Budget EQ mount for 6" SCT?

[radiofm74]

I'll just add to what Grumpius posted that AsiAir only works with their cameras and with a good number of DSLRs listed on their site. I agree that there are limitations, including this one, but in an hobby that's already as complicated as astro-imaging, plug'n'play is a nice thing. I've wasted enough hours of exposure to badly made polar alignment apps, and spent enough hours drift aligning my rigs for absolute precision, to appreciate the use of a well-made polar alignment app 😁

Besides, and to another question that Martyn asked: I also do "non GoTo" astrophotography with my super-light and much-loved Vixen Advanced Polaris mount, but then you do it all by hand: polar alignment, finding your object, framing and – on multi-night projects – trying to frame the exact same way… you miss plate-solving and all that it brings; it's doable, but another level of difficulty, especially if you have a small chip, and especially if you go for objects that are not easy to locate in the sky. From your garden, and with a C6, I'd say that GoTo is another sine qua non. 

Clear skies!

[Martyn87]

Thanks Radiofm74, unfortunately my DSLR isn't on the supported list, so that's no help unfortunately. 

I can definitely see why easy polar alignment would make the Air so popular, especially when I needs to be so accurate for AP. Is ASIs procedure really that much better than the other software based equivalents? Knowing that I'll be moving my scope in and out of the house regularly makes me not want to spend hours aligning every time we have clear skies! 

Also I think I agree with you on GoTo, especially with DSOs that are already pretty tough to see in the night skies from dark areas. I'm in around Bortle 4/5 according to the light pollution maps I've checked, so they're going to be almost impossible to find without it I imagine, especially with the high focal length. 

[Elp]

I've used PHD2 on astroberry, it's overly complicated for what you need to do, ioptron ipolar is easier, and asiair is by far the simplest, and it's quick to do. I used to be able to PA within 3 minutes but they changed the sensitivity after v2.0 of the app, so it takes around 5-8 minutes now.

If you haven't got any astro cameras or automation already the air is a viable route as on the used market you'll also have a plethora of cameras available to buy due to the popularity of the brand. The experience with the air can change due to their updates being hit and miss at times, but for complete ease of use it's hard to beat, I didn't even need to see a tutorial really to know how to use it as it also has a few prompts the first time you start the app, just a few bits to research to dial settings in.

Stellarmate will likely offer a similar experience but not tie you down to hardware vendors though I've never used it. It also has a mobile app for interfacing/control.

Edited June 12 by Elp

[Martyn87]

Thanks Elp. I've watched a couple of videos on the ASIAIR polar alignment and it does look very straightforward, although so does the alignment process in the HEQ5 Pro itself. Is there a benefit to using one over the other? 

[Elp]

3 minutes ago, Martyn87 said:

Thanks Elp. I've watched a couple of videos on the ASIAIR polar alignment and it does look very straightforward, although so does the alignment process in the HEQ5 Pro itself. Is there a benefit to using one over the other? 

Likely not. One maybe more accurate than the other, but if you want proper accuracy you should be drift aligning. I don't think you'd notice much difference and the guiding/tracking accuracy of your mount will have more bearing on the final result.

[Giles_B]

If you were looking for an alternative mount, that you could upgrade to a go-to, there is a non go-to EQ6 listed on Astro Buy and Sell, with a refractor included, for £400 (not being sold by me by the way!)

https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/propview.php?view=215511

Incidentally, whichever way you go, I'd recommend checking out Astro Buy and Sell - it tends to be cheaper than Ebay, the gear is more consistently good quality and the sellers tend to be friendly and helpful.

Edited June 12 by Giles_B
typos

[Martyn87]

On 11/06/2024 at 12:34, Cosmic Geoff said:

If you want to use the 6" SCT for taking images of small deep-space objects, I would suggest that the minimum mount is an EQ-5 Synscan. A HEQ5 might be better, more future-proofing, etc.  It is possible to upgrade the manual EQ-5 to GoTo either by buying the official Synscan upgrade (now about £350) or by assembling one of the DIY kits available.   Note that if you go the latter route, you don't get a handset and are relying on computer control. Unless you really like to tinker, IMHO the best use of your time and money would to buy a used Synscan mount in good order.

