Help picking a scope alongside some practicality advice.

[essentialblend]

Hi all!

Hope you're all keeping well. I quite(!) recently got into astronomy and was doing some research on picking a scope. While I felt I had some options nailed down, which I'll mention below, I felt confused about its day-to-day usage.

I'm a fresh post graduate, living in either a 1 bed flat, or ensuite rooms, based out of Nottingham. I do not have a car. Now, considering my finances, I came upon two basic tracks.

1) Play it safe around the 100-150 quid, go for something like a heritage ~100p and call it a day. No money issues, no portability issues.
2) Invest the money, possibly go for 150/200mm dobs, and use it forever. Anything more than that just intuitively feels impractical considering my situation.

Now my confusion lies here, say I invested the money and got a 8" dob. How am I supposed to use it on the reg? Am I to carry it (walking or public transit in my case) to spots and use it? If I have a window, can I just accept the FOV limit and enjoy what I can see from my flat window? Will I be able to (with the reasonable size/carry effort) easily transport it to places by myself? This is where my main confusion lies.

If the idea is that I need to carry my scope a lot, find remote places etc, I'm unsure about the practicality of a 8", as I don't have a car (accounting for the worst case scenario that I might not have good views where I live and maybe need to transport a bit). In this case, something like a Heritage 100 or 150p seems like a no-brainer.

If ^ that is normal, and it's convenient to do so, then I imagine going out of the way to invest in one good 8".

Please do help me with this as I don't have any astronomer friends to ask, neither can I easily imagine how I'd be using it, which is making my decision hard. Granted I could order and return in 30 days etc, but that's not what I'm relying on apart from a last resort measure.

 

Kind regards,

Sid
 

[Elp]

Considering your living circumstances do not get a dobsonian or Newtonian, you'd need to be the most determined person in the world to get regular use out of them due to having to carry them out and back in again. It's not impossible, but the easier the lugging around and setup time the better and the more likely you'll use it.

You can view through a window though it's not ideal as the glass will distort the view as well as any hot air between outside and the scopes optics, you'll also vastly restrict what you can see due to your narrow field of view.

Edited January 27 by Elp

[essentialblend]

1 hour ago, Elp said:

Considering your living circumstances do not get a dobsonian or Newtonian, you'd need to be the most determined person in the world to get regular use out of them due to having to carry them out and back in again. It's not impossible, but the easier the lugging around and setup time the better and the more likely you'll use it.

I definitely hear you! Even knowing close to nothing about these scopes, I could definitely imagine this portability problem. No point buying something that I CBA to put in the effort to take out / stays in my closet. I "think" I'm motivated enough to put in that effort, but I need to consider this factor.

My question was more along the "what do you peeps usually do". Are most of you transporting your dobs in cars, finding a clear view on the regular? Can't I simply pack and carry it walking personally? (this is where I was confused as well, because I didn't find carry bags (only found covers) of any kind. So I don't even know, okay I disassemble the tube and the stand, how am I to carry this walking? Especially if its an 8".

Would you also advise against something like a heritage 150p? That felt quite small and portable to me. I originally settled on dobs/newtonians because of my interest in DSO's. From what little I read, if I simply cared about the moon or planets, I'd be happier and chilled out with a refractor, but unfortunately I'm on the other end of this spectrum, and already feel aperture fever in that sense. Since it's a chunk of my savings, it doesn't make sense to me to spend 150-250 quid when I could simply spend a 100 more and reach the sweet spot with an 8" dob. I just don't know how I'm supposed to use it on the daily.

Edited January 27 by essentialblend

[Elp]

It's the bulk/volume you have to think about. Think about the ease of carrying a refractor in your hand, tripod and mount in the other vs a large and bottom heavy bucket which you need two hands to comfortably carry, maybe up and down some steps too. I need to carry my stuff out so only get what purposefully fits into bags I can carry on my back, the limit due to the amount of other stuff I had to carry (full AP rig) was a 130PDS which I did find a backpack for, but still called for multiple in and out trips for everything else. Compare this to my refractor or camera setup where everything fits into one bag, maybe a tripod in hand also if I decide to use the taller one. Far far easier to manage and I use them more as a result.

