2" seeker / wide FOV EP showdown: APM UFF 30mm vs Meade UWA 24mm vs Skywatcher Myriad 20mm

[Franklin]

12 hours ago, Don Pensack said:

A number of people use the field flattener for visual.  It works in scopes of f/4-f/9.

You will need spacers to get to its working distance.

I'll have to have a play with that, thanks. Do I need to adjust the spacing for different eyepieces? or do I just go with the recommended "thread to sensor" spacing for scope focal length as given in the instructions?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Franklin

[badhex]

3 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

I'm assuming that the OEM eyepiece range from which the StellaLyra UFF is a branding includes the 35mm since other brandings (the TS-Optics one that I mentioned) seem to include longer focal lengths.

Unfortunately the Lacerta 40mm seems to be in very short supply again, with little data available about it.

The Aero ED clones (technically clones of TMB Paragon) were originally 30mm and 40mm, and a new 35mm was added later but not designed by Thomas M Back. These are now branded as lots of different things such as Aero ED (although they are now unavailable in that branding), Lacerta and TS-Optics. They are not the same line as the UFF series which only go up to 30mm. Hope that clarifies? 

[Louis D]

6 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

I'm assuming that the OEM eyepiece range from which the StellaLyra UFF is a branding includes the 35mm since other brandings (the TS-Optics one that I mentioned) seem to include longer focal lengths.

It's the same as the APM UFF line which includes 10mm, 15mm, 18mm, 24mm, and 30mm versions:

It could be that KUO makes the ED line as well as the UFF line, thus the similarity in appearance that you noticed.

You may also be confusing the 30mm ED with the 30mm UFF which are not the same design at all.  The 30mm and 40mm EDs were originally TMB Paragon designs.  The 35mm was introduced later after the death of Thomas M Back under other labels.

I see @badhex beat me to the punch, but on the next page of responses.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Louis D

[Louis D]

3 hours ago, Franklin said:

I'll have to have a play with that, thanks. Do I need to adjust the spacing for different eyepieces? or do you I just go with the recommended "thread to sensor" spacing for scope focal length as given in the instructions?

I've found that if I add 15mm of extension to a GSO dielectric 2" diagonal along with an SCT to M48 thread adapter, I get pretty close to perfect results in either my 432mm 72ED or 600mm 90mm APO.  I tried removing the 15mm extension for the latter as suggested by the separation table, but the results were worse.

[Louis D]

6 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

Unfortunately the Lacerta 40mm seems to be in very short supply again, with little data available about it.

Try Budapest Telescope Centre.  They show low stock rather than no stock.  I've bought from them before without any issues.

[Don Pensack]

6 hours ago, Franklin said:

I'll have to have a play with that, thanks. Do I need to adjust the spacing for different eyepieces? or do you I just go with the recommended "thread to sensor" spacing for scope focal length as given in the instructions?

Well, technically, you'd adjust every eyepiece's focal plane to the working distance required.

A few mm either way won't make a difference.

That's why some people attach it to an extension tube and then simply use the extension tube as a "drop-in" accessory.

If you want to be fussy about it, you could use it as a screw-on accessory and simply attach different spacers to each eyepiece to set the distance.

I don't think most users would do that, though.

 

[Don Pensack]

2 hours ago, Louis D said:

It's the same as the APM UFF line which includes 10mm, 15mm, 18mm, 24mm, and 30mm versions:

It could be that KUO makes the ED line as well as the UFF line, thus the similarity in appearance that you noticed.

You may also be confusing the 30mm ED with the 30mm UFF which are not the same design at all.  The 30mm and 40mm EDs were originally TMB Paragon designs.  The 35mm was introduced later after the death of Thomas M Back under other labels.

I see @badhex beat me to the punch, but on the next page of responses.

It is important to note that the field stops shown above for the UFF line are NOT the field stop figures we use for field of view determinations.

It is confusing, but those are the mechanical stops that are modified by the lenses in the stack to yield different figures.

The field stop figures of relevance to SGL viewers interested in calculating true field figures are:

10.5mm (actual focal length) --11.2mm field stop

15mm--18.2mm field stop

18mm--21.7mm field stop

24mm--27.6mm field stop

30mm--36.3mm field stop

 

And yes, as noted, the Aero ED and the UFFs are two completely different eyepiece lines.

[badhex]

10 hours ago, Louis D said:

Try Budapest Telescope Centre.  They show low stock rather than no stock.  I've bought from them before without any issues.

