Scope Recommendations.

[Wolfstar]

Hiya,

Looking for some help with regard to a home based EAA / AP setup.   Specially - what scope and filters would you suggest for this task:

 

(1) Widefield / DSO objects

(2) Less than 8kg for telescope (mounts I have are rated at 15kg and 13kg)

(3) Easy to setup and maintain i.e. hold collimation well if a reflector

(4) Bortle 5

(5) Using DSLR, ZWO ASI 462MC and 533MC 

(6) No guiding and only basic post processing on any AP.

(7) Budget of £1,750 for scope (excluding any accessories needed (Filter)).

 

Big thanks in advance. 😊

Edited February 23, 2023 by Wolfstar

[Elp]

Widefield and DSO generally don't go hand in hand. And a lot of targets will need AP like exposure time so you will likely need guiding.

My Z61 is considered a widefield scope at 360mm FL but handles a lot of DSO targets quite well. Smaller galaxies however are quite small so that is a limiting factor as well as the aperture.

It might help if you can specify a few targets you'd like to image, Telescopius helps a lot with regard to framing so perhaps take a look at that. Your scope budget is quite generous I'd say.

[Wolfstar]

34 minutes ago, Elp said:

Telescopius

Hiya and thanks - I had in my head ;  Andromeda to Sombrero Galaxy.  I suspect a bigger aperture than WO Z61 ... was thinking some like  the Explore Scientific Comet Hunter (150mm , F4 ... hence reaching out for advice.

[Cosmic Geoff]

What do you have already? You could spend a lot of money and find the rig does not do quite what you wanted.

I use the following for EAA:  102mm f5 achro refractor, ASI224MC camera, EQ-5 Synscan mount, Sharpcap 4.0, cabling and software for platesolving.  I had  all this stuff already but it works well for EAA, and if I was to change anything I'd probably go for a ED refractor and/or a camera with a bigger chip.

I also used a C8 SCT, focal reducer and similar camera for EAA occasionally.

Why not read the EVAA threads on this forum and see what folks are using and what results they got?

[Wolfstar]

38 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

What do you have already? You could spend a lot of money and find the rig does not do quite what you wanted.

Why not read the EVAA threads on this forum and see what folks are using and what results they got?

My current scope is for planetary only a 150mm F12 CC and mounts are AZ and an EQ (I am happy with my other kit) ... just need a suitable scope for EAA/AP.  I had a brief look at the EAA section - but many folks seem to have started with an existing scope and then moved into EAA , hence many have ended up with general scope like an SCT and then added an expensive Hyperstar route or a 0.5 reducer (not sure of quality for AP).   But I am starting from a clean slate, scope wise and also looking for opinions around ease of setup and maintenance - hence an F2 RASA for example sounds difficult for me.  A Scope that does EAA over a broad range of targets and a bit of AP is what I am after.  I have suggested something like a Comet Hunter (think Skywatcher do a slightly bigger version. but is heavy) might be the direction to go ... hence asking  , or a biggish refractor (120mm F6)?

Edited February 23, 2023 by Wolfstar

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, Wolfstar said:

Hiya,

Looking for some help with regard to a home based EAA / AP setup.   Specially - what scope and filters would you suggest for this task:

 

(1) Widefield / DSO objects

(2) Less than 8kg for telescope (mounts I have are rated at 15kg and 13kg)

(3) Easy to setup and maintain i.e. hold collimation well if a reflector

(4) Bortle 5

(5) Using DSLR, ZWO ASI 462MC and 533MC 

(6) No guiding and only basic post processing on any AP.

(7) Budget of £1,750 for scope (excluding any accessories needed (Filter)).

 

Big thanks in advance. 😊

So in Bortle 5 you will want a UV/IR cut and a Duel narrow band filter.

Honestly with the requirement to use such filters with a DSLR and or a 533mc pro I would personally be looking at a flat feild scope to make changing between cameras and backfocus a none issue.

I would go with something like this as you can image smaller targets at 600mm without the reducer.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/askar-telescopes/askar-80-phq-f75-quadruplet-astrograph.html

or

You can use the reducer and image at 456mm for the wider targets.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/askar-telescopes/askar-80phq-076x-full-frame-reducer.html

But you say wide feild in at the same time as wanting more apperture..that doent really make sense.

For true wide feild I would looke at the smaller 65mm

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/askar-telescopes/askar-65-phq-quintuplet-flatfield-astrograph.html

Its a better choice for things the size of M31.

