pixueto

Any luck guys with the dremel and the felt buffing tool dry? I got to a point where I can remove the CFA entirely but there are some sort of coating (coating, no  CFA leftovers) left in places. I can remove this applying the dremel with the felt tips for longer but I am concerned that I may end up damaging the sensor by doing so. I also thought about applying the rotary tool and the felt buffing head with fluid (isopropanol) when removing the coating to reduce strain in the sensor.

Does anybody have an idea what this coating is made of? Because of it, the flat frames aren't perfect but it's a pity as the bayer matrix is no longer there. It goes away very easily with the felt buffing tip. I can't help thinking there must be some safe solvent out there capable or removing this thin layer without subjecting the sensor to more abrasion. Any ideas? Could it be a bottom antireflection coating color filter? I have tried nail polish but it doesn't go away without the dremel.

Any luck guys with the dremel and the felt buffing tool dry? I got to a point where I can remove the CFA entirely but there are some sort of coating (coating, no  CFA leftovers) left in places. I can remove this applying the dremel with the felt tips for longer but I am concerned that I may end up damaging the sensor by doing so. I also thought about applying the rotary tool and the felt buffing head with fluid (isopropanol) when removing the coating to reduce strain in the sensor.

Does anybody have an idea what this coating is made of? Because of it, the flat frames aren't perfect but it's a pity as the bayer matrix is no longer there. It goes away very easily with the felt buffing tip. I can't help thinking there must be some safe solvent out there capable or removing this thin layer without subjecting the sensor to more abrasion. Any ideas?

I think the main reason for having a debayered DSLR is narrowband imaging. Now you have every pixel collecting light, say with a H alpha as oposed to only 25% of them. This is a huge improvement. For colour images, I think we would be better off with a sensor with the CFA intact as the colour interpolation algorithms are pretty good and the microfilters are still there. But for narrowband imaging... definitely, the mod is truly worthwhile.

I'll try the the epoxy/IPA approach.

I saw your post on page 74 and I've ordered those conical tools but the earlier link shows several options and I just wondered which of those you got.

In the link:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261211368960?var=560197392052&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

It is the 'Solid hard felt wheel' the one that worked best for me. The conical ones that I also used are too soft so based on what you are saying it may be better not to use them with the 1100D. To get to the edges I used the same tool but it's too big and it removes most of the CFA in the coloured edges (which we know it isn't a good idea). I am now waiting for the tiny tips made of silicone that Rinaldo used only for the edges but I had to order them from China and it's taking ages.

Have you tried using a dry tool on an 1100D sensor?  These have a much tougher CFA than earlier models.  I tried dry on a 350D sensor (I think) and the CFA came off eventually.  I tried dry on the 1100D and even after about 5 mins continuous buffing the sensor was polished and very hot but still a strong green colour - no CFA had come off at all and the buffing tool was still white.  Maybe the tools you are using are different, harder perhaps.  I have some of the pointed tools mentioned earlier, on order from ebay and I'll see how they work.  I can say I was surprised how even the CFA removal was with the paint scratch polishing paste - quite different from what I achieved manually.

Unfortunately, I haven't tried with a 1100D yet. At page 74 in this thread you can see the tools that I have used, though. I think, Gina, a good idea would be to smear the sensor with the mapplin epoxy then remove it with isopropanol/ecipse fluid before it cures. This will help you break into the CFA, making the work with the dremel much, much easier. I wsed to use a needle and break some bayer matrix along the coloured edges to help starting the process but, obviously, I will stay well clear of those edges from now!

Yes, but then it might run over the frame where the cover glass is going to go.  Anyway, time will tell

Guys, don't worry that much about the epoxy going into the sensor. Just make sure you have a sensor swab to clean it with isopropanol. You can use the swab too to hold the resin in the right area. Some epoxy on the sensor which is removed with isopropanol and a swab is actually good as it will take away some of the CFA and that will help later on with the rotary tool.

Seems JTW use epoxy resin to protect the gold wires and that definitely seems to be the way to go.  But it has to be the right sort of epoxy as I found out for myself!

