Bresser Orion Newt - Anyone Help to Identify

[SnakeyJ]

Not a great picture, but the scope is listed as a Bresser Orion Newtonian 8"/F5 - which is probably an older Meade.    I really like the look of the tube rings and dovetail, which look pretty good quality.

Can anyone help identify the mount from this picture?

[John]

Some of the the older and better Bresser scopes, from the 1980's and early 1990's, had a matt black colour scheme and were made by Vixen in Japan. I used to have the Bresser Uranus 4" refractor which was actually a Vixen SP102M complete with the Super Polaris mount, also in black.

The scope in the picture looks to be on a Vixen Polaris mount (the Super Polaris was heavier duty) and does seem to have Vixen pattern tube rings. 

If it is by Vixen then the quality will be excellent.

PS: There was no Bresser relationship with Meade back then.

[SnakeyJ]

John,

Many thanks and very much appreciated, I was hoping that you would see this and be able to respond - just happened on this by chance, but will definitely go and look if its still available tomorrow.    The mounting hardware certainly looks substantial and good quality, though it's difficult to see much else in the photo.

I'll post any developments.

Jake

[John]

Looking more closely at the photo, the tube rings could be by Astro Systems / Astro Promotions of Bedford. If the tube is branded Bresser and it's in a matt black colour scheme then I strongly suspect a Vixen made scope.

[SnakeyJ]

Certainly intriguing - I shall be on the phone to arrange a view first thing tomorrow!

[SnakeyJ]

Little new info on this, but it's still available and I'll take a look tomorrow pm.    Unfortunately the previous owner has recently died and the family are in the process of clearing his house, though from a brief chat had it does appear to have been cherished and well used and over many years.    Exact age unknown, but certainly 20+ years which seems to fit with your period of Vixen manufacture.

If the mount is the standard Polaris this would be quite under mounted - the general consensus seems to be 10-11lb load capacity.   The Super Polaris was rated for around 16lb, which would be more useful for this f/l and weight.   Though I understand that these were well manufactured items and the ratings were based as much on the performance of the tripods.    During my hunt for information I found a scanned copy of the Super Polaris Instruction Manual (attached below for future reference).   Quite an impressive system in its day, with claimed 30min uncorrected exposure capability @ 300mm f/l.

vixen_polaris.pdf

[John]

Little new info on this, but it's still available and I'll take a look tomorrow pm.    Unfortunately the previous owner has recently died and the family are in the process of clearing his house, though from a brief chat had it does appear to have been cherished and well used and over many years.    Exact age unknown, but certainly 20+ years which seems to fit with your period of Vixen manufacture.

If the mount is the standard Polaris this would be quite under mounted - the general consensus seems to be 10-11lb load capacity.   The Super Polaris was rated for around 16lb, which would be more useful for this f/l and weight.   Though I understand that these were well manufactured items and the ratings were based as much on the performance of the tripods.    During my hunt for information I found a scanned copy of the Super Polaris Instruction Manual (attached below for future reference).   Quite an impressive system in its day, with claimed 30min uncorrected exposure capability @ 300mm f/l.

vixen_polaris.pdf

Very interesting Jake 

Vixen were quite expensive in their day but to be honest everything was compared to what we have available today. The 4" Vixen Bresser refractor I had had a new price of close to £1000 in the mid 1980'sand that was for an achromat. The flourite apochromat version was around £2,500 

I think the breakthrough came when TAL bought in their TAL 100 refractor in the late 1990's which, on an EQ mount, cost £249.00 new. Much to my surprise the TAL performed as well as the Vixen had !

[SnakeyJ]

Well, I have brought it though certainly somewhat of a pig in a poke, and a rather dirty one at that.

There's nothing on the OTA to suggest Vixen manufacture, but I am told by Douglas's White's brother Reg that this was close to £ 3,000 when originally purchased in the mid 80's.    The dual axis mount control is marked with a V DD1.    The mount is much heavier/substantial than I had expected, it looks and feels very solid and smooth and probably on a par with the HEQ5 for weight, the counter balance bar is threaded 1"/25mm diameter!    Nice steel pillar mount, which is again unmarked but looks original.

Loads of photos here if John or anyone else can shed any light.

[John]

Interesting scope. I'm still convinced that it's of Vixen origin. Vixen also made newtonians for Celestron in the mid 1980's. Look at the focuser on the Celestron C-6 newtonian at the top of this web page:

http://www.telescopebluebook.com/reflector/celestron.htm

The article also mentions a Celestron SPC-8N model which may well be what you have, albeit under a different branding.

The 8" version seems to be rather rare - I came across one Celestron branded version for sale on the Astromart website in 2007:

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=476634

A rare and unusual scope !

