies elsewhere are still usefully dark until it rises properly.

On 25/03/2020 at 22:33, Paul73 said:

No luck here.

Definitely one to try next time I find myself under some properly dark sky.

Paul

Give it a go, and good luck with it. As per the above, I think it’s doable with dark transparent skies. Tripod/mount will improve the odds a lot too I think. 👍

I think this a great thread and original question.

I started observing with 10x50s and used them exclusively for several months with great enthusiasm before getting my first telescope. I observed all manner of targets with them, because it was a case of at least trying in binos, or definitely not seeing the target at all. It was incredible to see colour in the stars, galaxies, clusters, binaries, planets out or Neptune, moons, craters and asteroids for the first time! Oh and the rings of Saturn! 🤘

I’ve ticked M1 in my 10x50s. Sadly I didn’t make any observing notes, but I recall bagging quite a few tough Messier objects on the same evening. It was excellent transparency and M1 was high in the sky. I had to use a star map to pinpoint it even after star hopping to the precisely the right place - it did not jump it out and was visually not impressive. I’m assuming I would have been using the tripod which absolutely supercharges the capabilities of the binos. On other evenings, it has not been visible. It was probably on my second or third winter season I saw it, so not quite a beginner.

The astro league puts its as a “challenge” (toughest of the three categories) in 50mm binos - but there’s also an omitted/implicit 4th category of "don’t bother" so at least it’s not that! In larger binos, they upgrade it to the slightly easier category of “tough”.

So I think it is tough but doable. Would we see things differently if the article talked of a tough object in a 10" scope (or pick the largest scope in the quiver)? We spend a lot of time at the eyepiece trying to push the large scope to the absolute limit, perhaps because the largest scope gives the best chance of success and the best view. If the binos or small scope doesn’t quickly deliver, is there a tendency to simply try the larger one rather than keep trying in the smaller one? I believe M1 in binos is somewhat easier than the hardest targets we report on in our larger scopes (assuming reasonably dark skies).

Was the article aimed at beginners? If so, maybe some expectation setting is needed. If not, I think it’s a fair challenge. Sometimes it’s nice to go for challenge targets, and it’s good to have tough lists to push us. Sometime it’s nice to just cruise around though - and it’s nice to have articles with easier options for that too.

1 hour ago, wookie1965 said:

Reading this did you get the third component of Tegmine I have tried quite a few times with my Tal 100rs and my 5" Meade but failed. 

Yep. I’ve caught it a small handful of times in the 10" dob and this was the first attempt (and success) in the 5" frac. I thought it had a pinched waist rather than fully clean split. High power was needed. With the barlow, I was at 275x. Seeing conditions were good but not exceptionally so. Keep at it - I’ll bet you could get it in good seeing with either of those scopes, although perhaps as elongated/pinched rather than cleanly split. Good luck!

14 hours ago, F15Rules said:

Nice report👍😊.

What scope were you using?

Dave

Thanks Dave. It’s a 5" f7.8 ED doublet from Altair which is somewhat new and I think I’m still getting used to. It’s the first large frac I’ve owned. I’d sure love to compare the view to an FS128 one day! That looks like a dream scope. 👍

Ha ha, always tempted! 😀 Time and money though...! Maybe at some point in the future.

1 hour ago, Ciaran Meier said:

What catalogue is this from ? I'm using DSO planner and its not listed.  DSO planner has got all the main star catalogues and a few pretty obscure ones too.  South 571 looks like it's worth tracking  down. 

I’ve never actually looked into the background of the catalog, but it seems to be this chap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_South. The stars observed with (John) Herschel are denoted SHJ nnn, while those just from South himself are S nnn. The Cambridge double star atlas states that there are 118 SHJ doubles and 220 S doubles in the WDS catalog, so a little lower than the numbers stated on Wikipedia.

S 571 is also HD 73619, but it’s just one of many, many, many doubles up there. 😀  I’m following the Sissy Haas guide at the mo (hard to find now sadly), but if I wasn’t, there are some other great lists out there, e.g. http://users.compaqnet.be/doublestars/

Keep ‘em coming. As others say, we need normality and distractions right now. Mag 13 to 15 galaxy bagging is amazing! My 10" - if I take it for a drive into the country side - puts the very bottom of this range barely in reach by a fingernail width, and only when the surface brightness is favourable, e.g. edge on, or with condensed cores. It’s great to hear of your experiences with large scopes and dark skies.

Smashing post. I’ve seen it called the wanderer rather than tramp. Caught it a few years ago in the 10" and there wasn’t much to see. Cracking effort to pick it up with 10cm! That orbital period of 3 billion years is amazing.

Thanks for the heads up. No opportunity to see this yet. Hopefully it’ll be with us for a few more days to give a chance for the clouds to clear. Been ages since I last saw a sunspot and they’ve been less and less frequent in the few years I’ve been observing. Isn’t the new cycle predicted to start sometime around now-ish?

6 minutes ago, Ciaran Meier said:

Nice one.  Love the Beehive with the 15x70's. 

I bet that’s a terrific view! Mine are 10x50s, but I often wondered about the view through a bigger pair. Do you mount yours?