Adam

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Adam J

[Wolfstar]

51 minutes ago, Adam J said:

So in Bortle 5 you will want a UV/IR cut and a Duel narrow band filter.

Honestly with the requirement to use such filters with a DSLR and or a 533mc pro I would personally be looking at a flat feild scope to make changing between cameras and backfocus a none issue.

I would go with something like this as you can image smaller targets at 600mm without the reducer.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/askar-telescopes/askar-80-phq-f75-quadruplet-astrograph.html

or

You can use the reducer and image at 456mm for the wider targets.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/askar-telescopes/askar-80phq-076x-full-frame-reducer.html

But you say wide feild in at the same time as wanting more apperture..that doent really make sense.

For true wide feild I would looke at the smaller 65mm

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/askar-telescopes/askar-65-phq-quintuplet-flatfield-astrograph.html

Its a better choice for things the size of M31.

Adam

Adam

Thanks 

"But you say wide field in at the same time as wanting more aperture..that doesn't really make sense." ... isn't the focal ratio the primary consideration?  an 8" RASA at F2 frames Andromeda very similar to a Z61 at F6, - this is why many use big SCT and Hyperstars and reducers, and the exposure times will be a lot less compared to Z61?   I might have got this totally wrong . Anyway;

I do like refractors and they tick a lot of my boxes (especially ease of setup etc).  They look nice quality scopes and the 80mm APO seems to frame Andromeda with a DSLR and smaller  targets like Sombero really well with the 462MC , leaving 533MC covering the middle ... maybe a 100mm would be a good fit.? Especially as I plan to do a WO REDCAT at some as, a really portable rig, and that would cover the real Wide Field stuff?  A 150mm Classic C for planets,  a 80mm or 100mm for EAA and 50mm for widefield portable i think seem to fit well together?  I already have IR cut filter but will read up on the duel narrow band. 

Something like  SharpStar 94EDPH f/5.5 Triplet ED APO Telescope | First Light Optics or Sharpstar Z4 Sextuplet APO Astrograph | First Light Optics (no Flattener needed and a bit of budget stretch).  Whilst not FPL53 they would still be great for EEA and some AP.

Thanks - I think talking it through with others helps a lot to narrow down options buzzing around in my head, and these sort of scopes last for life.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Wolfstar

[Ratlet]

Comment deleted as I didn't read the question properly 😳

Edited February 24, 2023 by Ratlet

[Elp]

Whichever scope you get, you want larger aperture which will mean more focal length (so less widefield) as per @Adam Js point above. This will also mean guiding will be required and a better mount and you said you didn't want to guide. Shorter focal length and guiding isn't so critical.

I have a hyperstar with a C6, it is very capable and not really very difficult to setup and use (I setup and break down from fresh every session), but I wouldn't recommend it to a beginner. I find it easy as I'm used to setting up different equipment and adjusting backfocus and any other issues on the fly, you need some experience to get to that point. It no different from being able to collimate a scope. I wouldn't pay too much attention to f ratio, it's just a calculated number and doesn't really mean much in practice. Yes, image brightness with a fast f system does "accumulate faster" (it doesn't as you can't change the speed of light) so you have to take shorter subs (like 10-15s max sometimes) but it doesn't necessarily make it faster if you're doing a long and deep capture, I've found aperture makes a larger difference especially to resolution.

If you can, you could stretch your budget to a Rasa 8, they are very capable but note some in the market have an optical issue so I'd buy it new if you were to go down that route. It is however a widefield FL so you won't be necessarily capturing those small galaxies in massive detail. The ES comet hunter looks like an interesting scope, through I'd doubt it would be as easy to setup as a refractor. A large Newtonian would give you the aperture you want, but also a long focal length, the older Orion astrographs I've always liked the look of but try finding one now.

Getting a scope is a personal decision and usually one scope won't do it all (though I my C6 generally does with added expensive add ons). The two targets you mentioned are kind of polar opposites, Andromeda is bright and a reasonable size and can be captured with DSLR lenses very well, the sombrero by comparison is quite small and would require different optics to frame and capture it at a decent size well.

Maybe you need to meet up with a few people to see what they've achieved, or you can look on astrobin as a start, but as the images are processed you won't know how much they've cropped the images by.

[900SL]

Lots of good advice above. My tuppence worth:

I looked at the comet hunter in some depth. There's a few issues with the mirror cell clips causing diffraction, and collimation is more difficult than a newt. I've not seen many good images on Astrobin. 

