please help me choose my first telescope.. :)

[AweSIM]

hi everyone.. very pleased to be registered on this forum.. ok heres the issue..

i live in pakistan where it is almost impossible to get a decent telescope and the only option is to import one from the states or uk.. a friend of mine is coming back from uk and i have just a few days to order a telescope to his place which he'll bring for me..

ive done (imho) extensive research on the telescopes that can be suitable for me.. my budget for everything is almost 400 pounds.. i wanna do astrophotography with the scope.. so a driven eq mount was a must.. i have access to a nikon d90 dslr.. i checked meade telescopes out.. the ones that suited my pocket was meade etx 125at but alt-az mount meant i had to purchase the deep sky imager with it which features some field de-rotation algorithm or something.. out of budget.. and i dont want a vga camera when i have a 12mp dslr.. my focus then shifted to celestron (my second favorite brand).. i shortlisted astromaster 130 eq md from there.. it costs about 190 pounds.. the next telescope on driven eq mount from celestron is c6-ngt which cost 750 pounds.. out of question..

till yesterday i was 100% sure id get ASTROMASTER 130 EQ-MD.. it had eq mount and simple motor drive.. i could spend the remaining cash on some light-pollution filters, t-rings for nikon, remote shutter release cables, etc.. but now im not sure.. i stumbled across SKY WATCHER 200p for 270 pounds.. and the astromaster 130 eq md has reviews stating its tripod isnt sturdy enough.. please suggest me a suitable telescope.. i have a week before i order and i dont wanna order something thatll disappoint me.. but i have to order.. its after seven years that im getting this chance and itll be a long time before i get it again.. shipping is terrible.. expensive.. and relatives dont come often from uk and states.. please help..

1 - i want to use the telescope for deep sky imaging.. not planetary imaging..

2 - polar mount.. driven.. preferably computerized.. since alignment is faster and better than if manual.. also the mount should be sturdy to piggy back a dslr..

my questions..

1 - is astromaster 130 eq md mount stable enough to do long exposure astrophotography? is the drive able to track well? worm gear imperfection tolerable?

2 - is computerized alignment better than manual? i can spend all the time aligning manually if i have to.. but which is more accurate?

3 - are telescopes from meade and celestron any better than those from orion and sky watcher? they certainly cost more.. but is that cuz of the brand or cuz of the optics and mounts? should i suffice with lets say meade etx 125at or celestron astromaster 130 eq md.. which sport reportedly flimsy tripods and smaller apertures.. or should i rather go for sky watcher 200p.. which offers larger aperture, direct slr connection, and a sturdier looking tripod?

4 - light pollution filters.. are they a must? i live in the city and there is a lot of light pollution here.. i do go up north to the hilly areas every once a while where there a lot less pollution.. but how effective are these filters in the city?

if you could name a telescope that fits the budget and the requirements and a store in uk where its available.. thanks for all the help in advance guys from the bottom of my heart.. please help.. and asap..

asim..

[malc-c]

No one can tell you what will suit your needs. If you browse the forum you'll see that there are lots of deciding factors including location that can make a small low budget scope perform better than a costly one. One thing for sure, a new 200P driven with a goto computer is almost double your budget, at over £700. The un-driven 200P eq5 is £400, but then you need to add an additional £100 for the drives, it can then be controlled from a laptop and software such as EQMOD. I can only assume the one you found was second hand ?

There is no "better" way to align. Once you have polar aligned the EQ5 mount you can select 1,2 or 3 stars to tell the mount where it is.. then if you have it set up right selecting an object via the goto controller makes the scope slew round and it should then be in the field of view.

IMO the 200P is in a higher league than the ASTROMASTER 130 EQ-MD. The mount is far better, more stable and with 200mm aperture will grasp a lot more light.

Light pollution filters can help, but there is nothing better than a good dark site.

As for what is better... there is a lot of debate as to the quality of optics for both celestron and SW... but both come out of the same factory... and probably off the same production line !

You'll just have to do some ringing round and seeing whats in stock. I can recommend the 200P but then what suits me may not suit you... especially as you may have to drive miles to a decent site just to see anything.

[AweSIM]

hey malcolm.. thanks a bunch for the prompt reply.. and i feel like an idiot already.. you were right about that.. the skywatcher i found was OTA only.. the one with a manual eq mount cost 400.. the one with synscan driven mount cost 770.. but ive done some more searches.. with a hundred tabs of meade, celestron and skywatcher and their dealer sites open already.. .. heres what ive decided..

