Ships and Stars

Welcome. Portugal is a great country, worked for a short period in the Alentejo, really liked it there in the rural countryside 👍

Another vote for the 8" dob! 

1 hour ago, scarp15 said:

Good idea to focus on taking your collection of binoculars Robert on a dark sky trip that is otherwise too windy for anything else. Interesting comparisons made between the different pairs and of course the capability for filtered observing. An exposed windy night with binoculars, it's in the spirit of J M W Turner, who had himself lashed to the mast of a steam ship, for four hours, during a snowstorm so that he could complete his work. Not exactly comparable to that extreme, but in the spirit of determination. Those wide field views of nebulae including dark nebulae are engaging, when enabled to observe more of the expanse of their formation.  My last dark sky session also involved using binoculars though with the comet. Hope you gain a chance to take one of the dob's out next time - as do I, fingers crossed for later in the week. Yes actual SQM readings give a true indication to conditions at a specific place and time.

I'll have to read up on this Turner chap, sounds like my kind of guy (edit- ah, THAT Turner, yes, sorry, I could see him doing that!). The wind put paid to any thoughts of setting up a dob. It would have spun around in circles, as my 300p base is set with minimal tension on the azimuth.

The binoculars were definitely the way to go. You can hide behind things from the gusts ripping through! Determined astronomy 🤣 

The NAN is one of the first objects I viewed through a telescope, but in hindsight I think most of the time I looked right through it and don't think I used a UHC at the time as I was using a 2" EP. The UHC really makes a huge difference under good skies. Last night it was like a painting - lots of aperture is great, but you lose widefield views and miss out on some of the best sights I think. Also seeing both east and west veil with binocular vision is something else. I'd like a tripod for that next time so I can study it in more detail.

The SQM varies and the night was still relatively young so perhaps more lights were still on. I wasn't far off a town a few miles away and it's built up a bit more, slowly  but surely, as has the general area. I took running SQM readings as I approached home (the roads were empty!) and it was interesting to see the readings slowly drop. It actually remained at 20.9 SQM until I was within a few hundred metres of town which was nice to see.

Thursday night is looking potentially like a winner. No moon, clear skies forecast across the NE and little to no wind. Hope the midges have moved on...

4 minutes ago, jetstream said:

My experience with binoviewers on nebula shows up the beam splitter's effect that  reduces brightness in the eyepiece ie the false exit pupil idea. On lunar /planetary this is not a concern and can be a benefit IMHO. Based on this I believe that the 100mm binoculars will outperform the 300mm/binoviewer set up, of course I could be wrong and probably am wrong lol!

True binocular summation, with no prisms involved (binoscopes) gives much to the observer only hindered by the fact the binoculars are Achromats? this could be an issue but most likely not, depends.

Yes I think the results will be interesting. I'll try this at home with the 300p and obsy bins first unless I get a chance to head out again soon, but thinking the binoviewer vs binocular thing might surprise me.

1 minute ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Great report and enjoyable read SAS.

 

baz

Thanks Baz, it didn't go quite to plan with the location or weather, but still an enjoyable night. Found a new observing spot as well with good views all-around, pretty sure it's public access, though I need to knock on some farmhouse doors and confirm this!

15 minutes ago, jetstream said:

The power of binocular summation at work!

There really is something to this and youve tapped the resource, excellent observing Robert

Thanks Gerry, as you say, binocular summation does wonderful things. Firing on all cylinders, so to speak. I used to think an OIII filter was more or less mandatory to see the Veil, but there are so many other factors, i.e. magnification, surface brightness, FOV, contrast etc that come into play. After last night, once you know what to look for, I think any old decent pair of unfiltered binoculars would show the East Veil under dark enough skies.  

I can't wait to try the 100mm Quantums now under dark skies. I modded filter attachments for the 20x eyepieces, but still need to do the 40x EPs, though I might leave those for now as the exit pupil is much smaller at 40x. 

This will be interesting, as setting up the Quantums with my DIY scaffolding tripod requires roughly the same amount of effort as setting up my 300p flextube, though I can leave the tripod outside as it's fully galvanised and no one is desperate enough to steal something that cheap and heavy 🤣

So at some point, it's a widefield battle between the 20/40x100s vs the 300p flextube with binoviewers 👍 You'd think the 300p will run away with it, but who knows? 

Due to very strong winds, I left the dobs at home and took a quick binocular trip to darker skies last night  - 21.19 SQM according to the Unihedron (LP map says 21.50...), not exactly world-class, but decent enough to see the Milky Way quite clearly. I couldn't go to my normal 21.7 or 21.9 spots due to cloud cover, but was thrilled to see dark skies once again. Think February or early March was the last time I saw the Milky Way.

