Choice of CCD

[jambouk]

I'm looking to get a new ccd camera.

I am using a 180 mak and want to do some planetary and lunar imaging. Though ideally i'd like to be able to use the camera in the future for dso stuff on a faster scope.

I can't face a mono camera with filters, so looking at colour options.

I was thinking under £500.

I like the look of the dfk cameras. I'm not sure still though whether i should go for smaller chip faster frame rate, or larger chip slower frame rate.

Any opinions?

Thanks

James

[Earl]

I think you should change your game plan a little to be honest.

A Mono camera which can be a guide camera later, will serve you far better than a colour camera.

A QHY IMGOH is a good contender and can be used also for a dabble with DSO.

Ill probably be getting one in the near future

[jambouk]

You are not the first person to mention the QHY IMGOH. I'll have to have a bit more of a look online later.

I don't really want the 'hassle' of RGB filters, or a filter wheel, I wanted to try and keep the leads and reliance on the laptop to a minimum for now. If I had a pier and an observatory it might be different but I'm still lugging everything around at present.

I'd only need guiding if I got into DSO in a big way, a few years down the line maybe and would need a different scope anyway, so I'm happy to pay out <£500 now for something to enjoy for a few years on planetary and lunar.

Thanks for the comments.

James

[jambouk]

Re: http://www.modernast...tary.html#IMGOH

What is the guide port for?

"The IMG0H has a built in guide port, 14bit high speed AD converter and cooling, making it a true all round camera and an ideal first choice for beginners. Requires regulated 12 volts @ 2Amps."

James

[jambouk]

I had been thinking about the DFK cameras:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/search.html

It seems with them it's a case of what do I want, fast frame rate, or larger chip.

James

[ollypenrice]

For the planets you don't need the larger chip. It would be great for lunar and solar, though. I have the DMK21 but would rather have the 41 because I could image the sun in two panels.

Just a thought on filterwheels; manual ones are fine and don't add any cables.

Colour cameras are fine for guiding. I used mono and OSC Atik 16ic cams for guiding and could not tell them apart.

Olly

[badgerchap]

The guide port allows autoguiding software to communicate with a mount via the camera without the need for a USB interface

Posted via Tapatalk on an ageing iPhone so please excuse any erroneous spellings or accidental profanities!

[jambouk]

I thought maybe it could guide and image at the same time, but it seems not. I'm not planning to guide any time soon, but wanted to know what the guider port was.

Two more questions:

1. Is there any disadvantages of having a larger chip for planetary imaging?

2. With these dedicated astro CCD cameras, for planetary imaging, is higher frame rate per second better related to better results?

James

[Fogboundturtle]

I suggest the ASI120mm. You can search on CN how much people have abandon the the DMK/PT Grey camera for that little 300$ chineese camera.

[ollypenrice]

Larger chips are not an advantage for planetary and slow down the frame rate. A fast frame rate is important, yes, because the planets are rotating fast enough to blur in a fairly short video clip.

Olly

[riklaunim]

Some cameras support ROI with faster framerate. You get a bigger sensor that at full frame is slow, but if you choose like 400x400 sub-frame it gets faster (so you can have a lunar/solar + planetary camera in one). Good cameras with speed-related ROI support are made by Point Grey, IDS, Basler and also astronomical ASI (like the 120MM) or QHY 5 cameras. TIS cameras don't support that.

For all-in-one you can look at Point Grey Blackfly (GigE) or IDS Imaging (USB2 or 3) or optionally even Ximea (USB3) cameras with e2v sensors (cheap older sapphire sensors, more expensive latest ruby sensors). Other option is PGR Chameleon (USB2, not very fast), or other Point Grey cameras with Sony ICX6** sensors (check sensor and connection before buying).

Solar System cameras won't work good (or at all) as DS cameras as their design is different. They may work as guide cameras.

[jambouk]

Blimey, that is some knowledge about the cameras.

Does it matter these days if the camera is CCD or CMOS?

I wish these manufactureres would show the prices. I suspect most of them are well in excess of my budget. I'll have to email them all individually and ask for prices, or just tell them to say which are under £500.

Thanks

James

[badgerchap]

From what I know most manufacturers only sell through agents. Don't know if this is exactly correct, but it would explain the homogeneous lack of pricing on websites! If you want a deep space CCD for under £500, the second hand market is a good place to look. Astrobuysell UK in particular, and on SGL of course!

[jambouk]

I keep an eye out on ABS. It's initially planetary i'm after initially.

Sounds like small chip fast frame rate is the key for that. I'll stick with my DSLR for experimenting with DSO stuff for now.

Thanks.

James

[badgerchap]

Have you had a pop with a webcam for planetary, just out of interest?