1 - there arent any meade scopes that fulfill all the following criteria..

a - be under 400 pounds..

b - have an equatorial mount which is driven.. either by a simple motor control or goto controller..

c - have a sturdy tripod which wont budge with a dslr onboard..

2 - skywatcher 150p 750mm with neq3-synscan costs 600 pounds.. beyond my budget but i can push my budget up (and live on bread crumbs for the whole month..).. but it has the things i need i think..

a - equatorial mount with goto..

b - i dont know how sturdy the tripod is though..

3 - celestron 130eq md costs about 185 pounds on davidhinds ltd site.. its a newtonian with equatorial mount and an R/A drive.. it fits the budget and the eq mount means i can use it for astrophotography.. its f5 which means wide angle and fast photography speed for DSOs.. and i can spare the rest of the cash for accessories.. i think ill go for this one.. what do you think? can you think of something else that can suit me better?

im planning to get the following items.. please tell me if im making the right decision or not..

1 - astromaster 130eq-md (185 pounds)..

2 - astromaster accessory kit (55 pounds)..

3 - t-ring for 35mm nikon camera (12 pounds)..

4 - t-adapter, universal, 1.25 inches (29 pounds)..

OR

4 - t-adapter with barlow universal (23 pounds)..

5 - solar filter for astromaster 90 (25 pounds)..

6 - moon filter, 1.25 inches (15 pounds)..

total budget.. 320 pounds..

and a couple of more questions..

1 - i didnt understand the difference between the t-adapter and t-adapter with barlow.. the second one is actually cheaper which should not be the case.. i think i know it means higher magnification.. but is that good or no difference.. and can i use the adapter without barlow or is it fixed?

2 - ive seen some celestron telescopes on alt-az mounts that say theres an optional wedge available for them.. is that a stable config for astrophotography? if so i can opt for maybe the lcm series or other alt-az got telescopes..

3 - i didnt find a light pollution filter anywhere.. i dont think the astromaster accesory kit has it.. what can i do about it?

4 - i tried finding a solar filter for astromaster 130 but to no avail.. can i use the one for astromaster 90 instead? by mounting it on a home-made opaque disk?

once again.. thanks a lot for the help you gave me..

asim..

[ollypenrice]

I think that you are asking the impossible. To do deep sky imaging you don't just need a motor driven mount, you need a good motor driven mount. Most of the images seen on the forum are on mounts as good as, or better than, the HEQ5 Pro. A cheap mount will only give you a very short exposure time indeed.

If you want good pictures of the night sky, without trailing stars, on your budget then I would go for an Astrotrac and use the camera and camera lenses with an LP filter if you need one at your location.

Astrophotography Made Easy - Home

For astrophotography the mount is everything. The Astrotrac is far, far more accurate than the cheap EQ mounts from China. There are wonderful targets in the sky for widefield camera lenses. Although I used a costly mount to take this image of the Meissa nebula in Orion you could do just as well on an Astrotrac and a similar 85mm camera lens.

Olly

[AweSIM]

hi olly.. thanks for the info.. so in your opinion.. im rather better off getting just a mount that costs more but is sturdy instead of trying to get a whole telescope package.. am i right?

[brantuk]

"1 - i want to use the telescope for deep sky imaging.. not planetary imaging..

2 - polar mount.. driven.. preferably computerized.. "

Hi Asim - I'm sorry to say that unfortunately your budget is not going to match your stated ambitions. Olly's very good idea of an Astrotrac is probably your best bet for wide field work and will consume your £400 allmost entirely.

Computerised mounts with the right stability, load carrying capacity, and accuracy for dso photography will cost around £500 alone for a very basic one.

Then you need two scope/camera combinations (one for imaging and the other for guiding) plus all the mounting hardware, software, filters, dew solutions, and ancilliary equipment.

I would estimate an absolute minimum budget required of £1000+. You could save a bit buying second hand if your good at negotiating, but I fear you would be let down quite considerably with the equipment you are suggesting.

I would advise a lot more research and maybe get a good scope within budget to learn the sky first before delving into astro photography. Meantime you can pick up a very cheap webcam of the right type for around £30 and get some practise imaging planets first - that can be very rewarding.

But for dso photography I'd say don't rush into it - wait till you're at the right knowledge level first cos mistakes can be costly

[ollypenrice]

hi olly.. thanks for the info.. so in your opinion.. im rather better off getting just a mount that costs more but is sturdy instead of trying to get a whole telescope package.. am i right?