You will probably also need a f6.3 focal reducer (around £150 new) and if you want to shoot nebulae, a dual narrow-band filter (around £100 or more).

If you don't have a good mount then beware, you could spend a good deal of time and money pursuing images that you could have just as well produced with a £550 Seestar S50 which has the mount, the GoTo, the optics, the filter, and the stacking all built in.

 

@Cosmic Geoff Just looking at the dual narrowband filers you mentioned, I'm assuming this means H-alpha and OIII? 

[Martyn87]

6 minutes ago, Giles_B said:

If you were looking for an alternative mount, that you could upgrade to a go-to, there is a non go-to EQ6 listed on Astro Buy and Sell, with a refractor included, for £400 (not being sold by me by the way!)

https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/propview.php?view=215511

Incidentally, whichever way you go, I'd recommend checking out Astro Buy and Sell - it tends to be cheaper than Ebay, the gear is more consistently good quality and the sellers tend to be friendly and helpful.

Thanks Giles, wasn't aware of that site! Just having a browse through the listings now but most of them are so far away, I'd spend the same again in fuel to collect haha! 

[Giles_B]

52 minutes ago, Martyn87 said:

Thanks Giles, wasn't aware of that site! Just having a browse through the listings now but most of them are so far away, I'd spend the same again in fuel to collect haha! 

It's sometimes worth contacting the buyer to see if they are open to postage or couriers. Bog standard couriers like EVRI are fairly cheap (<£20) and will collect. More bespoke services for really big stuff is pricier, but often lots cheaper than driving to collect the item yourself - I got my bargain EQ6 that way using https://www.parcelhero.com/ for about £65 for the mount, the tripod and the counterweights.

[GrumpiusMaximus]

AstroBuySell is properly old school and is only a classifieds site.  I've never had a bad experience over there but there is no buyer protection as they are not brokering the deal.  It's a great resource but just make sure that you're careful.  Got a few bargains over there.

To go back to the ASIAir for just a moment, my Dad has one and can get Polar Alignment really quickly.  It's super-slick and easy.  He gets excellent results with it.

I have an Altair Hypercam183C which is a good camera which is why I've set up an Astroberry.  Ironically, my Dad (generously) gifted it to me as he went all-in on ASI after buying the ASIAir.

With a C6, you'll definitely want to use an automated Polar Alignment tool of some sort as it would be challenging for even an experienced astrophotographer to align adequately for any decent exposure rate given the focal length of a C6.

 

[Martyn87]

10 minutes ago, GrumpiusMaximus said:

AstroBuySell is properly old school and is only a classifieds site.  I've never had a bad experience over there but there is no buyer protection as they are not brokering the deal.  It's a great resource but just make sure that you're careful.  Got a few bargains over there.

To go back to the ASIAir for just a moment, my Dad has one and can get Polar Alignment really quickly.  It's super-slick and easy.  He gets excellent results with it.

I have an Altair Hypercam183C which is a good camera which is why I've set up an Astroberry.  Ironically, my Dad (generously) gifted it to me as he went all-in on ASI after buying the ASIAir.

With a C6, you'll definitely want to use an automated Polar Alignment tool of some sort as it would be challenging for even an experienced astrophotographer to align adequately for any decent exposure rate given the focal length of a C6.

 

I guess on the up-side, it's a bit less generalised than the likes of ebay, gumtree etc, so maybe a more enthusiastic bunch who know what they have? 

Altair seem to have some really nice cameras and pretty competitive prices, you lucked in there! On the subject of cameras, is there a way to calcualte a suitably sized camera for a particular scope? I've heard that the smaller SCTs can suffer from some vignetting with larger sensors? 

 

There are just too many decisions to make haha. I have ordered the F6.3 reducer so at least that's one thing sorted, and it'll still be nice to use visually while I'm sorting the rest of my kit. 