What you can visually see between scopes will depend on your bortle zone and local light pollution. I'm bortle 7, have little chance of seeing DSO (I've gone up to 6 inch), they're the slightest slightest fuzzy blurs almost invisible even something like Andromeda galaxy, so you'll have to be prepared for this. Going to a dark site will be far better, but you need transportation or someone who's got the same passion as you with transport and my point about portability comes into play again, though you can likely get away with a larger setup more if it's on occasion rather than regular.

The heritage comes widely regarded. Solar system viewing is quite easy with most scopes, resolution and focal length usually comes with larger apertures. DSO objects requires both, but also minimal LP. It's why I image more than view, a camera can see over time so will always see more than via human vision, the halfway gap is doing EAA using a camera as a visual assist tool.

Edited January 27 by Elp

[essentialblend]

13 minutes ago, Elp said:

It's the bulk/volume you have to think about. Think about the ease of carrying a refractor in your hand, tripod and mount in the other vs a large and bottom heavy bucket which you need two hands to comfortably carry, maybe up and down some steps too. I need to carry my stuff out so only get what purposefully fits into bags I can carry on my back, the limit due to the amount of other stuff I had to carry (full AP rig) was a 130PDS which I did find a backpack for, but still called for multiple in and out trips for everything else. Compare this to my refractor or camera setup where everything fits into one bag, maybe a tripod in hand also if I decide to use the taller one. Far far easier to manage and I use them more as a result.

What you can visually see between scopes will depend on your bortle zone and local light pollution. I'm bortle 7, have little chance of seeing DSO (I've gone up to 6 inch), they're the slightest slightest fuzzy blurs almost invisible even something like Andromeda galaxy, so you'll have to be prepared for this. Going to a dark site will be far better, but you need transportation or someone who's got the same passion as you with transport and my point about portability comes into play again, though you can likely get away with a larger setup more if it's on occasion rather than regular.

The heritage comes widely regarded. Solar system viewing is quite easy with most scopes, resolution and focal length usually comes with larger apertures. DSO objects requires both, but also minimal LP. It's why I image more than view, a camera can see over time so will always see more than via human vision, the halfway gap is doing EAA using a camera as a visual assist tool.

Just for clarity, I don't care about AP at all right now. All I imagine having is the tube, the stand, and its accessories (unless I'm missing anything). I tried looking up my current area's bortle zone, but only found some maps without labels, so don't have a clue about this at the moment, thanks for this information. I had no clue.

Is it even possible to carry an 8" dob via public transit if I had to? What I can imagine doing occasionally, is just booking a cab to the nearest clear view available and making an occasion out of it. And on the daily, maybe use it near my residence. I can still imagine carrying and setting it up nearby my residence, but it's this inter-area thing I'm confused about. I find the 8" to be the best value for money in this circumstance, and just trying to see if I can realistically make it work. If not, I will simply go for 150p and call it a day, but I don't want to do that. Refractors, honestly I'm not even considering.

[Elp]

If you've got an astro society nearby I'd attend and see what others are using. An 8 inch dob is doable, you'd have to look at the weight as most of the weight is in the rocker box (base).

[Second Time Around]

Bear in mind that if you buy something like a Heritage you're going to need a table to put it on and probably cart around.

As you're primarily interested in DSOs and live in the city another possibility is the ZWO Seestar.  It's essentially a camera rather than a scope in as much as the image builds up on a screen over a period of a few minutes rather than your looking through an eyepiece.

However, it'll show you way more details in DSOs than an 8 inch Dob used visually.  It's also extremely portable indeed and can easily be carried on public transport.  Plus it doesn't need to be mounted on a table.

It's not cheap at £539 but it comes complete and will serve you for many years to come.

I can't speak from personal experience as I use night vision devices for DSOs, but I'm sure others will chip in about the pros and cons of the Seestar for someone in your circumstances.

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

+1 for a Seestar.  It will work well for imaging emission nebulae even in a city, giving you far better views than you could hope to get visually.  It will also work on other DSO's, especially if you can take it to a darker site, which would be easy to do, since it is small, very portable, and comes in a carry case.