Yes. But this does not get you a telescope to look through, of course.

Your other option is to forget the phoptography and concentrate on visual observing, but trying to do both on a tight budget may lead to compromises that fail on all counts. That's the danger.

Olly

[AweSIM]

olly.. thanks a lot for your opinion.. i think ill get the celestron package for now and concentrate on visual observations.. maybe ill use the scope once a while to astrophotograph but i guess i shouldnt expect much.. later on.. i can try to acquire a more decent mount to use with the OTA and jump into astrophtography.. this is one expensive hobby..

cheers..

asim..

[malc-c]

aweSIM, My best bit of advice... wait!

You are trying to rush into something without really doing your research. Yes you've browsed around various sites and found lots of possible equipment that comes under your budget, but for what you want to do that equipment is inadequate. Save your money with a target of £1200 - £1500 and then look again. I'm sure most companies like FLO or Rother Valley will ship to your destination, but you would need to factor this into the above budget.

If you must get something that you can bolt a dSLR to, is fairly portable and would give you reasonable results under dark skies then look at the 150P on a NEQ3 mount with the sysnscan goto Explorer 150P NEQ3 Synscan With Free DVD | Telescopes | Rother Valley Optics - £560 but it would give you a start. But (as hopefully the point raised by the others has got across) double that budget and you are into the HEQ5 mounted scopes which will take the weight of additional guide scopes etc should you get seriously bitten by this hobby

Like I said - none of us here can make up YOUR mind for YOU !

[malc-c]

this is one expensive hobby..

cheers..

asim..

Asim, you are so right. but that is dependent on what you want to do. A car is a car, all cars go from A to B, but some do it faster and cost more than slower cars, others do it in comfort more than others, and cost more for that reason. Telescopes are the same.. they will all allow you to see astronomical objects, but some are larger and will allow you to see more and thus cost more, others are more sturdier and support larger OTA's and imaging gear and thus cost more... Generally you can't do imaging on the cheap

[AweSIM]

olly, malcolm, brantuk.. guys thanks a lot.. really thanks a lot more than lot.. .. i checked out the astrotrac mount.. i must admit it made me drool.. ive refined my ptions as follows..

option 1 - i can get the astrotrac deal.. it costs 700 pounds.. includes everything to get flying on astrophotography.. as much as i want to jump for that.. the max that i can spare is 550 pounds.. so thatll have to wait.. plus if i spend 700 pounds on a mount.. my familys gonna kill me.. to them its just a tripod and they cant understand how can a simple tripod cost so much.. =D

option 2 - get the celestron 130 eq md deal.. the ota seems nice.. the mount is equatorial.. not sturdy but i think visual observations will suffice.. i can get this one now.. and then when i raise more cash in a few months.. ill get a sturdier goto mount.. mount the existing telescope onto it and fire away.. the old mount would go wasted.. but itll serve me till that time well.. and the entire package can cost about 300 pounds..

option 3 - get the skywatcher 150p with neq3/synscan deal.. it costs 600 pounds but i think i might be able to manage that.. its got some great reviews.. and it was the reason i deviated from thinking of buying celestron in the first place..

option 4 - give up buying any package right now.. wait.. then when ive raised around 1000 pounds.. i can get the astrotrek and a good OTA to go with it and its dovetail mounting etc..

as everyone is rightly saying.. you need to have more cash.. either dont spend now.. or dont expect much now.. and dont aim for the stars.. ..

i think ill get the skywatcher 150p if i feel the mount and tracking and the OTA is good.. otherwise.. ill save the bucks.. raise more.. then come back to bother everyone here again.. ..

[brantuk]

I started with a 150P on EQ3-2 - it's an absolutely smashing starter scope and served me well for two years till I wanted something bigger. It'll show you most all the interesting objects and the only upgrade really required is a couple of good eyepieces - good choice

[AweSIM]

@brantuk.. brother.. that was a very encouraging comment and it served to reinforce my resolution towards 150p..

and since im so fond of asking questions.. one more question.. ..

- http://stargazerslounge.com/equipment-reviews/128430-skywatcher-150p-heq5-first-impressions.html

this is a thread on this forum by spanky.. the thread is a review of skywatcher 150P + HEQ5.. i have searched many websites of stores in UK that are dealers of skywatcher.. but none seem to offer 150P + HEQ5.. the closest deal i found was on Modern Astronomy []Skywatcher Newtonian telescopes @ Modern Astronomy.. this deal includes the following..