Also, Lacerta do have them in stock:

https://lacerta-optics.com/LA40ed

I could be wrong about this but I believe that Budapest Telescope Centre is in fact run by Lacerta, or at least in partnership with them somehow. The logo matches Lacerta's Austrian Telescope Centre shops, for one. I have a feeling that I figured out a while back that Lacerta is was formed by folks from Austria and Hungary, but I can't remember how/why I discovered that.

[badhex]

10 hours ago, Louis D said:

It could be that KUO makes the ED line as well as the UFF line, thus the similarity in appearance that you noticed.

I believe you are correct - Ernest notes that the EDs are KUO

http://astro-talks.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=863

Edited January 23, 2023 by badhex

[PeterC65]

10 hours ago, Louis D said:

Try Budapest Telescope Centre.  They show low stock rather than no stock.  I've bought from them before without any issues.

That's good to know. Their shipping cost to the UK is the same price as the eyepiece though!

Do you happen to know what the specified eye relief is for the Lacerta ED 40mm? I can't find it specified anywhere.

[badhex]

30 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

That's good to know. Their shipping cost to the UK is the same price as the eyepiece though!

Do you happen to know what the specified eye relief is for the Lacerta ED 40mm? I can't find it specified anywhere.

17mm from the eye lens, 8mm from the eyecup when fully extended, according to Ernest in the Astro Talks link above. I've never measured mine, but that seems about right and he's pretty methodical so I trust his figures. 

You might find the shipping cheaper from Lacerta, I think it's about 45 EUR including customs to UK according to their site. 

[PeterC65]

Am I right in thinking that the Lacerta ED 40mm is an ED clone, so the same as the Aero ED 40mm? Harrison Telescopes still have all three Aero ED's listed (out of stock) and they specify the eye relief at 20mm for the 40mm. If the Lacerta ED 40mm is indeed an ED clone then I think @Louis D is saying that that the Aero ED 40mm is a better bet than the Aero ED 35mm.

Does anyone know whether the TS-Optics PARACOR UFL 35mm is another ED clone, so a clone of the Aero ED 35mm? They only seem to offer 35mm (no 30mm or 40mm).

 

[PeterC65]

40 minutes ago, badhex said:

You might find the shipping cheaper from Lacerta, I think it's about 45 EUR including customs to UK according to their site. 

Lacerta don't seem to ship to the UK at all!

[badhex]

1 hour ago, PeterC65 said:

Am I right in thinking that the Lacerta ED 40mm is an ED clone, so the same as the Aero ED 40mm? Harrison Telescopes still have all three Aero ED's listed (out of stock) and they specify the eye relief at 20mm for the 40mm. If the Lacerta ED 40mm is indeed an ED clone then I think @Louis D is saying that that the Aero ED 40mm is a better bet than the Aero ED 35mm.

Does anyone know whether the TS-Optics PARACOR UFL 35mm is another ED clone, so a clone of the Aero ED 35mm? They only seem to offer 35mm (no 30mm or 40mm).

 

Yep, Lacerta, TS-Optics, Aero ED are all the same, just different branding. I own the TS-Optics 35mm and the Lacerta 40mm, and agree with @Louis Dthat the 40mm is the better option. You're unlikely to find anything better at that price/quality/weight balance, as far as I can tell.  I use my 40mm far more than my Panoptic 41mm because it's way more convenient and lighter (approx similar to my other EPs), and whilst there is an obvious difference in quality, its not worth getting out the Panoptic and rebalancing the scope! 

A couple of years ago, I looked for quite a few months for the 40mm but it was not available anywhere under any branding, so bought the 35mm (which as mentioned was not part of the original TMB Paragon lineup) from TS as it was the closest I could get. 

Then last year I noticed that Lacerta had started stocking the 40mm so I got that as well before it disappeared again. 

Lacerta mention that they ship to the UK in their shipping info section, I can try logging in and see if they give me the option of uk shipping in the checkout process if you like. 

[badhex]

Yep you're right, no option to ship to the UK in the drop down. Maybe give them a call? 

[Louis D]

6 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

Do you happen to know what the specified eye relief is for the Lacerta ED 40mm? I can't find it specified anywhere.

I measured 11mm of usable eye relief using the flashlight projection method.  The eye lens is recessed 7mm, so 18mm of design eye relief.