Be aware that galaxies will be a disappointment visually, and barely visible unless you have a scope of significant aperture at a dark skies site.  All I can see of galaxies from my urban location is a grey smudge representing the central nucleus of a few of the brightest ones.  But if I use EVAA (q.v.) it's a different story.🙂

[essentialblend]

29 minutes ago, Second Time Around said:

Bear in mind that if you buy something like a Heritage you're going to need a table to put it on and probably cart around.

As you're primarily interested in DSOs and live in the city another possibility is the ZWO Seestar.  It's essentially a camera rather than a scope in as much as the image builds up on a screen over a period of a few minutes rather than your looking through an eyepiece.

However, it'll show you way more details in DSOs than an 8 inch Dob used visually.  It's also extremely portable indeed and can easily be carried on public transport.  Plus it doesn't need to be mounted on a table.

It's not cheap at £539 but it comes complete and will serve you for many years to come.

I can't speak from personal experience as I use night vision devices for DSOs, but I'm sure others will chip in about the pros and cons of the Seestar for someone in your circumstances.

 

This looks super cool! Way out of my working budget for now, but would definitely consider this for when I have some money to blow. I was primarily interested in basic visual astronomy for now. Thanks for sharing!

 

3 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

+1 for a Seestar.  It will work well for imaging emission nebulae even in a city, giving you far better views than you could hope to get visually.  It will also work on other DSO's, especially if you can take it to a darker site, which would be easy to do, since it is small, very portable, and comes in a carry case.

Be aware that galaxies will be a disappointment visually, and barely visible unless you have a scope of significant aperture at a dark skies site.  All I can see of galaxies from my urban location is a grey smudge representing the central nucleus of a few of the brightest ones.  But if I use EVAA (q.v.) it's a different story.🙂

Oh I definitely agree (and read up on this on a site), I saw a bunch of pics of DSO's which effectively looked like a faint smudge. My original expectations were slightly higher (lol), but I definitely appreciate them as to where I don't imagine being bored. Gotta say, could be totally wrong on this lol. One of those things I'm not fully able to gauge without using one first hand.

55 minutes ago, Elp said:

If you've got an astro society nearby I'd attend and see what others are using. An 8 inch dob is doable, you'd have to look at the weight as most of the weight is in the rocker box (base).

I looked up and joined the Nottingham soc, will try and catch them in a couple of days. Sounds fun! I'll get to maybe use one and see, just to get a reality-check on my expectations before buying anything, although I think I know what to expect based on what everyone said. Definitely not making the rookie mistake of confusing astronomy with AP, for sure.

[cajen2]

I'm in a good position to pass on a bit of experience here. I have a Heritage 150p, plus a Starfield 102 refractor and until last year, had a StellaLyra 8" dob.

The 8" is NOT what I'd call easily portable, especially if you'd be carrying it up and down stairs. You'd have to split the scope and its mount, and both are pretty heavy, so two trips required. You can buy an Oklop bag for the 8" which makes it easier by having the strap over your shoulder, but it isn't so much the weight as its sheer awkwardness. I'd leave the idea of a large dob until you're totally settled.

The Heritage overcomes a lot of these problems. It's easy enough to pick up the scope on its mount and carry it in one hand. For carriage on public transport it's simple, particularly if you get a carry bag for the scope itself. The only downsides are the focuser, which takes a bit of getting used to, and the fact you need something stable to mount it on. I use a three-legged stool, which works well but is something else to carry.

IMO, your best bet for now is a smallish but good quality refractor using a lightweight mount and tripod. With carry bags, all that's easy on a bus or in a taxi. A 100mm class frac like mine is perhaps a little too long and expensive for you currently, but an 80mm one would be ideal and is capable of giving you excellent views. I'm sure the assembled crowd on here will give you recommendations, as I never try to recommend something I haven't used myself.

[essentialblend]

31 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

I'm in a good position to pass on a bit of experience here. I have a Heritage 150p, plus a Starfield 102 refractor and until last year, had a StellaLyra 8" dob.

The 8" is NOT what I'd call easily portable, especially if you'd be carrying it up and down stairs. You'd have to split the scope and its mount, and both are pretty heavy, so two trips required. You can buy an Oklop bag for the 8" which makes it easier by having the strap over your shoulder, but it isn't so much the weight as its sheer awkwardness. I'd leave the idea of a large dob until you're totally settled.