- skywatcher explorer 150p 750mm OTA

- NEQ3 SynScan mount

ive read in many places in this forum the HEQ5 is considered the bare minimum in the category of GOOD mounts for photography.. does that mean the NEQ3 SynScan isnt capable of taking good photographs? whats the difference between the two mounts cuz i cant seem to find a technical difference (except visually).. and if HEQ5 really is a lot superior, then can someone point me to a store which sells the 150P + HEQ5 deal?

thanks a bunch guys..

asim..

[ollypenrice]

The problem in imaging (as an astronomy provider I do a lot of imaging!) is that if your mount does not track the sky accurately you cannot get a picture. Full stop. The '3' series mounts are just not very accurate. The '5' series are accurate enough for serious imaging at moderate focal lengths. Even then, without an autoguider, you are limited to 2 to 3 minutes at best. An autoguider takes this up to as long as you like provided your focal length is not more than about a metre. After that you have to be very careful indeed and experience is a big asset. Don't go there yet!

Trouble is, lots of the manufacturers make budget mounts that seem to have what you need - RA drive, Periodic Error Correction, Equatorial orientation, etc. The only thing they don't do is work. That is the brutal truth.

You need to work on your family regarding mounts! Ask any imager on this forum to put scope/mount/camera in order of importance. They will all say mount first and most will say scope last, for a guess.

Olly

[malc-c]

Have you agree 100% with Olly.

I opted for the 200P on a goto EQ5 mount, thinking that the additional expense of a HEQ5 wasn't warranted as I wasn't really going to get into imaging. But now I find it just as much a thrill capturing pictures of the things we look at that deep down I wish I had stretched my budget and purchased the HEQ5 mount afterall. Don't get me wrong, the EQ5 can handle the additional weight of a DSLR body just fine, but it limits me to the exposures Olly mentioned as adding a small scope as a guide scope is going to push it somewhat.

The 150P has been packaged with various flavors of the EQ3-2 mount. You will have to buy the 150P OTA and the HEQ5 pro as separate items and try and negotiate a discount for a combo purchase.

Bottom line is that if you want to image rather than visual observations then due to the criteria of requiring a decent driven mount an option will be outside your current budget.

[AweSIM]

olly and malcolm.. thanks guys for further insight.. as of this moment.. im seriously thinking of delaying my purchase.. ill keep scouting for good deals though.. but from what everyone is (rightly) saying.. the mount is important..

a couple of years ago.. i fell in love with meade and celestron brands.. i raised a modest amount to barely get the meade etx 125at.. but realized that an alt-azimuth mount suffers from field rotation and besides.. the etx mount? those are pencils not a tripod.. so i gave up..

now ive raised twice that amount and im still not able to get a decent telescope that can let me do imaging.. thats really frustrating.. but i know and understand why you guys are advising against it.. better to not invest that be sorry..

in pakistan.. there are no telescope dealers.. the scopes which are available are departmental ones.. my dad got me one some eight years ago.. it was a refractor.. my first scope.. true.. but it suffered from chromatic abberation so badly that my brain has been programmed to stay a mile away from refractors.. thats just a phobia but still..

many stores in the neighbouring countries store a handful of telescopes from meade, celestron, sky watcher, etc.. but they're so terrible id never think of getting those..

and since the region has no prominent telescope dealers.. it makes it paramount for me to get a GOOD scope that ill be using for a LONG time.. i cant upgrade it cuz there's no one to buy it.. the hobby is so unknown here most people mistake astronomy for astrology.. a handful of astronomy clubs that are either remote or have really bad telescopes.. so in my country.. i feel im alone in this hobby with no one to share the experience with.. but as they say.. the net is your best friend.. ..

anyways thats the reason its so important for me to GET IT RIGHT the first time.. cuz the scope will stay with me for a VERY LONG TIME.. ..

so the final question.. i guess is.. if i save up now and get sky watcher 150P on HEQ5 mount.. ill be rewarded for the patience.. right? and do i need to get a guide scope too? for astrophotography.. or can i rely on the mount's tracking and my (future) excellent polar alignment skills to take exposures lasting 10 or more minutes?

asim..

[Ender Of Days]

"i want to use the telescope for deep sky imaging.. not planetary imaging.."

You do need a good fast scope for deep sky,the ETX is f15 which is too slow for deep sky (although great for planets)

There's been some good info and advice here so far but a complete set up will always be an expensive proposition,

Good luck,

JJ..

