davyludo

1 hour ago, Fredster1970 said:

Does anyone think the AZ5 head if mounted on the 1.75” steel tripod would take a C6 ota?  I have the steel tripod already, bought it cheap but just been waiting for an AZ head. Just want something quick and easy for when I can’t be bothered with the setting up and powering up of the SE mount. 

I notice there is an AZ5 on Astro Buy and Sell. If anyone was interested. I not ready to buy anything just yet.

I believe the AZ5 states a load weight of 5kg with the standard tripod. However, I think the manual mentions that the "heavy duty" variant (which looks like it has a steel legged tripod) has a load weight of 9kg.

https://teleskop-austria.at/information/pdf/AZ5_AZ-5.pdf

10 hours ago, Phil73805 said:

@davyludo Thanks for sharing your first hand experience, that is really helpful! Just a couple of questions:

Firstly, what exactly is stiction?

Secondly, when you talk about the 1.75" Steel tripod, do you mean the one they sell with the HEQ5 mount? Based on a rubbish picture online there seems to be a deepish inset in the centre of the tripod top designed for the HEQ5. Is that not a problem with the AZ5 that has a flat under-surface that links straight to the standard mount? I'm tempted to buy one if I can be sure it's a good fit. It sounds like the AZ5 is fine but 1) the standard tripod is not good for a heavier 'scope and 2) I didn't even try to balance it and it was fairly front heavy which will almost certainly have contributed to the severe shake at high mag when trying to focus.

It has been around ten years since I last used a Refractor on a mount. I've been using a Skyliner 200p Dobsonian with its customary rock solidness. It sounds like I don't need to return the AZ5 which is a relief, I just need a better tripod and balancing.

Hi Phil, 

Glad my comments were of some use to you. 

Stiction.....don't actually know where the term comes from. I imagine it's something like "sticky friction". Anyway, when using the AZ4 you sometimes find that to get it to start initially moving, you need to apply a bit more force than is required once it is already moving. So what happens is you push a bit harder, which means you over shoot your target. This is what spaceboy was getting at when talking about having the clutch done a bit tighter - if you can balance the force needed to initially overcome the friction between the surfaces, with the force required to move once already in motion, then it's all happy days. 

Google has given me the following definition: the friction which tends to prevent stationary surfaces from being set in motion.

Hope this makes sense. I am in no way saying the AZ4 is a bad mount, it's a great piece of kit. But when using a short frac (like an ST102 or ST120) stiction can be a bit more noticeable due to not being able to easily obtain perfect balance. 

Yeah it's the same 1.75" tripod that is used on the EQ5/HEQ5 and AZ4 (I believe). I had to take a hacksaw to the little alignment peg and then buy a 3/8" bolt (fully threaded). I have some pictures somewhere that I could put up if that would help? 

Cheers, 

Davy

16 minutes ago, spaceboy said:

While I have re-greased my AZ4 so it's probably a tad smoother than out the box, I can't say I have any sticktion issues. I admit I did when I first had it as it is kind of intuitive to think, the less tight the clutches are, the smoother it will move, but I actually found too loose and that's where issues arise. If the clutch is slightly tighter you may need a slight bit more force to move it over say a giro mount, but the action is dampened nicely and so it isn't sticky. I agree balance is key to any friction AZ mount and this isn't always easy accomplished with smaller scopes.

I have to say I always enjoyed using my AZ3 albeit for daytime solar (hopeless for night time observing above 55-60°) so I have no doubting the flexibility of slow motion control would win over many a manual mount, and if the AZ5 performs well on a beefier tripod then there is no competition. Sky watcher do seem to take customers comments on board so maybe there may be a version II come out with a better tripod or even M10 thread in replacement of the 3/8" in the future ?? Is there anyway to tap the thread out to M10 so it can drop straight on to a 1.75" tripod or are the bases hollow cast and there is a lack of meat on the threaded part ??

Totally agree with this - I regreased my AZ4 and it did make a massive difference (especially with the Mak). But still had issues with the ST102 - like you say spaceboy more down to balance. You can find a sweet spot, but it does take some playing and adjusting. The AZ5 is a bit less sensitive to incorrect balance (well, in my opinion anyway).

I think FLO did mention that they'd head that there was a "heavy duty" version of the AZ5. I think the AZ5 user manual may mention it as well....although I don't have it to hand, and wouldn't stand up in court to say that....