This is a mix of a brief observing report and binocular 'trials'. It's by no means a detailed report or product review, but I did a quick running comparison between several pairs of bins on this outing - my trusty cheap and cheerful Celestron Cometron 12x70s which punch well above their weight,  the all-around wonderful Pentax WP 20x60s and the astro-champs, the Helios Apollo 15x70s with filter attachments.

Also along for the ride were a pair of Helios Quantum 20/40x100mm observation binoculars and my massive 'Kraken' scaffolding tripod, but the wind was absolutely howling a steady 30-35mph - even more on high ground to the point I had trouble standing at times - and in the end I didn't set it up as I already had my hands full with the three other pairs.  

I've had the 12x70 Cometrons for a few years now. Despite some poor comments out there online, I absolutely love mine as they are light and offer excellent wide-angle views, even with glasses. If the true aperture is reputedly less than 70mm, I can't tell!

The Apollo 15x70s and Pentax 20x60s are relatively new additions, as are the 20/40x100 Quantums, and I've been itching to give them a proper run under dark skies post-lockdown.

Last night's highlight was the East Veil and especially the North America/Pelican nebulae using UHC/OIII filters on the 15x70s. The NA/Pelican were absolutely alight through the filtered Apollos, just buzzing with energy and full of contrast. The North America nebula in particular just looked like it was battery-powered, situated against an inky-black background. Electric!

The Astronomik UHC filter proved a perfect match for binocular viewing, offering a bright, high contrast image over unfiltered views. The OIII was a bit much for the modest aperture, though it did really isolate the East Veil. Overall, the view though the 15x70s framed everything around Deneb, etc brilliantly. I'll have to pick up another 1.25" UHC so I'm using UHC with both eyes, though mixing filters does provide its own unique aspect as the brain combines the two images. 

If you've never seen the entire North America nebula or Pelican though UHC-filtered binoculars under dark skies, may I humbly suggest you put it on your must-see list!

The difference between unfiltered and filtered was massive. I've only seen bits of both it and the Veil through a telescope, albeit with more detail, but never soaked up the entire view at once. Widefield binocular vision is wonderful if the sky darkness is there!

Again had some excellent filtered views of the Veil with the 15x70s bins, but was pleasantly surprised to also see the east Veil without filters in the 12x70s, 20x60s and 15x70s, with hints of the west veil and Pickering's Triangle considerably fainter, going in and out of vision.

I also had a nice long look at Andromeda through all three. Somehow, the lowly Celestrons offered the brightest view of Andromeda, closely followed by the 15x70s, but here the smaller aperture and higher mag of the Pentax had a slightly noticeable dimming effect, though they are no slouch either and all three have their own style. In fact, the unfiltered views of the East Veil were brighter in the 20x60s than the Celestrons. This back and forth difference suggests there's a lot more going on here with various binoculars in regards to exit pupil vs surface brightness/contrast when viewing extended objects.

For astronomy, the 15x70s ruled the roost last night. They come into their own with the filter attachment which sets them apart from the others, but be warned, these are some robust, heavy binoculars. They weigh around twice as much as the Celestrons, despite being roughly the same dimensions. 

I didn't use a tripod or any support all night - a good workout 

The Celestron 12x70s continue to amaze me for the money. Maybe I landed an exceptional pair, but they provide wide, crisp, contrasty views, are comfortable with great eye relief for eyeglass wearers and are light. True sky-cruisers. Wish they had filter attachments!

The Pentax are superb do-it-all binoculars for terrestrial and astronomy. Excellent Pentax build-quality and optics, plenty of magnification, central focus, light and compact with a ton of eye relief. They only have a 2.2deg FOV, but in action this quickly becomes clear it's not a deal-breaker.

There was more planned, including the California nebula with Hb/UHC but I spent a long time on the Veil, NAN and Andromeda, then high cloud started creeping in, along with fatigue, as I did quite a bit of driving to find some holes in the cloud here.

More head to head binocular testing with this lot in the near future, vs the 20/40x100 Quantums (David and Goliath? Could be interesting?), hopefully under 21.5+ skies with much calmer conditions.

9 minutes ago, Robindonne said:

This is very much true.   Balancing behind my binoviewer isn’t really working.   I often  point them horizontal to the right side, the left side is quite dangerous with standard thread in the diagonal😑, and sit down steady.   That way the merging doesn’t have to take place after every moment of imbalance.

Yes, me wobbling around on foot or hunched over makes binoviewing focus and merging images that much harder. I use a small set of cheap steps with the big dob, but it has a handrail I can lean against to steady myself. 