Do you use the felt tips dry?  I ask because I tried that with a dry tip on the dead 1100D but even after some time it just polished the surface - I think it will need the car paint polish I used with the manual method.

It's very easy to go too deep and destroy the sensor that way.  Some parts cause dead pixels, some dead rows and/or columns and some complete failure - I've seen all of these!

I've yet to try a blowtorch on a complete cover glass but I have hopes of success.

Yes Gina, do use the felt tips dry; just be patient and keep going and eventually the CFA will start to come off. I wouldn't use any wet polish as it will be almost impossible to maintain an even surface and your flat frames will be a mess. I've found that, if some epoxy ends up on the sensor and you remove it with a sensor swab and isopropanol/eclipse fluid, you will also be removing the CFA in some places  making the dry removal easier when you apply the rotary tool.

Here you have a photo of my sensor. You can see that it is even with a perfect golden colour (except for a tiny bit on the left botton corner which needs the dry felt tip to be applied further). My suggestion is that if the coloured side edges hadn't been polished when trying to remove the CFA, it is possible that the sensor would still be working as the microscope shows no damage. In that case, the flat frames would have been perfect. I think it's worth having a go entirely and uniformely debayering the centre of the sensor without touching the edges and see if the sensor still works perfectly as I suspect.

Thank you for all that

I'm looking into this whole business again.  Several reasons, one of which is I think my 450D debayered sensor is now dead having sustained a broken gold wire in storage   I am short of 450D parts but have plenty of 1100Ds.  Several bodies less sensors, one with cold finger and one I've recently bought as not working but I believe the problem simply to be a broken battery connector - I haven't had it apart yet.  So I'm looking again at using an 1100D for my mono DSLR experiments.  A big advantage over the 450D is the more recent image processor with a maximum ISO of 6400 rather than 1600 which is very useful for DSO finding and setting up.

We now have a seemingly useable method of removing the cover glass and you have found a satisfactory epoxy resin which makes actual debayering far less risky.  I used the polishing method before but by hand which was very tedious but now there's the epoxy solution I would be happy to use my Dremel look-alike with polishing mop.  I have a dead 1100D sensor with broken cover glass and many broken wires on which I can practice CFA removal.

Regarding killing the sensor while debayering, yes, the short edges (without wires) ARE delicate and will cause failure if touched.  This was discussed much earlier on in this very long thread.

Indeed, they seem to be very delicate. I remember reading this in this thread a while ago but I had been pretty careless with my debayered 1000D sensor then (which still works) and I decided then that the cause of all those sensor failures was the epoxy rather than tampering with the coloured sides. To be honest, I am not convinced yet that the cause of the fault in my last sensor was that. If it was indeed because of the removal of the array along those fringes, then the monochrome mod is a fact as it would be  possible to achieve a complete CFA removal, with a perfect sensor, perfect flat frames and no CFA left-overs just by using the rotary tool, felp tips and chip on board epoxy. However, if the fault was caused by the dremel going too dip on the imaging sensor, then we are back to square one. I don't find the manual method satisfactory. Those who have used it (included myself) have ended up with CFA left-overs and an uneven sensor which is reflected in flat frames. I am only interested in achieving a perfect CFA removal; that is, a nice golden sensor from left to right, top to botton. I managed to achieve that and I have a method; the trouble is that the sensor couldn't take it, ha, ha. Time will tell. I have a 350D in a box and it's a candidate to have the blowtorch treatment to remove the glass but that may take a while.

Dear all,

I know there are a couple of people attempting this now so I just wanted to show you where I am now and what I think it has gone wrong.

First of all, the epoxy from maplin is a winner. It has protected the connections really well. I felt I could get close to the edges with the rotary tool and the sensor swabs.