I have both the AZ5 (with tripod) and the AZ4 (steel tripod). I love the AZ4 for stability, although when I moved to the 127 Mak, I found the stiction a bit of an issue at higher mags (just took some of the enjoyment out of it for me). 

I got the AZ5 and love the head, but hate the tripod - it really isn't that great, especially when extended. I did an experiment with damping times using the AZ5 with various tripod setups. Using the standard tripod, fully extended, damping time was something ridiculous like 7-8 seconds. With the legs collapsed it's something like 3 seconds to dampen down from a tap/knock/refocus. However....stick the AZ5 head on the 1.75" steel tripod and vibrations start to vanish within 1 or 2 seconds, with both my ST102 and Mak 127. I don't think the AZ5 would have any issues carrying an ST120.

The movement of the AZ5 head is very smooth and is less prone to balancing and stiction issues than the AZ4. I find that my ST102 on the AZ4 can be annoying to use sometimes - the short tube doesn't get a decent balance point (without modifying the dovetail or adding weight to the front end): this means that the alt clutch has to be done quite tight to stop slippage....and then I find stiction is more of an issue. Takes some time to find the sweet spot. I don't feel I have either of these issues with the AZ5.

The AZ5 with the steel 1.75" legs is a perfect combo for me - still light enough to move around fairly easily, quick to setup, solid and smooth movement. I'm really not a fan of the standard tripod that came with the AZ5 - I do still have it and it does get used sometimes when I'm wanting something light to carry for a short distance, however the legs never get extended and I have to sit on the ground or use a tiny stool. My AZ3 has sat in a corner, gathering dust since I got the AZ5....along with the standard AZ5 tripod. I've now picked up a set of aluminium legs for the AZ4, purely so I can have the ST102 and Mak 127 setup side by side. But if just using one scope....the AZ5 and steel legs are my first choice. 

In my personal opinion (with limited experience with other equiment/brands) the problem with the AZ5 is purely the choice of tripod that Skywatcher have chosen to pair it with. The mount head is very capable (expecially for shorter scopes) but the tripod really lets it down. If you're prepared to use either the 1.75" steel tripod, or even the aluminium one that comes with an AZ4/EQ3-2 then I would think you'll have a much better experience with the AZ5. 

If I could go back....I would just buy the AZ5 head and pick my own tripod....save myself some money. 

Good luck! 

I must admit, for low power scanning... I prefer the AZ4. Purely because it has a handle for moving the scope. The AZ5 does have a nice smooth movement and less stiction than the AZ4. But stiction isn't a massive issue for low power. 

Having said that, the ST102 on the AZ5 isn't so bad. But as the mak is short, you end up having to steer using the ota when not using the slow motion controls. 

Scanning at low power, I use AZ4 (which I sold and the bought again). For high power and manual tracking, I use AZ5. 

2 minutes ago, Alfian said:

That set up looks very nice Davy'.

Thanks Ian. I absolutely love the mak - and the st102 is still different enough that I use both scope for different things. Well.... when the weather allows me to have fun of course :-p

Hi Jules,

I bought an AZ5 and use it with my mak 127 and my st102. I ended up using the AZ4 steel tripod...because the one that comes with the AZ5 isn't great. 

Personally I think it's great for the mak 127, slow motion really makes a difference with narrow fov and high magnification. 

Movement is really smooth with the mak on it, quite easy to get a good balance.

I find the pillar and head pretty sturdy. On the normal tripod that comes with the AZ5, damping is very slow and vibrations are terrible - with legs fully extended I measured 6-7 seconds to damp vibrations from a knock. With the legs collapsed then it's in the 3-4 second range.

Changed the tripod to a 1.75" steel leg (still with pillar and AZ5 head) and the same level of knock now dampens down in less than 1 second. 

I did find that the legs on my AZ5 tripod were a bit lose (after my knock experiment) so I'm going to tighten it all up and try again. 

@Mark at Beaufort i think I have the same celestron tripod that I got with my astromaster. The skywatcher one seems to be a similar build, so hopefully with a bit of tinkering, I can get vibrations down to 2 seconds. 

After reading your review John, I invested in a 15mm SLV to use in my ST102 and 127 mak. Wow, what a lovely eyepiece! In The ST it's great on DSOs - dumbbell and ring nebula were better than expected from my light polluted site in Edinburgh. I don't know if if just a nice balance of magnification and exit pupil. The only thing I would change...is a little more fov, because I quite like 60°. But over all I'm impressed and would buy others on the future. 

Just wanted to say thanks for your review  hope you had a good holiday!