Binoviewers tend to be a love/strongly dislike item with astronomers. I don't think many use them exclusively, but those that have a pair bring them out for lunar, planetary, etc as needed. I'm hoping to use mine tomorrow night under dark skies again for smaller DSOs like planetary nebulae, then lunar.

My best views hands-down of the moon are with binoviewers, no comparison. Like flying right over the surface and much less eye fatigue, and that's just with the 20mm bog standard WO eyepieces. Single eyed I've used Ethos, APM, Morpheus, etc. Those are great eyepieces and views, but not like binoviewers for lunar.

I love binoculars, especially ones that take filters. 12x70s, 15x70s, 20x60s, 20/40x100s... Just saw the entire veil through 15x70s the other night for the first time, even under 19.5 sqm town LP using UHC and OIII filters.

I have a simple set of Williams Optics binoviewers I picked up second-hand, and after setting IPD and getting focus right with the individual helical focus, they're brilliant. I find on occasion I have to let my eyes drift a bit before the images merge, but this only takes a split second. I don't get headaches or anything from using them, quite the opposite, much more relaxed and engaging than single-eye viewing which now gives me eye strain very quickly unless I take numerous breaks.

The reason(s) I don't use BVs exclusively are because: 

a.) I mainly view DSOs, specifically nebulae which really need widefield views and with a fast dob, my BVs need a glass path corrector or barlow to reach focus, so I lose the wide views a 2" EP like the APM 20mm 100deg provides...

b.) I'd need to buy more eyepiece pairs £££££

c.) for faint DSOs, the light to each eye is halved vs single-eye viewing, so sometimes faint objects are harder to see, but I've managed the Horsehead through binoviewers quite easily, though it was with a 20" dob under 21.8 or 21.9 skies using eyepieces carefully selected for the right exit pupil and mag. Although the light to each eye is greatly reduced and objects are dimmer, seeing them in stereoscopic vision makes up for quite a lot of this, though I find single-eyed views have more contrast (probably because they're brighter!). Pros and cons, pros and cons...

I think my big purchase this observing season will be some Denkmeier Binotron 27s with the 45 OCA and the powerswitch/filter slide. Hoping to find a pair second-hand, though I'm probably dreaming...

Do what works for you though! If you've gone through five pairs already, then at least you can say you tried. I find being comfortably seated with careful individual eyepiece focusing and IPD setup, I'll relax my eyes, and the images will drift and merge into one quite easily. 

Recently had surprisingly decent views of the Veil Nebula (both E & W plus a bit of Pickering's Triangle) with 15x70s and UHC/OIII filters. This was under 19.9 sqm town light pollution. Out in the countryside, under 21.4 or darker, things should really pop. North America nebula, California, etc.  Auriga has loads of things to view later in the season with binoculars as well. 

25 minutes ago, johninderby said:

The Taurus 20” dob isn’t that badly priced if you can’t get the SW.

I've see those for some time now, wondering if anyone here has one (any size) and how they quality is? They used to do a 24" I thought, maybe that was Hubble Optics. That one is a bit dear! 20k I think... 

15 minutes ago, John said:

I doubt they sold many. Nothing wrong with them I expect but I can't imagine the market for 20 inch scopes is that big and a proportion of those who aspire to that sort of aperture might decide to splash out a bit more on a David Lukehurst custom job or an Obsession ?

 

That's a good point John in regards to the Lukehurst or Obsession custom scopes, I can see how buyers might opt for one of those instead, thinking mass-produced is of lower quality in areas. I know a few people online had 500p primary mirrors they weren't happy with, but I sense they wanted really high-end optics or one or two marginal mirrors did in fact get out the door. I'm happy with mine, rarely go over 222x anyway, though I've used 444x once with decent results.

The 500p is actually a lot of scope for the money, especially second-hand, considering it has goto and the mirror design with the ribbed supports underneath which cuts mirror weight considerable and cools very quickly. 

I'm still trying to figure out if a 20" binoscope would equal a 28" dob, considering the much-debated notion that binocular vision is equal to 1.4x the aperture, i.e. a 10" binoscope would be the same as viewing through a 14" dob.  I've read anywhere from 1.2 to 1.4x, though ultimate resolution would remain higher with the larger aperture single scope set-up from what I read...

Anyway, that's another topic!

Thanks again.

As the very happy owner of a SW 500p dobsonian, I noticed FLO had stopped listing them, so I looked around and even the main UK distributor OVL no longer lists them.