The Heritage oevercomes a lot of these problems. It's easy enough to pick up the scope on its mount and carry it in one hand. For carriage on public transport it's simple, particularly if you get a carry bag for the scope itself. The only downsides are the focuser, which takes a bit of getting used to, and the fact you need something stable to mount it on. I use a three-legged stool, which works well but is something else to carry.

IMO, your best bet for now is a smallish but good quality refractor using a lightweight mount and tripod. With carry bags, all that's easy on a bus or in a taxi. A 100mm class frac like mine is perhaps a little too long and expensive for you currently, but an 80mm one would be ideal and is capable of giving you excellent views. I'm sure the assembled crowd on here will give you recommendations, as I never try to recommend something I haven't used myself.

I think a chunk of this decision will be much easier for me as I get a final handle on where I'll be moving to in March, and whether I have elevators / nearby areas with good egress. I am not planning to buy it immediately anyway.

I honestly am still not able to get myself to consider a refractor out of aperture fever of a kind, sounds like a no-brainer from a portability perspective for sure. This is more confusing than I'd like.

 

Edit- Based off the advise I got off you lovely peeps here, I'm narrowing it down to a 150p, and hesitantly considering a refractor. And I have not looked up anything on them. Considering the 150 quid working budget to a stretch around 250quid for value for money, what should I consider in terms of refractors? Not including the post purchase upgrades in this budget. 

Edited January 27 by essentialblend

[PhilB61]

I think you really need to get to see and use an 8" DOB before committing, for one thing it's bigger than you might expect and if you are in a bedsit where will you keep it? You are unlikely to be able to carry it in one go, especially with required accessories and if negotiating stairs etc. a sack cart or trolley might help. And taking on public transport would be a nightmare. You would also have to collimate on every outing. However if your accomodation has an outside amenity area that you could use it might be doable. Viewing through a window is not a viable option unless you have very large windows and still gives very poor quality views. A small refractor used outside will give better views than a large DOB through a window! One other consideration is your personal safety, an urban park or public space after dark is not somewhere I would like to be, especially with valuable and bulky equipment to that you can't easily pickup and walk away with. Sorry if this all sounds a bit negative, that is not my intention, but sometimes we have to adjust our desires/objectives based upon our current circumstances and at this point in your life you may get more use from a small refractor than a large DOB.

[essentialblend]

32 minutes ago, PhilB61 said:

I think you really need to get to see and use an 8" DOB before committing, for one thing it's bigger than you might expect and if you are in a bedsit where will you keep it? You are unlikely to be able to carry it in one go, especially with required accessories and if negotiating stairs etc. a sack cart or trolley might help. And taking on public transport would be a nightmare. You would also have to collimate on every outing. However if your accomodation has an outside amenity area that you could use it might be doable. Viewing through a window is not a viable option unless you have very large windows and still gives very poor quality views. A small refractor used outside will give better views than a large DOB through a window! One other consideration is your personal safety, an urban park or public space after dark is not somewhere I would like to be, especially with valuable and bulky equipment to that you can't easily pickup and walk away with. Sorry if this all sounds a bit negative, that is not my intention, but sometimes we have to adjust our desires/objectives based upon our current circumstances and at this point in your life you may get more use from a small refractor than a large DOB.

Highly appreciate your advice. Even based off those scale images, it does look big and unwieldy. I've all but ruled it out, and I'm now leaning more towards a 150p (either a dob, OTA + tripod(?) setup) or a refractor. I will only ever consider an 8" if my living conditions 150% accommodate it. Good egress / immediately accessible clean back/front yard areas / no stairs etc. (which is all just a hope-shot, I'd need to get ultra lucky for that)

What I "want" is just making it worse with regards to the 8" because I feel I could pull it off financially, but again no point having something so inconvenient that it barely gets used.

Happy to take a refractor rec against a 150p (as that's what I'm 90% leaning towards).

Edited January 27 by essentialblend

[essentialblend]

1 hour ago, cajen2 said:

I'm in a good position to pass on a bit of experience here. I have a Heritage 150p, plus a Starfield 102 refractor and until last year, had a StellaLyra 8" dob.