However, I did manage to damage the sensor quite early on (see photos attached). First, a black line appeared in the photos. Interestingly enough, I had just started debayering and did not go very deep. What I did as to remove some of the CFA from the sides where the golden connectors aren't present.  Then I continued with the debayering process and removed all CFA. The next step was to use the rotary tool at speed 3 instead of 1 to achieve a complete uniform golden sensor and remove all the coating which was left and which was preventing the flat frames from being perfect. I ended up with a PERFECT golden and shiny sensor after cleaning it with isopropanol. However, I broke the sensor completely in this process (see photo). When I examined the sensor under the microscope, I expected to see a lot of damage. However, the sensor is very clean without any sing of damage. The pixels without the CFA are there intact. As a result, I am led to believe that the damage was caused by removing the CFA from the coloured sides in the sensor. This is something that I will test next time I have a chance of attempting this mod again (it may be a while though -holidays is nearly over). Those of you attempting this now with the dremel, I would advise you to protect the coloured fringes with the maplin epoxy; apply the rotary tool vigorously in a good area in the center until the CFA is gone and you can obtain a PERFECT flat frame in that area -the surface will appear perfect.  If you can achieve this without damaging the sensor, my hypothesis is true and the danger here are the golden connectors and the coloured CFA sides. This epoxy can be the solution to this; it took care of the golden connectors but I have been careless with the coloured sides. I will test this when I have a chance but it may be a while.

That's good - thank you for the tip   I found it incredidly difficult to get the epoxy resin to go in the right place and it really loved to form a whisker that went onto the image area   I found warming it up a bit to reduce the viscosity helped.  That was with standard slow setting epoxy - I haven't tried Maplin's potting epoxy though did consider it.  I would have thought that it should be possible to take the individual parts out of the pack and put them in separate syringes.  Then squirt out equal amounts from each and mix it on a non metallic board before dripping onto the job with a toothpick.

No Gina, it's much easier to mix them in the box provided and put the mix in a syringe from which you can then apply the epoxy with a small needle. It makes applying the resin much, much easier.  The only problem, though is that you only need a tiny bit of epoxy and mixing the bags will give you loads. I suppose you can take a bit of the resin and hardener and mix them separately, taking into account the proportions given in the boxes. Using a toothpick would be an absolute nightmare! Anyway, if the resin goes into the sensor, do not worry; just remove it with isopropanol or eclipse fluid. Once you apply the dremel with the felt tips, the CFA will go away nicely.

Hi Gina,

Are you going to use the rotary tool with the felt tips? That will produce a very nice and smooth removal of the CFA. It will only produce microscopic scratches; those won't show up in a flat even at F22 (I've just tested it). They will only be seen though the microscope.

What is left, however, is some rests of some sort of coating which make the sensor not completely uniform. I was thinking about using solvent now that the CFA has been removed to achieve this (this would produce a perfect, golden, uniform, shining sensor). I have used nail polish but it doesn't work. I am sure the dicloroethane would have removed it but I'd rather not work with carcigen substances. I'm thinking about using toluene. Any suggestions? The solvent can even be left overnight forming a pool over the sensor if the epoxy I've used is applied all aroun as it will create a nice fence around the sensor.

Cheers, is it free flowing as in the video?

No, it has a slightly higher viscosity. Careful when applying it. Start by adding a very small quantity as it goes on to the sensor very easily.  I made a bit of a mess and I had to clean the excess with isopropanol. I had to use sensor swabs to keep it at bay -I suppose that practice makes perfect so it is a good idea to practice with a broken sensor if you have one. The resin will remain workable for about 15 minutes I would say.

I have also used this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261258107141?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

I already had a camera modified with a cold finger and Peltier TEC cooling but failing that I guess you could put it in the freezer.  Probably the whole camera with the USB cable coming out past the seal.

Where does one obtain this type of resin?

Ray

I got it from maplin online:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400609675218?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Only problem, though is that you have to mix the resin and the hardener in the boxes provided; you end up using 10% of it and discarding the rest! Anyway, it's about £8 the whole thing.

Well, I applied the epoxy yesterday night and today it's rock solid. I could now step on top of it and the gold connectors would still be protected. I have placed the sensor back and it's working fine. That resin seems to be the solution as it doesn't seem to affect the sensor -at least in the short term and at room temperature.