13 minutes ago, Paanur said:

You have been very helpful with a very detailed review on az5.I think i am going for the az5 head instead of the az4 primarily because of the slow motion controls and the its lightweight pillar..I am going to use it with an sw ed80 and sw 130 pds.They both weigh around 4-5 kg with their accessories. 

Glad you found it useful. Out of interest what tripod are you planning on mounting it on? I would imagine the AZ5 would be fine for both those scopes. I think I'm probably at about 4kg with the mak and it's accessories.

I actually tried the AZ5 tripod again, this time without the pillar and a with the legs not extended. I got on a lot better with it second time round. Think I may have been a bit harsh on it after only a short play with it. It's a lot more stable without the pillar and would make an acceptable lightweight travel tripod for me. I'll keep the pillar on the AZ4 tripod and swap the head between them. 

12 minutes ago, Alfian said:

Thats a nice write up Davy and I think you have found the "complimentary" setup that you were looking for - and in such a portable package too. Glad the 127Mak has worked out for you.

Thanks Ian. I feel it's the perfect setup for me and works well with both my scopes. I understand it won't be for everyone, but I think I'm really going to enjoy observing with it 

Also as a side note - thanks for your help and advice regarding the mak. Really pleased with it. Just wish I'd realised that the planets aren't well positioned for the next wee while before I got it... rookie mistake! Guess it'll be used for the moon and doubles then! Might build a solar filter for it as well. 

8 hours ago, Paanur said:

How does it fare compared to the az4 after some time you have it?Any updates on it?

Last night was actually the first time I've managed to get out to view stars - I've really just been playing with it during the day up until now. It was cloudy buy I managed to get out for about an hour. 

Really impressed with the setup - both with mak 127 and ST102. It's an absolute delight to use! I decided to try using it without the slow motion controls by completely loosening the clutch screws and just manually moving around. This was great for just scanning about for widefield views (which was what I liked about the AZ4). Both axis were smooth and easy to move - the alt is slightly more difficult to make small manual adjustments on (especially with the mak) because there isn't a handle to use to you have to manhandle the OTA. It's easier with the short frac. However after a while I found it really easy to move around manually, lock the clutch screw and make small adjustments with the slow motion controls. I found that the head didn't slip or droop when the alt clutch was disengaged completely - I was able to move the scope and then let go and it would stay. The AZ4 tends to droop if the clutch is too loose, especially on my ST102 which is back end heavy and can't be balanced well. The AZ5 has enough stiction to hold it in place, but it's not difficult to overcome when you want to move.

I've been trying to split the double double in Lyra, so spent a bit of time last using slow motion and waiting for clouds to thin out for a clear view. Maybe spent 15 minutes using slow motion controls here and the double double never popped out of my view once (various mags from 100 - 200x). With the AZ4 I know for a fact I would have overshot it quite a few times when nudging. I also tried to track manually without the slow motion by nudging the AZ5 - it can be done and is probably on par with a well balanced AZ4 (maybe slightly smoother and less stiction in alt) but I personally found myself switching back to slow motion very quickly as its just so easy and enjoyable. Vibrations when adjusting slow motion is actually quite minimal when using the AZ4 tripod. Small vibration that dampens down in a second or less. Adjusting the focus causes slightly more vibration.

For those interested, I managed to get it split in both the mak and the ST at just over 150x so YAY! It's silly, I could see the stars were elongated but couldn't see the gap, then all of a sudden it's almost like my vision just snapped into it and a could clearly make out the separation. Castor has been my only other double, so I was really pleased that I finally managed to see the double double.  

Spent some time on the moon with the mak at 200x and even 300x (view wasn't steady, but I wasn't looking for awesome views, this was a tracking experiment). I was able to track craters easily with both, however at 300x the vibration was more noticeable and a wider tfov eyepiece would be good here so that after you adjust the slow motion, you have more time to enjoy the view before adjusting again (if you're using the "nudge to edge and let it drift over your fov" approach).

In summary - the setup I've got now provides me the benefits of the AZ4 in terms of stability and freedom to move. But with the addition of slow motion when you need it, which is something I felt was missing from the AZ4. For my short OTAs it's perfect and a joy to use, I have no idea how it would cope with longer tubes though. I'm certainly not knocking the AZ4 head, I still think it's a really good piece of kit. But will I constantly be swapping the AZ4 and AZ5 heads on and off the same tripod.... probably not, I'll probably just use the AZ5 with the clutch screws disengaged when I want to scan around.