The 8" is NOT what I'd call easily portable, especially if you'd be carrying it up and down stairs. You'd have to split the scope and its mount, and both are pretty heavy, so two trips required. You can buy an Oklop bag for the 8" which makes it easier by having the strap over your shoulder, but it isn't so much the weight as its sheer awkwardness. I'd leave the idea of a large dob until you're totally settled.

The Heritage overcomes a lot of these problems. It's easy enough to pick up the scope on its mount and carry it in one hand. For carriage on public transport it's simple, particularly if you get a carry bag for the scope itself. The only downsides are the focuser, which takes a bit of getting used to, and the fact you need something stable to mount it on. I use a three-legged stool, which works well but is something else to carry.

IMO, your best bet for now is a smallish but good quality refractor using a lightweight mount and tripod. With carry bags, all that's easy on a bus or in a taxi. A 100mm class frac like mine is perhaps a little too long and expensive for you currently, but an 80mm one would be ideal and is capable of giving you excellent views. I'm sure the assembled crowd on here will give you recommendations, as I never try to recommend something I haven't used myself.

Also @cajen2, could you please give me a low down on your experience with refractors? I feel I saw a bunch of representational images for reflectors, but not for refractors, I don't know what I should be comparing against apart from portability.

[cajen2]

No problem, but you're opening a can of worms here, as everybody will have an opinion, not necessarily the same as mine! 😆

Fir me, the strengths of the various types of scope (assuming a good quality model) are as follows:

Reflectors. Best value for money scopes, especially dob mounted. They can hoist in a lot of light as aperture per £ is great. Accordingly, they're great for the fainter deep sky objects, though of course they'll do the other stuff well too. The portability problems we've discussed.

Refractors. For me, by far the sharpest and clearest images if they have good quality glass. Cheaper ones can suffer from colour fringing around bright objects. Great on stars, star clusters and double/multiple stars, though planets can look great too. Often have wonderful contrast.

Maksutovs/SCTs. If you want a scope that will give you sizeable views of planets, you want one of these. They have long focal lengths, meaning it's possible to have high magnifications if the seeing allows. They suffer from dewing up and cooling down problems. The field of view can also be very narrow.

These are all generalisations of course, so not always true. You can see that no one type of scope is perfect for everything, so it's a matter of priorities.

[cajen2]

As for my experience of refractors, I should let others answer this as I've only owned one, a Starfield 102 ED, though I've used a huge variety of different ones at star parties. The SF is superb.

What I will say is that cheaper ones may suffer from colour problems as above. This annoys some people more than others. More expensive ED scopes have glass which can lower or eliminate this.

[essentialblend]

Just now, cajen2 said:

As for my experience of refractors, I should let others answer this as I've only owned one, a Starfield 102 ED, though I've used a huge variety of different ones at star parties. The SF is superb.

What I will say is that cheaper ones may suffer from colour problems as above. This annoys some people more than others. More expensive ED scopes have glass which can lower or eliminate this.

Looks slick, just 3x out of my budget is all. I also quite enjoyed the Seestar rec from Second Time Around, I just don't have the money for it. Even if I killed myself, the max I could penny together'd be 350-400 quid lol.

As of now I'm simply considering the 6" dobs after taking yours + others advice. I found 3-4 sku's counting OTA's + dobs. Thank you so much for taking the time to help! :))

I also did some basic youtubing on refractors and the good ones I found to be way too expensive for my current situation.

[cajen2]

5 minutes ago, essentialblend said:

Looks slick, just 3x out of my budget is all. I also quite enjoyed the Seestar rec from Second Time Around, I just don't have the money for it. Even if I killed myself, the max I could penny together'd be 350-400 quid lol.

As of now I'm simply considering the 6" dobs after taking yours + others advice. I found 3-4 sku's counting OTA's + dobs. Thank you so much for taking the time to help! :))

I also did some basic youtubing on refractors and the good ones I found to be way too expensive for my current situation.

Look at our sponsors' website, First Light Optics, for a huge range of scopes in your budget. Check out the 6" dobs available from the likes of Bresser and Ursa Major, especially the tabletop versions.

When you've posted enough, you'll get access to the classifieds on here. That'll widen your choice if you're willing to wait.