[jambouk]

Yes, i've got a quickcam pro 4000 which i got off ebay for £36. I'd like something a little better so i can get above 5 frames per second

And i was hoping there would be a cam which would allow me to play with planetary and lunar now, and some DSO stuff in time, to save buying another ccd then.

James

[badgerchap]

Yeah that would be nice, but for some reason I think manufacturers like us to buy one for each. I wonder why that is....

[jambouk]

What sort of computer specs would be needed to capture 60fps, and what lead os needed to transmit this kind of data from camera to laptop?

James

[badgerchap]

I would expect any modern-ish computer to be able to cope with 60 fps. I know mine can, although it does get a bit grumbly and the fan gets a-going.

[riklaunim]

What sort of computer specs would be needed to capture 60fps, and what lead os needed to transmit this kind of data from camera to laptop?

60 FPS of VGA (640x480) resolution is doable for USB2. You get that with the DMK21AU618, or bigger sensor supporting ROI.

As for CCD versus CMOS - the Sony CCDs are very good (especially the newer ones), while CMOS to be good must be one of latest designs to be good (not many, but usually they are faster, bigger and cheaper a bit).

If they are good you will get usually equally good results.

IDS UI-1240LE-NIR

http://www.rkastrofoto.appspot.com/site_media/astro/orig/moon-23-04-2013/moon4.jpg

UI-1240LE

http://www.rkastrofoto.appspot.com/site_media/astro/orig/moon-08-03-2012/maturation-uv_based.jpg

DMK21AU618

http://www.rkastrofoto.appspot.com/site_media/astro/orig/moon-17-09-2011/zMoon_IR_17_09_2011_021621.jpg

http://www.rkastrofoto.appspot.com/site_media/astro/orig/moon-17-09-2011/zMoon_IR_17_09_2011_021621.jpg

http://www.rkastrofoto.appspot.com/site_media/astro/orig/saturn-27-04-2012/dmk-big-q7-orgb.png

[lensman57]

Yes, i've got a quickcam pro 4000 which i got off ebay for £36. I'd like something a little better so i can get above 5 frames per second

And i was hoping there would be a cam which would allow me to play with planetary and lunar now, and some DSO stuff in time, to save buying another ccd then.

James

Hi James,

With your 180 Mak, which is about F12 you need to find a camera with very high sensitivity and very low noise, anything else and the noise and low framerate will spoil your fun. I am afraid that this means one Sony's ICX 618 series chipped cameras or some thing with Sony's IMX 035 EXMOR CMOS chip. Both will cost an arm and a leg and you'd probably have enough left from your £500.00 to buy an IR/UV cut filter.

A.G

[jambouk]

Two more questions, sorry:

3. If I were to just do planetary and lunar, would I still need a sensor with very low noise as the object(s) would be brighter than DSOs, and I'd be taking video rather than longer single frame exposures?

4. Does noise pose an issue when recording 'video' with astro-dedicated CCD/CMOS cameras or is it mostly with longer exposure single frame shots?

James

[jambouk]

riklaunim, lovely images.

James

[riklaunim]

With your 180 Mak, which is about F12 you need to find a camera with very high sensitivity and very low noise, anything else and the noise and low framerate will spoil your fun. I am afraid that this means one Sony's ICX 618 series chipped cameras or some thing with Sony's IMX 035 EXMOR CMOS chip.

IMX035 isn't that good to buy it. And any scope would love a sensitive and low noise camera, not only a Mak.

3. If I were to just do planetary and lunar, would I still need a sensor with very low noise as the object(s) would be brighter than DSOs, and I'd be taking video rather than longer single frame exposures?

Typical "planetary" camera can photograph some surface-bright DS objects. It won't be as stunning as good picture from a DS camera, but still with good processing skills it may show the actual DS object nicely. This will works for objects like stars (globular clusters and alike) and surface-bright planetary nebulae. Fast f/4-f/5 scope recommended.

In that case you catch an AVI (or a batch of BMP/TIFF frames) with 1-few sec exposures and process it similar to planetary AVI (although you will need a dark frame etc.). With good data, and processing skills you can get something like this: http://www.astrokraai.nl/viewimages.php?id=200&cd=7 (made with ICX618 based planetary camera)

4. Does noise pose an issue when recording 'video' with astro-dedicated CCD/CMOS cameras or is it mostly with longer exposure single frame shots?

For lunar/solar/planetary camera noise isn't a problem until you stick to bright enough objects/setups. Saturn, and especially Saturn blue channel are dim so max gain + quite long exposures are needed. If the camera is noticeably noisy then the Saturn blue channel will be also noise (inevitable).

[jambouk]

Damian Peach is currently using an ASI120 camera, and he says its top notch for the price, so i've ordered one

Thanks all for the replies and when it arrives i'll give some feedback here.

Thanks all for your comments and for helping me come to a decision.

James