Smart phone mount vs WiFi camera

[LondonNeil]

Thinking about ways to show young kids what is visible through the scope, both my own kids and possibly the Beaver colony one goes to.   I had been thinking put my smart phone in a mount on the eyepiece but I just came across this WiFi camera

https://a.aliexpress.com/_EQUgP6r

I hadn't thought about an astro camera before and could imagine a specific camera and WiFi to a phone or tablet could be much more secure and maybe better views.   Am I on the brink of an EEVA rabbit hole?

[Elp]

It'll cost more but you can do the same with an astro camera connected to a laptop via usb. Very likely the software experience and quality will be much better too.

[LondonNeil]

True, and actually having an astro camera to play with and try some imaging would be something I'd like to do .  Not right now,  but in a year or three. Maybe I should watch for a cheap used astro camera sooner then I thought... ugggh!

[Elp]

The ZWO 485mc is a good used buy, good for planetary and DSO. Maybe even the 385mc which is older, the 585mc is the newest. Other manufacturer cameras are available usually cheaper.

Edited April 17 by Elp

[LondonNeil]

Thanks, I'll look them up.  

[PeterStudz]

I use an app on my iPhone - AstroShader - that live stacks and auto-aligns. No tracking necessary and you’ll see the image immediately on the phone screen without processing. Recent image of M13. And I’m in Bortle 7. 

 

Edited April 17 by PeterStudz

[jjohnson3803]

I've been searching for a WiFi camera for awhile and so far haven't found anything that has reasonable reviews.  I hope some new products are coming, but I'd be leery of super cheap offerings.

[PeterC65]

Yes you're on the brink of the EAA rabbit hole, but the good news is that it isn't quite as deep as the AP rabbit hole.

I'd also recommend getting an astro camera and just connecting it via a USB cable to a laptop running SharpCap. Used astro cameras come up for sale very regularly if you just want to test the water. That's what I did then sold my first (used) camera on to buy something better new.

There are lots of additional things you can do once you have a camera (mount control, plate solving, camera calibration) but these are not needed just to be able to show on a screen what you can see with an eyepiece (you'll actually see much more and then maybe fall down the rabbit hole).

 

[PeterStudz]

PS -  I/we (my daughter is much the same) could not just look at a screen. We like to see and observe targets through an eyepiece. I can see the attraction of going all out EAA, but it’s not for us. 

The smartphone images are an addition, sometimes just an afterthought, usually at the end of a session. Obviously the use of a screen will ruin dark adaptation!

Edited April 17 by PeterStudz

[LondonNeil]

Cheers I've read you say that peter, makes sense.   I've got a Mak127 and a st120 which I set up either side of as gtiX and my 3 kids are learning NOT to grab the ep but:

My most I'll interested is the 3.5yo, and I'm not entirely sure he can see stuff.... he always says he can but...hmm

Even with 2 scopes sometimes there are more eyes than pieces and a lack of patience 

I suggested an astro session to the Beavers colony leader and she nearly bit my hand off.....2 dozen 6 yo 8yos .... some just won't manage I reckon so I started thinking....OK for those that struggle I'll mount my phone.... then I came across the WiFi camera above and,  well you can see.... I'd like to try Bit of imaging at some point (I've already got the polar wedge for the gtix) so I would be happy to buy a cheap used camera for a try, and upgrade if I got hooked. 

What's the zeo asi 120mc like?  There's one on astrobuysell for £80, which feels like a decent amount to spend to try something out.   