Gina, you wanted to test it at low temperatures. Any suggestions?

I'm planning to give it the dremel treatment tonight once the kids aren't around. Fingers crossed!

I too will be interested if this epoxy resin works - I tried ordinary slow cure epoxy and that didn't.  I had one debayered sensor that was fine at 20C but failed when cooled.  Whatever is used it needs to be good down to at least -20C.  Sometime I'm planning to have another go with an 1100D sensor as this is a better model than the 450D I have working ATM.

The 450D isn't yet in use for astro imaging as I haven't finished the enclosure.  I'm waiting on a replacement control board for my 3D printer as I shall be printing plastic parts to my own design.  In order to reduce the optical path to accommodate a filter wheel and OAG I'm replacing the main plastic frame that connects sensor and shutter to the front of the camera.

Hi Gina,

I'll let you know how that goes. Thank you for the offer Moxican. I bought the last two canon 450D sensors for £15 and £20 so it would be actually more expensive to ship the sensor from Canada that anything else! Nevertheless, I didn't even check whether these sensors work before the debayering process but I'm too lazy to disassemble my working canon 450D to try it!

I'd like your input guys on my suggestion about not placing back the sensor cover glass after the debayering process. I am after avoiding reflection and increasing the sensitivity of the optical train by removing as much glass as I possibly can. The idea is to protect those connections from moisture by using that epoxy resin. Here you have a video where they are doing just that in an integrated circuit:

Let me know what you think. Gosh! this thread has gone cold, hasn't it?

Pixueto,

Thank you. Sadly, I lost my second sensor because I broke only one gold filament. However, I have a good sensor (the first one) that is perfect to me. I used the silicone polish tip for remove the Bayer filter in the edges.

The dental tool is not ceramic. It is a hard silicone tool and connects perfectly to Black & Decker machine (by mandrel).  A previous inspection of the surface reveals apparent small scratches that don't affect the image quality (as seen in the flat obtained in F/22).

Rinaldo

That's interesting Rinaldo. As I said, when I inspected my debayered sensor under the microscope, I did see some small scratches. Those scratches were invisible at simple sight when the surface looks perfectly smooth. After what you are saying, chances are that they wouldn't be visible in a flat frame at F22? That would be brilliant. I shall be more careful with my next sensor and I will install it back before finishing the edges to check this possibility.

By the way, if the epoxy resin compatible with circuit boards does the trick, I plan to apply it all the way though the edges where the connectors are and I have no intention of placing the glass back over the sensor so I can increase the sensibility even further. Anyone sees any problem with that? I have been using my debayered canon 1000D without any protection on the sensor (as this is only a prototype) and it has been fine so far.

Dear all,

Finally, I have found some time to try Rinaldo's method. I, as Rinaldo did, went for a dry polish with the rotary tool. The results were very encouraging and I managed to remove all the CFA matrix. At first inspection it all seemed very clean without any scratches. However, a closer look under the microscope does show some scratches. Unfortunately, as the work progressed, I got too brave and confident and managed to break some gold connectors so I can't check how much of an issue these scratches are in the final images. Overall, a far better result than what I got with my working 1000D debayered sensor and this method shows promise in my opinion although there are some issues which need to be sorted.

These are the tools that I've used:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261211368960?var=560197392052&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191083563134?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

I am waiting now for my next sensor to arrive. I will now try applying an epoxy resin compatible with electronic circuits (chip on board, as one of the forum contributors suggested) to see if I can effectively protect these connections from a robust debayering process. This is the resin I have ordered from Maplin:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400609675218?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Rinaldo, did you manage to get a complete clean debayered sensor? I also noticed that some parts are darker than others so I assume that the surface isn't evenly polished in my sensor. That flat F22 that you showed us looked pretty well, though.