Wondering if anyone knows if they are coming out with a MkII version, or if there was a run of problems with them? I know a very small handful (like two people) have complained about the primary mirror, but there must be other happy owners out there besides myself? Mine has been brilliant and holds collimation better than my 300p flextube, even after repeated disassembly and reassembly of the truss rods and long journeys. A very solid frame and great portability for a 20" GOTO scope. 

My aperture fever has returned lately, so now I've start dreaming about finding another second-hand 500p and making a 20" binoscope, rather than trying to buy/make a monster mirror and build a 300kg scope which requires a trailer and a 3m ladder.

I find using both eyes is so much more immersive, relaxing and enjoyable, so rather than hunt for that truly giant dob, dreaming about pairing up some 500p's. I'm halfway there...

Nice one John. I viewed Mars through a scope for the first time last night - used the 10mm BCO and 2x powermate. I didn't do much research beforehand, so didn't look out for the polar caps or the seas, but could make out some detail. I did note the three seas you mention.

I viewed around 12:45am, wanted to wait until it was a bit higher in the night sky for better seeing here, but had to get some rest as the kids keep us on our toes in the daytime.

I think we still had a bit of jetstream up here last night, but seeing was ok. Not brilliant, not terrible.

Thanks for the report and the information 👍

I have an f4 and an f4.9 dob, the APMs are excellent choices in my experience. I've the 9, 13 and 20mm XWAs but if you don't want to go that route, there are plenty of other APM offerings with a narrower FOV that are less expensive to boot. Was thinking about the 30mm, but it's effectively the same overall fov as my 20mm. Baader Morpheus have good reviews, I've the 17.5mm and really happy with it. The Baader 10mm classic ortho is very sharp too and very reasonably priced. For budget, the Starguiders are popular though I've not tried them. I had a few Televue Ethos EPs for awhile, certainly no complaints in the optical quality department, but gradually sold them off as I was afraid I'd drop one and damage it or lose it at my dark sky spot! The APMs give very similar views for a fraction of the price. There are also the Explore Scientific EPs in an array of different field of views, generally well regarded overall, but no personal experience there. For wide field, I'd perhaps look for the lowest power ep that still gives an exit pupil around the 7mm mark. 

51 minutes ago, Budgie1 said:

Thanks S&S,

I'm in a nice spot for dark skies but have a hill to the East and tall trees to the NE & South. So I can't see Jupiter at the moment and Orion is blocked as well.

The main thing about down here is the cloud cover, I think, on average, you stand a better chance of a clear night in the NE than us West Coasters. But at least I only have to go into the garden.  

We do get some nice clear stretches for a few days at a time, but certainly envy you being able to view from home. I can see a bit from mine, but with local LP it really means a lot of driving for me to get to my preferred spot. Worth it though when everything falls into place. 

Welcome back from NE Scotland. You've some really dark skies over your way. My best spot is a tick over an hour from home, visual astronomy. Hoping we have a good season with enough clear nights to keep everyone happy.

I find a decent pair of 15x70-ish binoculars (ideally a pair that accepts filters) are great for rushing outside for a quick observation in between clouds if the forecast fails to inspire enough confidence to set everything up. This usually tides me over until a decent night comes along. The days are getting shorter in a hurry as well. I have decent astro darkness here in NE Scotland now from 22:30 to 3:30 now. Last night was my first bit of observing since early May (I missed Neowise!)

8 minutes ago, John88 said:

I did see the Pentax but bit expensive for me at the moment but maybe I should save my pennies and wait for a good deal 

I think picked up the 20x60s for £140, as new, box and all. I had to jump on those fast. Paid substantially more for the 15x70 Apollos second-hand. 

The Celestrons were silly cheap, but I've had a lot of use out of them. Can't fault them one bit.

@John88 I just found these 15x70s online, the seller says perfect collimation. Decent for £50 and might satisfy the binocular bug? 

I try to weigh the difference between waiting ages for a nice bargain, or buying what's available at the time within my budget so I can actually get out there and start viewing, and when I have a few quid saved up and a really good deal pops up, then I'll jump on it. 

Don't think you can go to far wrong with some budget bins that are in collimation! 👍 Beats an expensive pair that aren't! 🤣

I can't say on the Opticrons, I think they are generally well-regarded for the price, but worth looking at reviews. In the range you mention, I've some 12x70 Celestron Cometrons, 15x70 Helios Apollos and a pair of 20x60 Pentax. I love the Cometrons for the price (£27 second-hand), build quality is ok but not amazing, optically ok my me, and seem very similar to the 15x70 Skymasters. Light, plenty of eye relief, easy to hand hold, central focus wheel so no fiddly single-eye focusing  - not a big deal for astro if you set up infinity focus at the beginning, but highly annoying for terrestrial use.