[GrumpiusMaximus]

39 minutes ago, Martyn87 said:

I guess on the up-side, it's a bit less generalised than the likes of ebay, gumtree etc, so maybe a more enthusiastic bunch who know what they have? 

Altair seem to have some really nice cameras and pretty competitive prices, you lucked in there! On the subject of cameras, is there a way to calcualte a suitably sized camera for a particular scope? I've heard that the smaller SCTs can suffer from some vignetting with larger sensors? 

 

There are just too many decisions to make haha. I have ordered the F6.3 reducer so at least that's one thing sorted, and it'll still be nice to use visually while I'm sorting the rest of my kit. 

There are a lot of decisions but in all honesty, the best thing to do is go out there and start playing around.  In theory, I know what to do.  In practice something dodgy always happens - and its a case of applying the theory to find the pitfalls in your own process.

Here's a handy website for various things:

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/ccd_suitability

[radiofm74]

7 hours ago, Martyn87 said:

Thanks Elp. I've watched a couple of videos on the ASIAIR polar alignment and it does look very straightforward, although so does the alignment process in the HEQ5 Pro itself. Is there a benefit to using one over the other? 

Just a quick word on this. For me, there was. Never been able to get good results with the HEQ5 process, so much so that I just rough polar aligned with the scope, then drift aligned. The AsiAir got me to a level of accuracy that, with guiding, required no additional steps. Similar on paper, very different on the field 😂

[Martyn87]

41 minutes ago, radiofm74 said:

Just a quick word on this. For me, there was. Never been able to get good results with the HEQ5 process, so much so that I just rough polar aligned with the scope, then drift aligned. The AsiAir got me to a level of accuracy that, with guiding, required no additional steps. Similar on paper, very different on the field 😂

Ah, maybe the demo I seen on YouTube was just lucky then haha. Asi air is tempting, especially as a mini would probably do the job. I'll keep an eye on ebay, more likely to pick one of those up than a stellarmate pro! 

[GrumpiusMaximus]

A good Polar Alignment is one of the most critical parts of astrophotography and also one of the trickiest.  I'm terrible at it and it's why I don't do it anywhere near as often as I would like to.  Whatever makes it quicker and easier is a win in my book.  You're better off spending a little money on a tool to help you than struggling with it, getting frustrated and giving up.  And with a C6, the issue compounds itself.

[Elp]

PA simplicity also has to do with the mount or alt az adjustment system. If you've ever tried PA an azgti on a Skywatcher EQ wedge, you'll know it's much different (frustrating) to using a WO wedge which is much different to using a medium class mount like a gem. Paired with the simple feedback system of the asiair PA routine and its even easier. PA was even easier when the app and associated firmware was running from version 1.9, I could get PA to below 10 arc seconds every time under 5 minutes or so, it's slightly more niggly now taking longer and I usually leave it at 50 arc seconds or so.

Edited June 12 by Elp

[Martyn87]

44 minutes ago, Elp said:

PA simplicity also has to do with the mount or alt az adjustment system. If you've ever tried PA an azgti on a Skywatcher EQ wedge, you'll know it's much different (frustrating) to using a WO wedge which is much different to using a medium class mount like a gem. Paired with the simple feedback system of the asiair PA routine and its even easier. PA was even easier when the app and associated firmware was running from version 1.9, I could get PA to below 10 arc seconds every time under 5 minutes or so, it's slightly more niggly now taking longer and I usually leave it at 50 arc seconds or so.

Unfortunately, I've not tried PA on anything. Or maybe I should say fortunately... 

I'm not looking forward to it already. On the up side, at least I can see Polaris from my garden, so I won't have to guess where it is! 

Hopefully ZWO will put out another update to fix the PA routine, seems like a nice quick job! 

[Elp]

7 hours ago, Martyn87 said:

Hopefully ZWO will put out another update to fix the PA routine

Please don't construe what I've said as a negative, it's still the best and easiest method of PA ive used.