With Cassiopeia circling low in the north and pulling the Milky Way along behind it, it should be galaxy season. However, the waxing moon, although less than half lit, was high in the sky and casting shadows across the yard. Beautiful skies though, with the deep midnight blue of a clear moonlit sky beating the sad grey and orange dome towards town.

Hydra’s head poked above the rooftops to the south, catching my eye as a charming sparkle of stars in averted vision. Rising up into Cancer, barely visible in the moonlight. An unpromising start with...

• Delta Cancri: The faint companion invisible in the moon’s glare.

An excellent latching-on point point though, from which to begin star hopping into the Beehive Cluster...

• South 571: Easy split of identical white pair. Brighter third in a pleasing triangle.
• STF 1254: Off piste (from the Sissy Haas list). Lovely uneven pair.
• 39 Cnc: Very wide with 40 Cnc. Better in binos? Scope showed a nice yellow/white contrast though.

Leaving the cluster to stop at...

• 31 Cnc: Bright warm yellow with a splendid faint distant companion. 8mm.

...on the way to the unmissable...

• Tegmine: Spectacular! Bright yellow, close, slightly uneven double at 24mm. Primary elongated at 8mm and pinched waist becomes clear with barlow.

Over into the Coma Berenices cluster. Like the Beehive, this cluster is close to us - just a few hundred light years rather than a few thousand for the Messier clusters that lead them across the sky in the Milky Way. Sparkly star fields that overflow the eyepiece!

• STF 1633: Fabulous pair of eyes peering back! 24mm
• 12 Com: Triple. Bright yellow primary A. Well separated from the pale grey/blue C but great contrast. 24mm. B appears in averted vision within the primary glare after adding a barlow to the mix. 8mm
• STF 1639: Very close white pair. Not quite even. Distant faint third. 8mm
• 17 Com: Better in binos? Very wide slightly uneven pair 24mm.

Finishing with an outlier beyond the cluster...

• STF 1615: Easy uneven pair 24mm. Warm and cold contrasting colours. Mag 13 third member not seen. Bring out the dob!

I used a Baader zoom which I find to be very practical for casual sessions on double stars.

Take care everyone.

Great reports. It’s nice to hear your experience and enjoyment with a 60mm scope. It must be smashing on double stars. My grab and go is a only a touch larger at 72mm, although much shorter focal length. You’ve inspired me to have another look through it soon (because actually, although it’s grab-and-go, my laziness has pushed me down to an even more grab-and-go-able pair of binoculars recently!). One of aspects that appeals to me on smaller apertures is that you can observe to the absolute limits of the instrument and observer.

40 minutes ago, Stu said:

Thank you Paul! I’m aware that certain sections of the forum may think my posts are about mundane observations and not so interesting, which they probably are, but I work with what I’ve got and continue to enjoy my astronomy! 👍👍

No, not mundane at all. Definitely a place for reports on pushing the limits with big scopes, dark skies or uber high powers, but it’s not the only way to enjoy the skies. Keep ‘em coming! 👍😀

Thanks for posting. Truly enjoyed reading this. Really captures the wonder and fun and excitement of getting out under the night sky.

29 minutes ago, wookie1965 said:

I have the Herschel lists in pdf format tried a few of them from home but I am blighted by light pollution so its a case of doing them from a dark site out of the question in the current climate.

So when I do go out its clusters and double and multiple stars, its a sad state of affairs when you cannot see the milkyway from home you dont get the awe in young eyes when they look up these days which is a shame.

That is sad. I guess you’ll know of the Cambridge and the Sissy Haas (if you can still find it) double star resources. I turn to these when the transparency is bad or the moon too bright. Love double star observing and it’s hard not to get swept along by the enthusiastic notes in the Haas guide! Asteroids and carbon stars are an interesting diversion when dark skies aren’t available too.

Take care.

Dark skies trips are off for now, but still plenty to explore up there.

Wednesday night in the back yard with the 10", mostly on the the spring galaxies in the Herschel 400 list:

• Comet C/2017 T2 (PANSTARRS) ticked. Thanks to others for their reports on this one. I wouldn’t have known about it otherwise.
• NGC 5053 globular cluster next to M3. Frustrating and invisible despite various visits over the years.
• 20 or so galaxies in Coma Berenices and briefly into Virgo. Markarian’s Chain and the Eyes being a highlight. Also, NGC 4526 framed beautifully between two stars.

A very welcome escape for an hour or two from current worries, although not entirely. The neighbourhood was quiet despite the early hour and the lack of planes also notable and strange.

Wider thoughts on the Herschel list for possible inspiration. From my suburban garden, Ursa Minor is visible, but only just. The sky to the south is notably brighter. In these conditions, with a 10" scope:

• The Milky Way objects in the full 2,500 list have been absolutely amazing to explore. Hundreds on offer and enormous variety.
• The galaxies on the full 2,500 list have been rather hit and miss. Worth a go if accepting that they will often be frustrating or impossible. Awesome from a dark site though.
• The galaxies on the 400 list seem largely doable from home so far, especially with a higher power eyepiece to coax them out.

Sky Safari has the H400 list pre-baked ready to go.

Stay safe and be kind everyone.