Or there's an svbony for £80 new

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Svbony-Astronomy-Eyepiece-Observation-Telescope/dp/B07KWPDHHM/ref=asc_df_B07KWPDHHM/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309904628344&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7166958958262557755&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006668&hvtargid=pla-737380870930&psc=1&mcid=f092758ad49a363186e7c97f9f01e14c

 

[PeterStudz]

1 hour ago, LondonNeil said:

Cheers I've read you say that peter, makes sense.   I've got a Mak127 and a st120 which I set up either side of as gtiX and my 3 kids are learning NOT to grab the ep but:

My most I'll interested is the 3.5yo, and I'm not entirely sure he can see stuff.... he always says he can but...hmm

Even with 2 scopes sometimes there are more eyes than pieces and a lack of patience 

I suggested an astro session to the Beavers colony leader and she nearly bit my hand off.....2 dozen 6 yo 8yos .... some just won't manage I reckon so I started thinking....OK for those that struggle I'll mount my phone.... then I came across the WiFi camera above and,  well you can see.... I'd like to try Bit of imaging at some point (I've already got the polar wedge for the gtix) so I would be happy to buy a cheap used camera for a try, and upgrade if I got hooked. 

What's the zeo asi 120mc like?  There's one on astrobuysell for £80, which feels like a decent amount to spend to try something out.   

Or there's an svbony for £80 new

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Svbony-Astronomy-Eyepiece-Observation-Telescope/dp/B07KWPDHHM/ref=asc_df_B07KWPDHHM/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309904628344&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7166958958262557755&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006668&hvtargid=pla-737380870930&psc=1&mcid=f092758ad49a363186e7c97f9f01e14c

 

I’ve done a few “outreach” type events for young kids and to be honest DSO are tricky even with EAA. I also don’t think that many kids would find it that interesting and attention could go rapidly. Might work but involves much more effort to make it good - I think.

For me the ones that have worked are the planets/lunar and solar. Eg I did a lunar, Jupiter and Saturn session with kids at my daughter’s school. They were 10-12 yr olds. Seeing the moon with its craters, Jupiter, its moons plus the GRS, Saturn, its ring and the Cassini division, Saturns moons… they were so excited I had trouble getting them away from the eyepiece. This was all done in twilight and to begin with you couldn’t even see Jupiter/Saturn naked eye which added to the magic. It was also easy to do and managed - ie it didn’t require much skill on my part.

Even just lunar, on a good night, can be brilliant. But it helps to know your stuff. Eg names of craters/features, where the Apollo space craft landed etc.

The other has been white light solar, with obvious safety precautions. Although most of the kids loved the safety briefing which I made a big issue, danger and all of that. Because it’s obviously all done in daytime, the kids can clearly see the telescope, eyepieces, focuser, how stuff works etc… which makes it all the more interesting. As a finale I showed them Venus in daylight. Again, you could not see it visually by eye - look up and there was nothing… look in the eyepiece and there was a bright planet Venus showing a phase.

Edited April 17 by PeterStudz

[Elp]

3 hours ago, jjohnson3803 said:

I've been searching for a WiFi camera for awhile and so far haven't found anything that has reasonable reviews.  I hope some new products are coming, but I'd be leery of super cheap offerings.

The Pegasus Smarteye might be what you're after, though at the other end of super cheap.

[Elp]

1 hour ago, LondonNeil said:

What's the zeo asi 120mc like? 

The sensor size is very small so you'll get a very cropped (or zoomed in so to speak) view. It's better suited for auto guiding duties. The better one which is similar but slightly larger sensor size is the 224MC as it is also an excellent planetary camera, if you keep exposures short you can also do DSO or EAA with it, I've test imaged M13 with it in just 10s exposures per image, appears straight away whereas in a scope visually you can barely make it out with averted vision, at least where I am (bortle 7 LP zone).

If you have a camera body at hand, you can attach a t ring, t nosepiece adaptor and put that into the focuser of the scope and try that though a body isn't really suited to planetary imaging due to the large sensor size and the need to take very very fast and numerous photos in less than 5 minutes of so, the moon will image fine though take a few to better increase your chance of capturing it when atmospheric seeing is relatively still. Long focal length scope without auto tracking will be asking for trouble though for the images, you also definitely need a timed shutter, remote or intervalometer to avoid touching the setup because of the vibration it causes.

