DhamR

I was into photography before this, so I was aware of CA as it was always an issue mentioned with lenses, particularly older ones.  Technically you're losing sharpness around the edges as they blur out across the spectrum.  Not having used a refractor since my toy one as a kid, I don't know how big a problem it is, but I used a cheap pair of binoculars whilst I was deciding what to buy and it did bother me.  Ultimately it was the idea of the big light-catching area of the scope that drew me to a dobsonian.  It's not a planetary scope, but there's a lot more stuff to see up there than the planets, and I figured the only reason people want to look at the planets is because they know them.  If my daughter and I can get to know the rest of the sky, then seeing that is just as big a draw as seeing something vaguely similar to the familiar planet shapes we know.

Honestly I think I've overspent for my needs right now with the 150p (particularly the motorised mount) however I got a bonus at work and spoilt myself.

The 150P catches 33% more light from its 2cm wider aperture, so will see the dimmer stuff better, but it's also bigger and more expensive.  You can apply that rule to every dob out there ad-infinitum, as someone else said, at some point you have to draw the line between cost-reward & need.

17 minutes ago, Saggy said:

I'm still a little undecided to be honest but feeling definitely one of the two and can order tonight so a bit relieved compared to yesterday so thanks to you all. I can see in the video it will sit on the seat 🙂

THe heritage seems small enough - is the ST80 smaller when packed up? It's just the shops were saying the ST80 would be better on planets and things but it could have been that I had already mentioned not wanting to collimate so would have steered me in that direction anyway.

Can anyone tell me what precisely would be the kind of difference we're looking at between the two in viewing both the moon and planets and then the more deeper space objects. I'm assuming that the heritage dobs can see a little further afield/deeper than the ST80 but what about clarity of images etc?

I could just go by which would be easier to wrap - which would be the dobs 😄

I'm assuming both can be upgraded to some extent but yes that can be left to later - much later lol!!!

 

The ST80 and its tripod would collapse to a long thin thing.  Whereas the Heritages are a little cubiod, they take up more floor space (when the ST80s tripod isn't open) but will tuck away in their box rather than stand up like an umbrella.

When I was looking at them, the main differences that made my mind up are:

1) Dobs capture more light so see dimmer things

2) Refractors (like the ST80) are made using lenses which bend light like a prism does, so you see purple fringes and green fringes on high-contrast things (i.e. bright moon vs dark sky behing). Dobs don't do this, as mirrors don't work like prisms.

It depends.  Unlike the stars, which only "move" relative to us because we rotate too (simplified, because we also tilt as per the seasons, and travel around the sun), the planets have their own orbits to be getting on with.  As such it changes year-by-year month-by-month where and when each appears in the sky.  At the moment we have Venus Saturn and Jupiter all visible shortly after sunset, but they disappear soon after i.e. before my daughter goes to bed. 

There's tonnes of night sky apps out there, they'll tell you what's in the sky now, and most have a "fast forward or rewind" time option so you can see how things move.

Wondered if the view of a fellow beginner who ended up buying a heritage 150P might help.

I have a 4 yo little monster who wanted a telescope, and I've always wanted one, so was buying a present for us.  My start off budget was similar to where you ended up (I ended up spending more on a computerised mount, but this was extravagance that I didn't need to do).  You're considering the 130P and I bought the 150P (almost identical, just slightly bigger), so thought my views on it might be worthwhile?

Collimation wasn't out by much when I received it, and if you can repair white goods at home, I'd say you can manage the process of collimating the primary in 5/10mins once you've worked out that down is up and left is right.  The main thing you'd need to do I expect is point it at a bright wall, put the collimation "eyepiece in" and adjust three screws (by hand, you don't even need a screwdriver) until things are centred nicely when you look through it.  That should be it, that's all I've had to do, and I've had to do it twice (possibly because I stored the scope on its end on a firm surface after doing it the first time).  I'm sure more expert observers might be more fussy about getting it perfect, but don't think it's going to stop you seeing things if it's not bang on.  Particularly beginner targets like the moon.

I live in what is apparently a Bortle 6 area (i.e. quite light polluted, not far from Birmingham and Dudley).  I've only been out with it 4 or 5 times and I've been blown away by views of the moon (didn't need a moon filter, although it is quite bright so you do lose your night-vision a bit after looking at it, people on here have suggested sunglasses work as an alternative to a moon filter), I've also found the Pleiades (star cluster that fills the eyepiece with bright stars despite everything around it being fairly "empty") and Orion nebula (a greeny grey blurry cloud of distinctive shape, but it's much more than that if you read up on it, and quite stunning to see when all around it are just points of light).  But ultimately I'm learning to navigate the sky and find the things I'm meant to be looking at.