Just a wee update (hope people aren't getting fed up)!

Finally got round to getting some longer 3/8th bolts....which weren't fully threaded - turns out that the non threaded bit is too big to go through the hole in the AZ4 tripod. So I had to order a fully threaded one instead. 

Just for info, I used a 3/8 UNC 2 1/2" fully threaded bolt. I think it might actually be referred to as a screw rather than a bolt.

I've fitted the extension pillar and the AZ5 head to my AZ4 tripod properly now. It's really stable and I'm really pleased with it. It's a nice height for me to use without extending the tripod legs.

Personally I can't see any noticeable difference in stability between having and not having the pillar fitted. This is how I think I'm going to use it. Quite a nice set up if I do say so myself 

Now I just need a decent night to try it out!

EDIT: Here's the ST102 on Franken-mount:

5 minutes ago, Paanur said:

Nice setup with the steel tripod..Can

 you describe how it behaves when not using the slow motion controls?Is it as smooth as an AZ4 is supposed to be?

I am between this and an az4 on this tripod or on a star discovery tripod(1.5" steel tripod)mounting an ED80 on it.Any additional feedback would be very helpful..

I find it quite easy to move around without the slow motion. When I undo the clutch screws, my telescope stays in place and it's very easy and smooth to push around. Altitude is more awkward (with a short scope) than the AZ4 as I use the handle on that, and there's not one on the AZ5. But stiction is definitely less of an issue with the AZ5.  

Much, much better 

Can now observe at 150 - 200x without annoying vibrations. 

Just waiting on a longer 3/8 bolt arriving, as the one I have is a bit short and only holding head on with 1 or 2 turns of the thread. 

Going to try the 1.75" steel tripod with AZ5 and extension...from holding it together, seems like a nice position for standing observing.

Problem solved, Mike I copied you and just cut the peg off.

Everything feels rock solid now. Will report back with an update once I've had the chance to try it. Unfortunately is pouring down outside and isn't meant to clear up much this weekend. 

Sorry everyone, it's my fault for getting new toys.

18 minutes ago, FLO said:

There is another tripod available for the new AZ5 mount, it isn't currently imported but we could request it. It is the same as the EQ5/HEQ5 tripod but with a different top casting (no AZ pin) and a 3/8" centre bolt instead of metric. The pricing would the same as the EQ5/HEQ5 tripod, so about £105/£110. There isn't an extension tube available for it though. 

Would there be much of a demand? 

Steve 

Hi Steve, 

Thanks for the info. Personally I'm just going to modify my AZ4 tripod. However I imagine there would be quite a few people that may be more interested in the heavy duty tripod. 

Looking at the instruction manual that came with the AZ5, it looks like the heavy duty one is very like the AZ4 steel version. But, like you say, with a 3/8 fixing and no north peg. 

Thanks again,

Davy 

21 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

Assuming you can get around the north peg issue could you get someone to machine for you a new central rod with M10 at the bottom and 3/8 at the top, with the waisted bit in the middle - gauge length off the current one . You'd then just need to screw it in from the top of the tripod, add your handwheels and maybe a couple of 'stop nuts) and you're in business.

You should see all the weird an wonderful ways I've tried to solve the problem  been looking at pillar drills on eBay and everything. I bet I could turn this into the most expensive adaptor on the planet!

Like the rod idea.... hadn't thought about that.

9 minutes ago, John said:

Nice report

I had a play with an AZ5 at an astro show recently. The mount head seemed nice but the tripod......

Seems a shame to have to lash out £60 to use the head on a standard EQ5 / HEQ5 / CG5 tripod to gain stability. There must be a lower cost way to adapt it / the tripod hub

 

I'm quite disappointed in the tripod to be honest, feel it lets the AZ5 down a bit. Suppose it's just to keep costs down, but I'd advise anyone else to just buy the head and fit it to a different tripod. 

I could cut the alignment peg off my AZ4 and then just use a 3/8 bolt like Mike did. But I'm reluctant to chop the peg off my tripod in case I want to sell it in the future. I did look into buying some aluminium round billet from eBay....

Also thought about tapping the hole in the pillar to an M10. But I don't know how well 3/8 unc taps to M10. Maybe someone more mechanically mindedcan advise. I have the tools to do it.... just don't want to destroy my new extension pillar.

AZ5 arrived today, and my new mak 127 arrived a few days ago as well.... it's like Christmas! 