For a 533mc a 90mm f6 gives a good pixel scale for image resolution, however without guiding you will need shorter focal length unless your mount is low PE and your PA is dead on.

Dual narrowband filter like the IDAS NBZ (good QC). Although this will need guiding due to exposure length in bortle 5

[Cosmic Geoff]

11 hours ago, Wolfstar said:

Andromeda to Sombrero Galaxy. 

That will be difficult to achieve with one scope, as the Andromeda Galaxy is several degrees across and the Sombrero is quite small, as are many other targets.  I found that nearly all targets fit within the half degree field of my no-budget 102mm f5 & ASI224MC setup.   My object was to get better views of deep-sky objects that I could obtain visually.  From this point of view, the low-priced 102mm Startravel does the job. Trying to improve the images further could send me down a rabbit hole of expensive APO scopes, expensive cameras and expensive filters.  Typical Startravel EAA result is attached.

You do not need a large aperture unless your aim is to collect high-resolution images of small targets.  As with many areas of astronomy, one setup will not do all things well.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Cosmic Geoff

[Wolfstar]

Thanks for the help.

After a few hours last night on Astrobin I thought i had nailed it down - until i read the thread this morning - lol ,  so now even more confused  

I was thinking £1,000 for a ES Comet Hunter (until 900SL  feedback above) as it covers a broad range of targets, not to heavy, good resolution on moon etc, and once collimated the secondary it holders it very well (which is ok todo - I would never touch the Primary).  I also read a lot of good reviews (see end for YouTube).  The images I saw on Astro Bin looked good to me from a EAA perspective and noob AP;  Elephants trunk nebula ( rdv_astrophotography ) - AstroBin and even Sombrero M104 ( Ed Litoborski ) - AstroBin . Admittedly these are all AP work, with massive integration times and post processing. 

EAA has as many definitions as there are stars in the universe, with some only taking a single exposure (more akin to visual) and other like myself who are quite happy to let an image live stack for 30mins or more, thus my instinct says go for aperture and hence i was also planning within the same budget of £1,750 (approx) to get a WO RedCat 51 (or similar) to give cover more of the realy Wide Field end of targets and provide a truly portable and learn more about AP world option. 

 

It seems like two paths - (1) a 100mm reflector like Cosmic Suggests, providing excellent EEA views and some AP if I go for an APO within budget, easy to maintain and use, and add a RedCat at a future date, or (2) ES Comet Hunter + RedCat now - noting the harder collimation and 900SL feedback. 

Thanks again for the really excellent feedback.  I probably need todo more for research.  But, still very interested to know what you would personally acquire scope wise given a £1,750 - £2,000 budget, to try and meet these requirements.

 

Bye the way, what is considered a DSO - when starting out thinking beyond planets I thought any thing outside of our Galaxy was a DSO ...  hence Andromeda is a Widefield DSO - but from the conversation I now suspect its not?

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Wolfstar

[Elp]

Andromeda is a DSO, I think you get the impression people have communicated that it's not because people have stated it's size and brightness and comparison to the sombrero. With that comparison they're two different types of targets, but yes both DSO. The difference can be demonstrated thus, Andromeda is so large and bright that even a miniscule phone camera lens can capture it, the sombrero on the other hand no chance, which further demonstrates the different optics required to capture both well.

You understand what EAA is but I'll provide an example here which I will refer to again later. EAA in essence is the same as AP, it just doesn't require the hours and hours people put into AP. An example, when I had my 130pds I tried visually looking at m13 from my bortle 7, I couldn't really see it, only a slight dark smudge with averted vision, so I put my 224mc onto the scope and magically with 10s exposure it was there, so I then tried around 10 minutes of 30s exposures, this is in essence EAA. If I were to image it for AP I'd probably do 1 hour of 30-60s exposures and then post process it.

You don't necessarily need an expensive scope for AP, but you do need a capable mount to handle the scope and decent post processing skills. Personally I think any scope between 60-150mm will do, a lot will depend on your local light pollution. As per my second paragraph I could just about make out m13 visually with a 130mm Newtonian due to my light pollution, a bit more so with my 150mm C6, but not with my 60mm refractor, if the skies were darker I'm sure the result will be different. All three however capture it well with a short exposure via camera. So aperture isn't necessarily everything, a samyang 135mm DSLR lens captures something like Andromeda extremely well as well as many other DSO targets.

[Wolfstar]

 

Decided to purchase a WO Z81 and start from there.   Thanks again all.