Believe it or not, but I've had no issues seeing the entire AFOV in the 40mm Lacerta ED with my eyeglasses on.  They do have to be in contact with the fully retracted eye cup, but it works just fine for me.  I reverified this Saturday night.  I can't explain this result any more than being able to see the entire AFOV of the Svbony 3-8mm zoom at 8mm with eyeglasses pressed lightly against the rolled down eye cup.  It has a bit less measured, usable eye relief than the Lacerta.

For comparison, I have to really cram my eyeglasses really hard into my 27mm Panoptic to see its entire AFOV, and it claims to have 19mm of eye relief, though I've measured just 14mm of usable ER.  The eye lens is barely recessed, so it must be down to its concavity.  I even scratched an expensive eyeglass lens on the exposed, metal retaining ring on the eye lens of that eyepiece.  I have had no qualms retiring it in favor of the 30mm APM UFF.  Had the UFF existed in the late 90s, I would have never bought the 27mm Panoptic in the first place.

That concave eye lens versus flat eye lens may be part of eye relief usability despite what the ER numbers say.  Eyepieces with steeply converging eye rays from concave eye lenses may be more difficult to use with eyeglasses than those with more gently converging eye rays from relatively flat topped eye lenses.

[Louis D]

6 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

That's good to know. Their shipping cost to the UK is the same price as the eyepiece though!

I paid about $65 in shipping costs to the US; but on the plus side, FedEx got it here in 3 days.  Since I didn't pay the 25% special tariff, 8% regular tariff, or 8.25% sales tax, I was still paying about the typical used price for them in the US ($170).

[Don Pensack]

5 hours ago, Louis D said:

I measured 11mm of usable eye relief using the flashlight projection method.  The eye lens is recessed 7mm, so 18mm of design eye relief.

Believe it or not, but I've had no issues seeing the entire AFOV in the 40mm Lacerta ED with my eyeglasses on.  They do have to be in contact with the fully retracted eye cup, but it works just fine for me.  I reverified this Saturday night.  I can't explain this result any more than being able to see the entire AFOV of the Svbony 3-8mm zoom at 8mm with eyeglasses pressed lightly against the rolled down eye cup.  It has a bit less measured, usable eye relief than the Lacerta.

For comparison, I have to really cram my eyeglasses really hard into my 27mm Panoptic to see its entire AFOV, and it claims to have 19mm of eye relief, though I've measured just 14mm of usable ER.  The eye lens is barely recessed, so it must be down to its concavity.  I even scratched an expensive eyeglass lens on the exposed, metal retaining ring on the eye lens of that eyepiece.  I have had no qualms retiring it in favor of the 30mm APM UFF.  Had the UFF existed in the late 90s, I would have never bought the 27mm Panoptic in the first place.

That concave eye lens versus flat eye lens may be part of eye relief usability despite what the ER numbers say.  Eyepieces with steeply converging eye rays from concave eye lenses may be more difficult to use with eyeglasses than those with more gently converging eye rays from relatively flat topped eye lenses.

Trying a bunch of "eyeglasses-friendly" eyepieces, I discovered that 14mm of effective eye relief (from the rubber up) is my comfort limit (actually, 14.3mm on the Apollo 11)..

By pressing really hard and jamming my glasses into my eye socket, I can use as little as 12mm of effective eye relief, but it's not comfortable except as a test case to see if I can see the entire field.

Pressing that hard is what I have to to with the new Pentax XW 85°.  I'm on a search for a very low profile eyecup for those eyepieces, but haven't found one yet.

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, Don Pensack said:

Pressing that hard is what I have to to with the new Pentax XW 85°.  I'm on a search for a very low profile eyecup for those eyepieces, but haven't found one yet.

Sounds like a hard pass for me on the 23mm XW85.

The 22mm Nagler T4 was working well for me Saturday night despite not being the sharpest tool in the case.  Sure, it would be nice to have an improved version like a 23mm ES-92, but it doesn't seem like that is ever going to happen.  The XW85 could have been a contender were it not for the eye relief.

I will say I was enjoying the view through my 26mm (really 25mm) Meade MWA Saturday night.  Backed off to a comfortable eye relief distance, SAEP is not an issue.  AFOV is very similar to the 14mm Morpheus.  Sharpness is as well.  Moving your head side to side allows for seeing more field obscured by SAEP, just not all at once.  The Trapezium became difficult to split at 24x only in the last 15% of the field, which I consider a pretty decent showing.