Because it's a Christmas present (I'm "just checking it over in case we need to send it back") I haven't been out early enough to see any planets yet, and I know this isn't these scopes' strong points, but I'm expecting to be able to see a little bit of detail in Jupiter and Saturn, including some rings/bands, but from what I've read and been advised on here, expectations higher than that might be unrealistic, especially when they're low in the sky.

I've put it on a table every time I've used it, which is fine, but you do have to lean over it on occasion to look down the eyepiece, and I think I actually had a better experience with it and me sat on the floor on a yoga mat.  I've had no issues with it needing to cooldown either, again, maybe when I'm more experienced this will matter more, but I really wouldn't worry about that as a factor when buying.

People talk about eyepiece quality etc., but I've had no issue with the two that come packaged with the scope, the wider angle is easier to use, but the 10mm needs lifting and locking out of the focuser to get it to focus.  This is easy to do though, and I don't see me spending money on an upgrade for a good few months, particularly as clear skies are limited at the moment.

At least I wasn't wrong!

Ahh I thought I saw that name associated with a phone mount that sat on some entry level celestron refractors and used the phone camera to help guide your movement. Might be something else.

Yeah I read the lengthy app thread and now have 6 or 7 installed on my phone (although not all offer integration with Synscan - and I've tried none of them).

I'm being particularly fussy about alignment because I don't yet know what I expect to see when I'm looking for things.  Once I find my way and get a bit better with names it won't matter so much.

Was pleased I managed to find the Orion Nebula myself though (I know it's only a short hop downwards from the central star in the belt - it felt like an achievement).

Can Starsense be used on a Virtuoso GTi do you know?

Thanks for excellent description, that makes sense.

I guess in that case the up and the right final movement should be complete, i.e. passed any backlash, rather than just a tap of the button at a low speed.

I'm using the synscan pro app at the moment, and am playing with the free versions of the other apps to see if there's one I particularly want to splash some google bucks on.

How does that work if it chooses to turn left to find the first target? Does it know the amount of backlash and account for it? 

You're right about the focuser, it's actually loose, but because the thread is fairly poorly machined, turning it to focus is rough which is why I said it felt tight, because it's actually loose. Because of the slop, you think you're in focus and then let go of the focuser only for it to come to rest in a new position. 

Have just had it out for the third time, I've got the focus bang on for the 24mm EP now, and ptfe tape holds it sturdy, then when I use the 10mm I have to secure it partially removed from the focuser to get an image at all (I assume this is normal?), I have just been using that motion to focus, rather than the helical focuser, and then I lock it down when happy. Makes switching back to the 24mm much easier than unscrewing the thread all the way... 

Also I definitely need to close my right eye to see anything, possibly due to local light etc, I think an eye patch might be a good idea. 

I've had some further issues with the mount, but it turns out they were fairly simply resolved:

* the clutches HAVE to be fully locked down for powered movement to work properly. This was messing up my alignment. 

* alignment requires you to finish on an up and a right movement for some reason, this baffled me for ages with the select/confirm button being greyed out otherwise with no error. This is just poor UI design tbh. 

Last time out observing I bounced between the moon and the Pleiades, there was also a cool orange and blue double I stumbled upon almost at the zenith. 

Tonight I had some great views of the terminator of the moon, albeit with some cloud dancing in front. And I got my first view of the orion nebula. This was brief and not particularly detailed, but this is the first time it's been within reach and I'm very happy to have seen it.

I had to collimate again on both outings, I suspect putting the scope back with its bum resting on the foam it arrived on is the issue here, so I've left it supported by the dovetail tonight.

I might need some storage advice from elsewhere on the forum too, it's having to stay out of sight at the moment so the little one doesn't see it, but when she can, I'm wondering whether it's OK staying in the garage or should come indoors. 

Pros: fairly secure, closer to outside temp (garage is detached), not going to get knocked as it might in the house 

Cons: garage door is noisy at night, I might need to be careful about damp. 

Long story short, the first one was damaged.  The mount had a crack in the wooden mount through where the alt axis is.  Wasn't sure if it was just the paint/veneer or through to wood but FLO were great and swapped it out.

Replacement has arrived, and I got a quick go with it yesterday evening until, very quickly, my view fogged up.  I thought this was dew, or my breath on the secondary.  But nope, nothing.  Then I looked up... clouds...

Notes:

- Collimation is surprisingly easy. Instructions were reasonably clear, but once I understood what I was trying to do it was quite straightforward getting the primary lined up.