Edited April 17 by Elp

[PeterC65]

1 hour ago, LondonNeil said:

What's the zeo asi 120mc like?  There's one on astrobuysell for £80, which feels like a decent amount to spend to try something out.   

Or there's an svbony for £80 new

I've not used ZWO cameras myself but they have a very good reputation. The ASI120MC is their most basic camera but it is not dissimilar to my first astro camera which was good enough to persuade me that EAA was worth a punt. I would stick with a well regarded brand and get a colour camera as the images are more appealing. You could sell on the used ASI120MC for the same money.

You can observe DSO's via EAA but to do so you will usually have to stack multiple frames using software such as SharpCap. If you just plan to do live video then that will be limited to the Moon and brighter planets, and maybe things like M42. Bear in mind that with live video you get the same sort of atmospheric wobble that you see through an eyepiece.

 

[LondonNeil]

Jupiter is my initial idea.  Might do a few other planets too although by next winter Saturn's rings will be getting hard to see won't they?  I did notice in January most of the solar system is visible at 7pm mid beaver session.... 

But yes,  Jupiter and the moon are probably all I'd have time for.   An hour session for beavers.... let's say 48 minutes after arrival,  admin, allowing for getting them from the hut to the space across the street where I'll be.... one lodge of 6 Brought to me at a time... they get 2 mins with each scope....so just one or two targets I think 

[Elp]

Planetary is relatively easy once you know how to focus, a tracking mount helps especially if the scope is long focal length, if not available you just have to get the knack of nudging the scope along to keep the planet in view. Finding the far outer planets can be a challenge though.

[Elp]

If you really REALLY want to see some of the sky wonders (emission nebula, larger galaxies) AND you want it to be easy to achieve, up the budget and get a ZWO Seestar. See the owners and imaging thread for more info.

[LondonNeil]

Not sure where dso came into this.  I didn't suggest it,  not for just enhanced visual which is what I'd been thinking about.   I mean I love the super photos others produce but I don't want to start down that road yet. 

[Elp]

A camera opens up the possibility as it can see over time rather than at the time, and you don't need to learn post processing when doing EAA, or with a smart scope like a Seestar. In the end it's your choice how you wish to proceed.

[PeterStudz]

12 hours ago, LondonNeil said:

Not sure where dso came into this.  I didn't suggest it,  not for just enhanced visual which is what I'd been thinking about.   I mean I love the super photos others produce but I don't want to start down that road yet. 

I think DSO were assumed because that’s where EAA and similar excels - eg it can enable you to view something that you can barely see, or not even see at all, visually through a telescope. And close to real time too, with just a short delay.

EAA, especially simply attaching a camera to the eyepiece, is poor for live planetary views. Stacking, processing and editing is a very different matter. You’ll get better live views through an eyepiece. The moon is an exceptional example. Even in my little cheap and basic travel/grab-and-go Newtonian the moon looks far better than any image I’ve seen. And always gets a “wow… ohhh… arghhh” type comment.

I have used a mobile attached to an eyepiece in order to point-out lunar features to a group, but then it’s back to the eyepiece. Of course with the planets and the moon there’s no need to get eyes dark adapted. In fact it’s a disadvantage.

With two telescopes it could be useful and fun to have one for visual and one with a camera attached, but it’s a lot more work.

[LondonNeil]

Thanks Peter,  that makes some sense.   I can see this EEVA and AP rabbit hole will take a lot of work to navigate!  

[RT65CB-SWL]

I purchased a Wi-Fi camera for my ‘scopes. I could not get the damn thing to connect. 

I tried a cheap Tesco CMOS webcam many years ago and a Phillips Toucam ll and although I did not do any imaging at that time, the views certainly made it a great tool for outreach events. Only downside is the length of the USB cables.

I now have a secondhand ZWO ASI120MC, so I am looking forward to see how that performs.