[Martyn87]

Just seen this one mentioned in another thread on the forum, might the EQ-AL55i be a decent option? https://www.firstlightoptics.com/equatorial-astronomy-mounts/sky-watcher-eq-al55i-pro-go-to-astronomy-mount.html

[Martyn87]

Didn't mess about and ordered the f6. 3 reducer as recommended. Not had chance to try it properly yet but took a break in the clouds to check the difference in FOV, I think it'll be staying in place full time now... 

[Captain Scarlet]

You might also consider the SW EQM-35. It’s received a bad press from others on here, mainly because it’s not a top-notch performer for AP/guiding. I guess this is partly due to it having bushings rather than bearings.

But it is go-to and it has a decent payload. The “M” in the designation stands for modular, meaning you can remove the whole Dec axis assembly and make it into a simpler lighter tracking-only mount.

I have one, and it’s fine, it works perfectly well for my use: I use it for visual, but as an entry-level AP mount it will do.

Cheers, Magnus

[Martyn87]

Thanks Magnus, good to have some info from people using the less common SkyWatcher mounts! 

The thing I can't quite get my head around is why SW have 3 goto mounts with less than £50 between them at retail:

EQM-35 Pro - £659

EQ-AL55i Pro - £683 (albeit reduced on FLO from £759)

EQ5 Pro - £699

 

The AL55i is the one that's taken my eye at the moment as I quite like the idea of driving it from my mobile instead of the had controller, and when I'm imaging, I'll probably have it hooked up to a PC of some sort anyways. It also uses servo motors rather than steppers, which in theory should be smoother... really though, there doesn't seem to be a lot between them. There's the HEQ5 too, but that's way more expensive, not far off double the price new!

Sky at Night mag put of a review of it recently and they seemed to like it, but I don't know how much faith to put in their reviews... https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/reviews/sky-watcher-eq-al55i-pro-mount

[Elp]

There's a reason why the heq5 is popular and gets recommended a lot.

When I looked at the 35 I was put off by the majority feedback I felt that it's inadequate for imaging so I didn't pursue it.

If you plan on imaging with the focal reducer (so FL 1000mm) you really need a good mount (well made/designed) with autoguiding enabled, it was difficult even with my well balanced gem28 and off axis guiding. 

[LandyJon]

I started out with a 6SE and the reducer is a must, don't remove it until you're up to speed on everything else, the narrower FoV is good for smaller targets but introduces much greater need for accuracy in pa, guiding etc. and needs much longer total exposure times.

With the reducer I was happy with what I was getting after 4.5 hrs, at F10 it'd take days worth.

On PA I can't fault Sharpcap, the routine is simple, expose at park position, rotate 90° and expose again, then it guides you to adjust the bolts.  I can get down to 5 arcsec on the EQ6 in <2 mins provided the laptop is in view from the mount (often it's in the kitchen and going back n forth makes it harder).

It's a premium feature on Sharpcap, but the £10 ish per year is a small price to pay for the PA alone.  I find the software great for capture and the focus aids and calibration frame routines all work with ease.

I had a guide scope on mine which worked fine, since upgrading to 9.25 the OAG is invaluable but more to learn and unnecessary at 6" I'd say especially starting out.

The other thing I'd mention is look at the field of view differences the camera sensor size makes. I started with a very small 183 sensor which made things more difficult, stick with larger sensors if you can, to keep that FoV wide and minimise the headaches.

 

 

[Martyn87]

6 hours ago, Elp said:

There's a reason why the heq5 is popular and gets recommended a lot.

When I looked at the 35 I was put off by the majority feedback I felt that it's inadequate for imaging so I didn't pursue it.

If you plan on imaging with the focal reducer (so FL 1000mm) you really need a good mount (well made/designed) with autoguiding enabled, it was difficult even with my well balanced gem28 and off axis guiding. 

Thanks Elp, I'd definitely still prefer a HEQ5, it's clearly going to a better mount, but I can't find any used ones in my usual places at the minute. Maybe I just need to wait for my classifieds access and keep an eye on there