The Helios are in a different league, much beefier build quality but weight around twice as much (2.5 or 2.6kg?) and I struggle to use them hand-held for any length of time without support. They do take filters which is a massive plus for astro, For example, I caught the entire Veil last night with UHC on one side and OIII on the other. They've the individually focusing eyepieces, but I only use them for astronomy so no problems there. 

If I had to choose one pair for astro, I'd go for higher magnification and something that takes filters as I get a bit bored with low mag/non-filtered views pretty quickly, but that's just me and a lot of people happily go lower than 11x. 

The Pentax 20x60s are just the bees knees for all-around use, I use them for birds, ships, jets, astro, anything really. They have a somewhat limited FOV (2.2 deg) compared to the others, but you quickly learn it's not a problem. They are so light and compact compared to the Celestrons & esp the Helios. In addition, the Pentax is outstanding optically to my eyes, has tons and tons of eye relief (I use them only with glasses) and aare easy to handhold at 20x for me as they're so light. The only drawback is they don't take filters, but I've already got my bases covered there.

I've really been wanting to try the Apollo 22x85s as a bridge between the 15x70s and my 20/40x100mm obsy bins. 

PS I buy virtually all my equipment second-hand when it pops up online. A few duds over the years, but a lot more toys for the money and occasionally truly superb bargains appear 👍 

4 hours ago, jetstream said:

Last night we observed the moon using a few simple eyepieces, among them a razor sharp 12.5mm ortho. Hard to beat really. There were Circle T's, Taks, Fujis and the 10 BCO out- all vg.

I had my first observing session last night (for the 2020-2021 season), a short one, but the 10mm BCO is my go-to eyepiece for PN (once I've located them) and would be great on planets I'd think. I don't seem to get on with the winged eyecups in general on Baader EPs, but the one on the BCO works perfectly for me, especially when viewing from home to block out stray LP as there's plenty of that. I struggled a bit with it at first on galaxies early this spring, but in retrospect think that was more to do with town LP as I couldn't get to my dark sites due to lockdown. Overall, the BCO seems hard to beat. Might be too much mag/too small an exit pupil on a mak, but definitely worth a look. 

PS @alex_stars I haven't done much planetary (yet) but would some affordable binoviewers with a couple of nice orthos be ideal for this? A lot of people don't get on with them though.  Just thinking.

Hi there, check out light pollution map  

Being Chicago, you'll really want to head as far away as possible. Closest places I see that look promising are between Bloomington IL and Wast Lafayette, IN.

If you are really going for the win, N. Minnesota, S. Ontario, W. Nebraska or S. Dakota!

I'd love to try observing from eastern Nevada someday.

By the way, I lived in Louisville KY for a bit many, many years ago. 

5 hours ago, Jiggy 67 said:

I’m the same as you, do very little, if any observing during the summer which I always regret because there’s a lot of summer objects I miss out on, but work etc, make the VERY late summer nights impractical. I intend to put all that right in the summer of 2022 because I will have retired 🎉🎉 I also will begin setting up again in the next 2-3 weeks.

Regarding Neowise, be quick and use your bins, I had a great view through my 10x50’s and everyone says the view is better through bins than a scope.

Welcome back

Thank you! Ah retirement, I've a long way yet! Thanks also for the tip on the binoculars, that's probably about all I'll be able to muster given my available time at the moment. A good glimpse will at least cure the fever before it disappears. 

1 hour ago, Gina said:

Welcome back 😀

Thanks Gina, hope you are well! I'm hoping to have a good observing season this year once the midges disappear. Late last August, I set up in the heart of the Cairngorms and was absolutely overrun with midges. Even my van was filled inside with all the windows closed. It was a bloodbath despite headnet, coat and repellent. I'll observe locally at my closest spot until September. You should be getting proper darkness around 1am now your way according to the trusty suncalc. We've not had a particularly brilliant summer here, June was persistent fog and the rain has been frequent since then. A few good days, hopefully more before autumn. 

16 minutes ago, scarp15 said:

Perhaps your binoculars Robert, get to a lofty location with a good NW / N horizon and if possible no light pollution. Of course the sun will be impacting a little. Best from about midnight onwards, probably the last good opportunities in the next few nights. A breezy site for obvious reasons would be applicable 🙂 

Thanks Iain! I've had so much on I missed the best nights here. I looked about two nights ago, just naked eye, but I'm down too low to see much here. Need to get up to the local hill and have a shot. Hoping for at least a glimpse before it vanishes for the next 6800 years