Edited January 27 by cajen2

[essentialblend]

5 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

Look at our sponsors' website, First Light Optics, for a huge range of scopes in your budget. Check out the 6" dobs available from the likes of Bresser and Ursa Major, especially the tabletop versions.

Yep this is what I gathered for now off FLO. Could definitely use your advice in narrowing down. One more thing I don't know is, would an OTA + Tripod of some sort be equally if not more portable than a similar dob? I don't know what tripods / stands to go for if I went the OTA way, I'm presuming I'd have to spend more than its dob equivalent. I don't yet fully understand the specs either, to know what'd be the best option amongst these for DSOs.

I excluded the StellaLyra 6" for now as it was more expensive than the others, unless I get personal recs.

Edited January 27 by essentialblend

[Elp]

It's actually more difficult shopping for a mount plus tripod for a refractor than a dob (one of the reasons dobs are usually recommended to beginners as well as aperture per pound). Most bundled mount and particularly the tripod ones aren't fit for purpose. Tripod is probably THE most important piece of kit, I'd say more so than the mount. A rickety tripod will kill the experience dead. You can get away with a shaky mount if it's on a strong tripod. Unfortunately these usually don't come cheap (doesn't have to be extortionately expensive either). I've done the cheap scope thing, and wish I went with my 60mm apo refractor from the beginning (still my most used scope). I've never bought a dob though, due to my consideration of storing and lugging it around doesn't fit into my requirements, plus my LP issue, the slight aperture increase won't make a difference in my case and will simply amplify the local light pollution and sky glow.

Edited January 27 by Elp

[cajen2]

All those scopes would give you very good views: there's not much difference in the quality of mirrors in all those brands. I always hesitate to recommend any scope which I haven't owned but of those, I'd probably go for the Bresser. The ones with 'normal' focusers are easier to use than the Heritage's helical one.

With your budget, I'd avoid a tripod-mounted reflector. You'd need a very solid mount, which can cost more than the scope.

[essentialblend]

Okay based on Elp and Cajen's advise I'm sticking with dobs. Narrowed it down to 150p and Bressier based on cajen's suggestions.

What would be the best 6" dob y'all would recommend from a purely DSO perspective? if any I've missed maybe.

Edited January 27 by essentialblend

[PhilB61]

I think a 6" DOB would be a great choice for use at your home location but whilst not impossible is still not really practical for taking on UK public transport. If your only means of travel to a viewing site is public transport or on foot then a lightweight alternative could be something like a Skywatcher 72ED on a decent photo tripod with a ball head. The views are great for the size, and it would be really easy to transport (about 5kg total weight and compact) out of the city where it will give much better views than a DOB in the city. I owned a 6" reflector on a poor EQ1/2 mount and tripod when living in Bortle 7/8 location and besides the shakes when trying to focus all that could be seen where the moon and brightest planets plus a handful of stars, I think I saw a slight smudge of Andromeda once. The views through a 72ed size scope if you can get to say Bortle 4 would be massively enhanced, obviously if you had the means to get a DOB to Bortle 4 it would be significantly better again.

[Robthepiano]

Would you consider a wide field refractor like this https://www.firstlightoptics.com/startravel/skywatcher-startravel-102-az3.html

at 3.8kg including mount it would be easily portable, fairly robust and give you some great views till you have somewhere you can use a dob. 

[Starfazed]

For £100 you could get some decent 15x70 binoculars perhaps, and join a club where you might be able to look through other's scopes?

Not mentioned so far but a spotting scope with a zoom would be very portable, though its small aperture, righted image, no finderscope and small tripod limits what you can see to moon and nearest planets (I have a 70mm that on full zoom shows Jupiter's moons).

But overall, without a rock solid tripod anything that attempts to magnify the sky beyond where binoculars can take you will be a disappointment, and even a small scope needs quite a heavy tripod to be much use so most of what you lug around might be a tripod. That said, maybe the MAC would be a good compromise in limiting the length of a tube, if you also have to carry the tripod?

Remember you can carry tripod and scope in separate bags so balance easier. My 150 Discovery would be the limit of what I'd want to carry on a train though and the two bags it requires (sourced on Amazon, generic bags) would fill the boot of a small car.