[AweSIM]

thanks everyone.. youve all been a great help.. if it werent for you people.. i was about to order celestron 150md in a day.. and then suffer.. im pretty sure now that ill save some more..

i checked the deal on skywatcher 200P HEQ5.. it costs around 780 pounds.. ive been pushing up my savings.. have sold my phone and now i have raised my buffer to almost 650 pounds.. im almost there.. in a month or two i might be able to get that scope.. .. when that time comes.. ill bug you guys again.. .. thanks a million guys.. youve been life savers..

asim

[ollypenrice]

or can i rely on the mount's tracking and my (future) excellent polar alignment skills to take exposures lasting 10 or more minutes?

asim..

You have absolutely no hope whatever of doing 10 minute unguided sub exposures on an unguided mount. Even people with Paramounts and AP1200 mounts use guidescopes and autoguiders. ASA claim to make mounts that can run unguided and some owners find they work. So far I have had five such owners/users at my dinner table and none of them agrees! I have a Takahashi EM200 which is very accurate but not in the least capable of serious unguided imaging beyond three minutes at short focal lengths.

In a word, autoguiders are a part of astro imaging.

Olly

ollypenrice's Photos

[AweSIM]

@JJ.. bro.. i craved for the etx back when i had no idea of the importance of focal length.. now i know the difference between slow and fast tubes.. and wide and narrow ones.. .. and true.. etx doesnt cut.. i have no idea why it sells so much.. maybe cuz its cheap.. wish they could lease telescopes.. installment contracts for a year or two like mobile phones.. .. that would ROCK!!!

asim

[AweSIM]

@olly.. wow.. that is seriously a revelation.. and a demoralizing one nonetheless.. i was thinking that if you had a good mount.. you could even attempt exposures for several hours.. but you disagree clearly.. so two questions.. (pardon me for so many questions)..

1 - what setup would i need for autoguiders? software hardware etc.. and is my target skywatcher 200P HEQ5 compatible with it or do i need to search again?

2 - i searched on AstroTrac a while back.. the tool is unguided driven tripod setup.. the reviews claim it to be the HOLY GRAIL of astrophotography tracking.. with exposures lasting upto 2 hours.. is that a lie then?

asim..

[malc-c]

Asim,

I'm no expert, and have just started playing about with taking pictures through my 200P. I would suggest that if you intend to start serious imaging, using a 200P, plus guidescope then you need to save more, and possibly look at getting the EQ6 mount.

Lets just say you choose to get away with using the 200P + HEQ5, average UK price at the moment is around £830. Then you need a guide scope, so lets say you do this on the tightest budget, lets add £100 for something like a startraveller 80. Then lets add say £50 for the additional brackets to piggy back it, and we're up to just under a grand and we haven't added the cameras yet. A typical price for a QHY5 guide / imaging camera is £190, so £380 for the pair. - Add in a few pounds for misc cables etc and I would suggest the budget is now around £1500. This is assuming you purchase all at the same time, you don't have to. You can start off with just the scope, bolt on your DSLR and get some excellent results stacking lots of short exposures....

At a recent star party in the UK I had the pleasure of seeing a set up on a top en mount, with a fully guided set up. On inquiring I was informed that if I walked into a showroom and purchased new all the equipment that was in front of me (a pair of Takahashi scopes with very expensive cameras) would of cost me anywhere between £25,000 and £30,000. The most expensive part was the mount, but even at this level there was always one "better".... in fact I've seen PE mounts advertised for £38,000 and no doubt the tracking un guided is possibly in the hours rather than minutes... but at that amount of cash I guess you would expect it. The point I was trying to make is that the grass is always greener on the other side, and that we can all dream, but you have to draw the line somewhere and get what you can for a given budget.

[AweSIM]

malcolm.. you are right.. this isnt gonna stop if i keep saving till infinity.. theres always gonna be something better thatll make you drool.. and youll start saving for it instead.. the end result would be that youll have lots of cash to spare but no equipment..

so i guess ill settle for 200P + HEQ5 for now.. use it for visual + short dslr exposures and stick to it.. better do something than nothing.. thanks for the advice.. thanks everyone..

asim..

[AweSIM]

I'd just like to pop in and thank all the wonderful ppl who replied to this thread to help me get started. I was just reading all the posts I started and had that nostalgic feeling. Thank you for your valuable advice. I am since a few years a proud owner of the kit you can see in my signature. =)