- Speaking of instructions: the line telling you to align the telescope with North when you switch it on is not made clear enough in the instructions... I spent ages wondering why 1-star alignment was sending the scope off miles away from Jupiter: now I know.

- Being something of a photographer, I thought I'd find focusing quite easy, but it's not.

- The focuser really is both stiff and sloppy.  PTFE tape is on its way down from the river.

- I think I need an eyepatch to stop my non-dominant right eye from getting tired from squinting (yes, being left eye dominant as a photographer is a nightmare)

It's arrived and tomorrow looks good.

Just got to convince my wife that it doesn't need to sit under the tree now.

Does snow normally precede telescope delivery? 

It's started clouding over at night and peeing it down with rain so I thought now would be a good time to order it without the jinx affecting everyone else's skies!

Now I'm excited.

Thanks everyone, the Virtuoso GTI version of the Heritage 150 is an extra £130 over the standard 150P.

To confirm, if I wanted to add tracking/GoTo later I'd be looking at a lot more wouldn't I?

I can see the the AZ GTi mount for example is £245 before you even consider a tripod to fix it to.  And I'd guess (as a relative layperson) that they're going to have very similar functionality, components etc.

Right, so, in the interest of honesty/coming to terms with it myself, I'd be buying the 150P for myself, and I think I may need to make sure I factor my daughter, or more, the practicalities of showing her the skies, into the decision a bit more.

I bought Turn Left at Orion last week and have since read it (bar some of the more specific "what to look at" pages) cover to cover.  I think whilst I will love the thrill of the hunt, I think the little lady might get a bit bored waiting around while Daddy hunts the sky for something, especially something that, to her, may not be immediately impressive.  I could leave her indoors while I do the treasure hunting, then call her out when there's something cool to see, but then I'm worrying that things could move out of view.  Considering this is a gift for both of us, and I've had a cheeky bonus from work, I'm probably able to spend a little bit more, provided it ticks more boxes.

On that note I'm wondering

1. do I get HER something cheaper she can use terrestrially too, as that means more opportunities for her to be playing with her new scope, but with the acknowledgment that if she gets into it, she won't get much longevity out of stargazing through it (and that my itch may not be scratched)
2. do I spend a bit more, and buy US the 150P Virtuoso, knowing it'll help both of us get the most out of a decent scope or
3. do I get the standard 150P, see how it goes, and consider buying a proper motorised mount at a later date if I feel that's limiting?

I don't like option 1 if I'm honest, and whilst she'd love it initially, I think it's a road to frustration.

One question I can't get much info on is whether the Virtuoso GTI will track objects at all.   I can't seem to find whether the terminology for "tracking" is what I think it is.  I.e. if it (or we) find something, can I hit a button and it try to track it?   This seems like it would be worth its weight in gold when "darkness-before-bedtime" is at a premium and she wants to see something.

I think I know the answer here and that it's the one that hurts the wallet more...

Equinox would be a pretty big car by UK standards!

As I intimated in my thread, whatever space you have in a UK car WILL be filled on a camping trip. Even my mate who drives a Ford Ranger uses a roof box too and complains about lack of space. 

700g is nothing right?!

Looks like I'm getting the 150P!

How about the last part? I assume the Virtuoso/GTI is purchasable later? 

Does anyone have or know where I might find a comparison of the packed down size of the 130P and 150P heritages as I think this will be what decides between the two.

I can't even seem to find dimensions anywhere.  The Skywatcher website has the shipping dimensions of the 130, but doesn't list the 150 in its models (although it does list the Virtuoso model).

On that, is the Virtuoso (or similar motorised mount) something that can be bought later?  Or is it more cost effective to buy with the scope?

17 hours ago, Tiny Clanger said:

Now might be a good moment to point you to this excellent post :

 

 

 

The Hubble Voyager shot of Jupiter should absolutely NOT be the first image in the thread (and therefore thumbnail) 🤣

Very good thread though, and matches what I'm hoping to see. 

Completely get that, just seemed like the opposite of what the scope is meant for. When I was looking at the st80 I was expecting to forego the planets for the clusters, but that's what he's saying had blown people away (unless I've misunderstood). 

I think the bigness & brightness comment re the 130P might have won me over. I also quite like its simplicity. And thread shared by @Tiny Clanger is really a treasure trove of info. 

@SuburbanMak thanks for swinging me back to the original tree!

To confirm you've seen all of those objects through the ST80? I thought the planets were a bit much for it and it's fondness for the violet. 

(I was planning on giving my 60D a go on the ST80 but it wasn't a serious consideration on the that scope over any other). 