I would also like to ask you what do you think about using the rotary tool with fine glass polisher or even with a mini silicone carbide grinding wheel to make the surface even? I'm thinking about something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/15-PIECE-SILICON-CARBIDE-GRINDING-WHEELS-DISCS-USE-WITH-ROTARY-TOOL-INC-DREMEL-/161151019601?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item2585596a51

Or fine glass polishing with this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/80-PIECE-13mm-SMALL-FELT-POLISHING-15-25-/161064344528?_trksid=p2047675.l4066

Thank you

Thank you Rinaldo. Sorry to hear the second sensor is lost.

I had ordered the same Black&Decker  you are using and it arrived today. I'm still waiting for the cotton and felt tips to arrive from China -that may take a while, though.

I take that the scratches were caused by the silicone dental tool and they only happened in the edges? Is the cotton and felt tool smooth enough to avoid scratching the sensor in the main central area? Inspecting more carefully your photos, there seems to be a few little scratches only in the edges -I presume this is where you used the dentist tool? Have you though about using the tool with a bit of fluid to lubricate the process?

If that is the case, we may be better off using the cotton and felt tip with the machine and either:

-go back to the epoxy resin (but I think this has already caused some damaged sensors)

-covering the untreated edges with a thin line of black masking tape over the glass covering the sensor (a similar tape that the one is used on the hot mirror. This way the sensor would be cropped just a bit, covering the colour array leftover.

What do you think? I think it's doable now with a perfect finish? Well I may be talking too soon; I still have to try your system Rinaldo.

That's very good Rinaldo, thank you.

I have lots of questions if you don't mind:

-the ceramic dental tools, how to you attach them to the Black and Decker?

-the ceramic tools? Aren't they too hard? Did they scratch the sensor?

-Did you end up with any scratched area? I can't see any in your flat frame

-What F is your flat frame?

Many thanks. I am already inspired by this. Maybe it's time to go back to the epoxy resin to protect the sensor Gina? However, I'm still concerned about the amount of damaged sensors when the resin was applied. Maybe some black mask tape over the edges to nicely cover it would do the trick?

Thank you Rinaldo. Your flat frame is pretty good indeed. You have tempted me to have another go at debayering a 450D. Any chance of having a video uploaded with the process when you try it in your new 450D sensor?

Thanks again.

Thanks. Did you use any fluid while polishing?

Hi. After buying a Canon EOS 450D used, I decided to make it full spectrum (both filters removed). I thought and I decided to make the process of debayering. I used a wooden stick (used for manicures) to easily remove the layer of microlenses. The Bayer filter is much harder. For this I used a micro grinder equipped with a felt small disc (1 cm)t. The glass covering the sensor was easily removed (using a razor blade), so it was replaced in its original position to protect the sensor from dust. The work was almost perfect, except for the top and bottom edge of the sensor, which has been preserved not to damage the tiny wires. What do you think of my Canon 450D full spectrum debayered?

Pictures here:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34091483/IMG_3540.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34091483/IMG_3540_bw.jpg

Rinaldo

Can you provide us with a link to the tools you have used?

Thanks

We need to see a flat frame, really. Only then one can judge how successful the process has been. If you have a look at my flat frames in my debayered 1000D (which I debayered with glass polish), they are a mess and yet, normal daylight photos seemed unaffected.

Not sure Gina, it was given to me by a friend who works with cameras, it did not matter too much to me since it was a test, the glass was a pain...need to work on that but the bayer must be very similar.

i will try it next without the glue because the tool i used really works very well.

and no matter how (reasonably) hard i press i cannot damage the gold coloured layer.

Are you going to try again?

Ray

Try with a 1000D. The glass is pretty easy yo remove and they are sold second hand at a good price.

The Sensor is not dead...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11450954/DSC_3300-RAWcomposite.tif

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11450954/DSC_3300.NEF

Proof of concept, Nikon D40 can be debayered.

if it was worth it... i will never know.

Thank you. That looks very nice. It would be good to have a flat frame taken with that sensor too.

Can you confirm that all the CFA was removed without scrapping? Only by applying dichlormethane? I have a Nikon D80 sensor here and I'll have a go when I get round to it. I'm the other person in the forum using the dichlormethane approach.

What do you mean you don't know if it's worth it? Aren't you going to try that camera with the scope?

Thanks