First impression, the actual head feels really nice. It's really smooth and handles the mak127 and the ST102 really well. For comparison I put them both on my AZ3, and on that you could really feel the altitude slow motion becoming tight as the angle increased. The AZ5 had no issues at all, was smooth and relaxed all the way to the zenith. The azimuth has a tiny bit of play in it - when I change direction there is a period where turning doesn't do anything and then you feel it connect. Have tried adjusting the little grub screw but that didn't seem to make a difference to the amount of play. After playing with it for a while, it's hardly noticeable anymore. 

As for the tripod and extension pillar.... not convinced. The tripod isn't very sturdy at all - at around 166x the image was VERY wobbly with just a tiny amount of wind. Just could not get it to settle down. Moved the mak onto the AZ4..... rock solid, no wobbles. Everything on the head feels tight, so I'm assuming this is all down the the tripod and potentially the extension. Also, I almost lost my telescope twice because I wasn't undoing the azimuth clutch pin/screw and the head actually started to unscrew from the extension! You've really got to make sure that the top part of the extension is screwed into the head tightly, or remember to loosen the clutch screw.

Unfortunately I can't attach the AZ5 head to my AZ4 tripod at the moment as I never bought the adaptor plate. In hindsight I probably would have been better spending the extra £60 on the adaptor instead of the tripod and extension. 

AZ5 ordered last night!

Decided to go for the complete package with the head, pillar and tripod. Figured I could always re-purpose the tripod for binoculars if it's stability is an issue for me. 

Going to be using it with an ST102 and Mak127 - I will report back with findings once it arrives and I have a wee shot 

Good job Mike! Fingers crossed that it's sorted now and you don't have to carry on living with the haunted mansion 

8 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

Hi Dave.

The instructions clearly state that the locking screw should be used as a clutch, allowing both free push pull movement and manual driving to be used simultaneously, without the need to unlock the axes.

I've tried to attach a short video of the mount in motion, so i hope it works. What I'm hoping is that there will be a simple cure for the problem as I really like the mount.

20170811_120806.mp4

Video worked fine 

You weren't joking about the haunted house! That is a lot louder (and more annoying) than I had anticipated.

Definitely sounds "dry" - as soon as you mentioned that in the video, it reminded me of one of the doors on my old car. WD40 and then some lithium grease  ...maybe not a solution for your mount though.

It's good the instructions say that - means you can't be told it's your fault if you decide to return it!

What a shame Mike, must be gutting 

Really struggling to find other reviews as well...would have been good to see if anyone else had seen something similar. Seems like the is the only thread...quite quiet on the AZ5 front....

2 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

Hi Dave,

When using the slow motion controls the mount is silent, but when gently pushing the head to aim or sweep with the scope, it squeals like the door of a haunted house. It did not do this initially! Releasing the locking screws frees the scope to move in any direction, but it has to be correctly balanced or the tube will drop if not held. With the AZ4 it is possible to clutch both axes so the head moved freely while still holding position. I would have expected the AZ5 to work similarly.

You could dress up as a ghost while you're observing at night and scare the neighbours! 

Could be that whatever the screw pushes against inside the mount originally had paint/coating on it. With moving it around with the screw under tension, it's maybe worn away whatever coating was stopping it from making a noise before.

I'd be surprised if you were expected to loosen the screw every time you wanted to move it "manually" - more so on the alt axis though. Suppose it might not be as much of an issue having to do it on the az.

Silly question....but does the instruction manual contain any info on how they expect the screws to be used?  

Seems like a pain to have to return it....but might be best and then try another one. 

9 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

Hi Steve,

The squealing results from the locking screw being engaged enough to allow both worms to drive while also allowing the mount to be pushed in both axes. I really like this mount and haven't yet informed the vendor. I'm hoping I can somehow resolve the noise problem. Having to release and 're lock the locking screws in both axes to allow free movement isn't something I really want to do each time I need to move the mount. May be I'm expecting too much!

Hi Mike, 

Just out of interest, does the squealing occur when using both the slow motion and trying to move manually? Or just when trying to move manually? I assume if the screws are too lose then the slow motion doesn't engage? 

Trying to build up a little mental picture of what may be happening inside - I assume at the moment that the screw is dragging against something on the inside of the mount. Curious as to whether removing the screw and dipping the tip into a little bit of grease might help put a little bit of lubrication against the screw and whatever it is rubbing against. 

Don't know whether this is a good/bad idea...just a thought. 

EDIT: Maybe wrong/confusing terminology - by "manually" I mean move by hand without the slow motion controls (i.e. larger movements).