Atik says they have made the Titan

[NickH]

I think the point on this thread is that you have just dived in on a camera which nobody has yet used or really touched, and basically slapped it about. I tested cameras for Atik under NDA and this is not their first go at a planetary model (HSPC was eventually not made, and was made public). Whilst it may not be a Skynyx 2-0,2-1 etc, or as cheap as the DMK, it does open up a whole new area as a combination product at a very interesting price.

Let's wait until some firm results come in before any more is said. Various cameras (QHY etc) use the same chipsets as others...yet from end user reports, some people vastly prefer some models to others due to software/hardware configs etc...the chipset/CCD is only one part of the equation.. take Starlight for example...having to fork out extra just to get it to work with software galls me...but they make outstanding hardware, which many on here love and adore...they just use it with Maxim or Astroart... and IMHO at that pricepoint, it should not be so...but that doesn't stop Terry from making quite frankly some of the best deep sky cameras on the market, alongside Atik, SBIG etc etc..

I look at a product and the price/performance ratio

LVI missed it by a mile, Synguider hit it bang on IMHO

EQ6 bang on the money... etc etc

[Jamie]

I think that Paul has a point, and is (as a possible future customer) entitled to ask for such information.

The only bit that troubles me is the way you have said "what's the point". The point is someone specifically asked...and was initially given the brush off....

Any review you come up with now will come across as cosmetic and not have the technical credibility that serious imagers need & i am sure Basler wanted when asking you to test their camera.

[riklaunim]

Any review you come up with now will come across as cosmetic and not have the technical credibility that serious imagers need & i am sure Basler wanted when asking you to test their camera.

Well, this was Titan thread. I've got test cam not from Basler but from local partner to which Basler pointed me out. The company cooperates with local astrophotographers in Germany. The Scout series was tested and the circular artifacts were discovered in those cameras. The Ace series is new and it is a competitor for Point Grey Flea 3 from USA. They both are small, can have ICX618 and can do up to 100-120FPS on GigE (Ace) or Firewire 800 (Flea). Flea 3 hit the market earlyer than Ace and at the time I've got the Ace - it was used by few experienced planetary astrophotographers:

- http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/attachment_browse.php?a=75106

- http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/attachment_browse.php?a=76227

- sunspot first light, Kecktastic first light

- Flea3 : Flea3 new user group

The circular artifacts were solved in Flea 3 (present in some previous PG cameras). Basler Ace emerged as a alternative for Flea 3 in Europe. Prosilica camera with ICX618 had the artifacts like Basler Scout. Basler Ace in my test is fixed. Advantages of ICX618 are already known and CCD details aren't needed by astroimagers (while the producers know much better what are the electronic details of their cameras; both did not revealed any details about how they fixed the artifacts...). I've managed to check the artifacts which was the main questions for few much more experienced users from Europe and they will soon have Basler Aces and will produce stunning images from their bigger scopes (if it had artifacts = failure) For me ToDo is to check the temperature influence on the images as most of Flea users have low temperatures at the moment. And maybe later I'll switch to Ace or something else. I'm not decided currently. I would buy cooled ICX618 camera that would be able to do 30 or more FPS for planetary imaging as well for globular clusters and planetary nebulas I want to hunt.

Both cameras are supported only by the community. Point Grey is supported by Coriander on Linux and FireCapture on Windows (+something on Mac). FC also will support Ace. Both apps are made by astroimagers that use those cameras. Nobody is paying them for that as far as I know, nor no one is paying me for "testing" Ace

[narrowbandpaul]

i can assure you CCD details are needed by astroimagers.

I for one would never buy a camera without knowing what to expect performance wise.

And once i had he camera it would be given a full characterisation to make sure it performed to spec!

paul

[riklaunim]

It's hard to measure them + I only have partial support in FireCapture. But will do what I can. No one interested in Ace asked me about deep CCD/camera electronics details - it just "has to work" on short exposures at high FPS correctly - is what they probably expect (not intended for long exposures, guiding).

And note that for industry cameras Sony has a lot of black magick - someone from TIS wrote on their support forums that they know more than Sony publishes, but it's NDA/secret, and only for bigger Sony partners. DMK21 can technically do 60 FPS (but it has artifacts) while in public sheet it can 30FPS in progressive mode (TIS says 60FPS is not monitoring in their cameras but still progressive). ICX618 can do 60FPS in sheet, but 120FPS in those new cameras is ok (and no artifacts). So there is a lot of variables that some vendors may or may not use.

[Jamie]

Well, this was Titan thread.

Hey no problem.......I just thought that since YOU mentioned in the first line of your second post in THIS (Titan) thread that you were testing the Basler Ace that maybe it was relevant for someone else to mention it too......