11 minutes ago, Orange Smartie said:

I have a Heritage 150p - one size up from the 130 you are considering.  In a dark place, on a good night, I've been able to see a lot of stuff so it's a pretty decent instrument for the money.  Regarding bashing it around, it has exposed optical surfaces that won't perform so well if sticky fingers get on them..... or if anything is dropped into the scope.  You can make a lightshield (plenty of threads on this), which will give you an element of protection.  It's fairly stable in terms of the collimation, and depending on what you're looking at, I wouldn't get too fixated on whether the collimation is perfect.  You can learn how to adjust the primary mirror in a few minutes and it won't be a major problem to set up if it does get a bit out of kilter.  The small scope you mention in the post above, although more techy, will give you narrower fields of view and involve more setup (I would imagine).  At least with the heritage dob or the short tube refractor, it's a point and look type affair.

Oh yeah once setup I'm not too worried about it, I was more worried about it when packed down during travel but it sounds solid enough. 

6 minutes ago, mr_belowski said:

A tracking mount makes a Mak a bit more kid-friendly. I went down the same path (buying a starter 'scope for my daughter which was actually for me). I picked up a Skywatcher 90 Mak on a Virtuoso mount for £200. Once you figure out how the mount works it does an acceptable job of keeping objects in view even at high(ish) magnifications. As long as the 'scope doesn't get knocked or grabbed I can leave it tracking Saturn or Jupiter while people take turns to go "ooo" and it stays in view for a few minutes (or more depending on how level the mount is).

These are decent quality little scopes that give good planetary and lunar views, pack up into a managable small box and feel quite solidly built

Now this comes up, in budget, and whilst it's pushing the budget harder, instinct says it's a bit more futureproofed?

That 130P does look pretty cool, not quite as transportable, but not far off.  How stable are the actual optics?  If it gets bashed around a little in the car is it likely to need adjusting when I get where I'm going?

With it being brighter and capable of greater magnification, how realistic am I being thinking about sticking a camera on it? The internet says conflicting things given the structure being "flexible".  I just had that pretty much ruled out on the ST80s, but this sounds a bit more do-able other than the fear of putting force on parts that aren't designed for it.

16 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

Welcome 🙂

I can tell from your post that you've done some sensible research already , and have reasonable expectations and a sense of humour, so I'll reply 'no, not yet ...' to the thread title  and chip in.

That small, sticky fingered little person you are using as an excuse , sorry , I mean getting the 'scope partly for 🙂  is going to need a fast set up, easy to look through, not too delicate or easily knocked over sort of 'scope. It needs to not have a narrow field of view/ big magnification (like a mak ) because by the time you set that up with something like a planet in view, and move aside so the small person can get to the eyepiece, the target will have moved , probably out of view , similarly the slightest touch by the small person on the eyepiece or focus tube will move the 'scope , so the target is lost. That way lies frustration and tantrums, not to mention how the 4 year old will react ...

Wide field, sturdy, under £200 , easy to set up and small enough to stick in the car for dark sky trips ... 130 heritage.  Leaves you some budget for an eyepiece or two , which you will want, skywatcher 'scopes come with two eyepieces, the 26mm is OK, the 10mm is meh, and needs replacing ... some other manufacturers  just include one slightly better eyepiece (Bressers get an acceptable  20mm plossl).  If you are happy to go to £300 (including one eyepiece upgrade) , the 150 heritage is bigger, therefore collects more light, but might not be as packable , depends on your car and the volume of child related stuff you have to pack ...

I own an ST80, I bought it second hand , it is used with a lightweight but good quality travel tripod , where I'd describe it as rather wobbly, and best at very low magnifications, much like using binoculars (except only one eye , obv.s,  and somewhat steadier than hand held binos. ) The plus points for the  ST80 over the heritage 130 are its compact size and that it looks like most people's  idea of a telescope. 

Heather

PS, you visited the Space centre ! Not far from me,  hope you went to the free museum of technology next door too, lovely beam engine , and at the age your little one now is, my niece was obsessed with the see through cut away toilet, complete with flushable orange plastic cylinders you could watch go down the pan when you pulled the chain.,  then run to the end of the plastic tube 'sewage pipe' retrieve and repeat ... wonder if that exhibit is  still  there nearly 20 years on .

Thanks Heather, pleased to hear the SoH doesn't need an excessive magnification to detect.  The Space Centre was great but I had no idea about the Technology museum, we've got free return visits for a year so we may have to plan that in next time.

As for how much we "have" to pack, the answer is "nowhere near as much as we end up packing", I think the 150P might be a bit big and end up getting left behind.