[narrowbandpaul]

it is easy to measure.... thats why photon transfer is so good. Straightforward and gives lots of data for your efforts.

from PT you get....Gain (e/DN), Full Well, Read noise, PRNU (v important when stack large numbers of frames).

from Dark Transfer you get Read Noise again, DSNU, Dark Current.

i would definately want to know, Read Noise, Full Well, PRNU.

just need some flat fields and some bias frames!

please dont say its hard to measure. It is not. It is the defacto standard for testing all CCD's and CMOS sensors.

statements like it gave a clean image is not a review or a test of a camera!

[NickH]

And if you have the excellent AIP4WIN (and book) there is a whole chapter on this stuff...true godsend...

[NickH]

http://www.couriertronics.com/docs/notes/cameras_application_notes/Photon_Transfer_Curve_Charactrization_Method.pdf

If you don't have a copy of said book!

[narrowbandpaul]

there is even a whole BOOK on this stuff Piotr. This is the definitive book on camera testing. It was developed while James Janesick (Hubble WFPC 1+2, Gallileo...) was at JPL.

Its called Photon Transfer DN-Lambda.

Its a thoroughly excellent read, and tells you everything you need to know about camera testing.

The PT method is used throughout the scientific imaging community. If its good enough for them its more than good enough for me!

[davy999]

Well, i have no idea what all the specs mean, but i am now in possession of the aforementioned titan, and having read a few of the comments here i should be concerned about the quality and usefulness of this camera?

Well, I dont think so!

As far as I know it is an entry level cam for planetary and DSO imaging, it is exactly what i wanted and what i need to begin my adventure down the long long road of learning astrophotography.

It is quite clear that "certain" members just slate everything because its not as good as this or that.. well it is for each of us to decide.

What use would a top level camara be to a complete novice like me?

Why would I spend thousands now on something that could get me the best images possible when i am not sufficiently experienced in astrophotography to get anything more than basic images at the moment?

I will be trying out this camera in the next few days and deciding for myself if this camera meets my needs, but to be honest there have been several posts in this thread by people who's opinions I trust above others and their balanced opinions about this camera that I am sure this camera will do me just fine.

And as for slating a camera before even using one yourself is just short-sighted, biased, mis-leading and does not help the people the camera is aimed at i.e. people like me.

[Psychobilly]

Nicely put Dave

Peter...

[NickH]

Here Here!

[narrowbandpaul]

dave, all I need to know about a cameras performance is contained in the specs/datasheets. And being a scientist I deal in numbers and absolutes, not hearsay, and subjective comments. A review whereby someone says, 'I like it, it produced nice images' is **** as far as Im concerned. A review needs scientific data, and if the numbers are good then so will the images be.

and I hope your opinion wasnt directed at me.

i dont have any bias. I just want hard data not subjective wishy washy ****!

paul

[narrowbandpaul]

....the software has blanked the word that rhymes with 'trap'

[NickH]

If the numbers are good, then the images will be...hmmm

Human factors....?

:-)

So "can" the images be...if they have good firmware/drivers etc...

[AlanB]

I've been keeping an eye on this thread for a while.

Been quite amusing thb.

Looking forward though to the reviews of the Titan Dave as its the 'type' of camera i'm interested in moving up to from my lowly unmodded Canon.

Keep us posted please

Alan

Well, i have no idea what all the specs mean, but i am now in possession of the aforementioned titan, and having read a few of the comments here i should be concerned about the quality and usefulness of this camera?

Well, I dont think so!

As far as I know it is an entry level cam for planetary and DSO imaging, it is exactly what i wanted and what i need to begin my adventure down the long long road of learning astrophotography.

It is quite clear that "certain" members just slate everything because its not as good as this or that.. well it is for each of us to decide.

What use would a top level camara be to a complete novice like me?

Why would I spend thousands now on something that could get me the best images possible when i am not sufficiently experienced in astrophotography to get anything more than basic images at the moment?

I will be trying out this camera in the next few days and deciding for myself if this camera meets my needs, but to be honest there have been several posts in this thread by people who's opinions I trust above others and their balanced opinions about this camera that I am sure this camera will do me just fine.

And as for slating a camera before even using one yourself is just short-sighted, biased, mis-leading and does not help the people the camera is aimed at i.e. people like me.

[riklaunim]

Yes, the topic have driffted bit away

Atik 16ic £369.00

Atik Titan £459.00

Difference is £90. IMHO if you want cheap entry-level DS CCD camera - look at second hand market first - you may get something much better at similar cost or entry QHY/Atik/DSI at lower price (expecially DSI III from second hand USA market). 659 x 494 isn't much - it's not DSLR.

Resell value of smaller cameras, imaging filters etc. are usually much lower than shop prices.