[SnakeyJ]

John,

You've certainly hit the nail on the head with the C8N - excellent find on the Astromart site.    The sliding focuser, single vane spider, ota cap, handle are all identical to my considerably more used Bresser Optik badged example.    My tube rings do appear to be rather heavier but are also cast aluminium.     I believe the ota itself is actually a welded aluminium tube of approx 2mm thickness.

I'm pretty sure that the PM and SM will need to be re-coated and I think a complete strip, clean, re-spray and flock are on the cards for the ota (I'll have to see if it's possible to lift off and preserve the stickers).

[SnakeyJ]

I've found the scope and mount in the 1981 Vixen catalogue (Japanese copy) on page 6, right hand side.    It looks like the pillar mount is original and also rebadged Vixen from this era.    I can't translate Japanese, which is difficult as the page is scanned, but it although it shows the 150S model, there is annotation to say 200mm diameter and, I think the Vixen Model number was R-200S.

Actually it's even better in the 1985 Vixen catalogue at the same site on page 10.    It really would look the business with one of those 80mm F8 flourite refractors (FL-80S) riding piggyback on top!

Great site this - even has 1/2 of the Bresser Optik catalogue for 84-85, but unfortunately these pages don't cover my model!

[John]

Nice links Jake - I'll have a good browse 

[SnakeyJ]

Actually it's even better in the 1985 Vixen catalogue at the same site on page 10.    It really would look the business with one of those 80mm F8 flourite refractors (FL-80S) riding piggyback on top!

Looking at the manual closely, it seems that the mirrors were manufactured to 1/8 wave at least on the Vixen branded R-200S.

Mine looks rather dirty as is, though flash photography tends to make this rather worse than it appeared visually:

I'll take the primary and secondary out tomorrow for a closer inspection.    Certain that they will need a good clean and highly likely that a re-coat will be on the agenda.     Which is best Galvoptics or Orion Optiics?    OO seem to offer Hilux coating at 97% reflectivity, with Quartz overcoat.   Galvoptics don't seem to mention anything other than aluminium/SiO2, nor give reflectivity figures.    Either way, provided the mirror surfaces aren't damaged I think these should be significantly better than the Synta mirrors in my 200P.

Whilst the optics are out of the way I might as well start work giving everything a thorough clean - hopefully things will look considerably better once the surface grime is wiped away.

[SnakeyJ]

I've found the mount - its the Vixen Sensor mount, presumably designed to show case their early Skysensor goto - unfortunately the only definitive source I can find is in Japanese, but there's an interesting CN thread suggesting a conservative 31lbs (estimated 20% greater than the GP-D).      Some more detail here as well http://www.lx-850.com/?p=61

[John]

On the re-coating, Galvoptics are likely to be quite a bit less expensive than Orion Optics but the latter do have a long association with Vixen equipment and might be worth thinking about for such good quality optics.

I used to have one of the first generation Skysensor GOTO systems which was connected to the mount of my Bresser / Vixen refractor. The mount was the Vixen Super Polaris (SP) and excellent but I have to say that the Skysensor controller was about the least user friendly thing I've ever used. In the end I just used it as a dual axis motor controller.

[SnakeyJ]

On the re-coating, Galvoptics are likely to be quite a bit less expensive than Orion Optics but the latter do have a long association with Vixen equipment and might be worth thinking about for such good quality optics.

I used to have one of the first generation Skysensor GOTO systems which was connected to the mount of my Bresser / Vixen refractor. The mount was the Vixen Super Polaris (SP) and excellent but I have to say that the Skysensor controller was about the least user friendly thing I've ever used. In the end I just used it as a dual axis motor controller.

Thanks again John for your invaluable assistance and very long memory on this.    Once I've had a look at the mirrors I shall give OO a shout to discuss and get a proper quote for this - I also quite like the idea of getting a zygo report on the finished mirror, as this could be useful if I decide to sell the scope later on.

The skysensor looks pretty antiquated and the replacement starbook looks hideously expensive.    I do have the DD-1 dual axis controller, which looks pretty useable and did power up and work when I collected the scope.    For the time being it will be sufficient to get this up and working and pretty sure that this can be hacked for pulse guiding should I really feel a need.    I could look at a belt drive and arduino motor controller as an alternative, or I may decide to forgo the mount and make a dob base for some pure visual.   The sliding focuser will only accept 1.25" EPs, and although this may limit me for wider field views I wish to keep the ota original and 'unmolested' - excluding some new collimation knobs!

I've found the German equivalent of Astrobabey's service guide for the Vixen Sensor mount at Chris Peter's web site: http://www.cg-5.de/html/vixen_sensor.html   My german is limited though considerably better than my Japanese, fortunately Google Translate  does a fair job at rendering this in to almost intelligible english

There's little additional information on the mount, but quite a useful guide and nice to see that the DEC axis has a ball race and there are two needle roller bearings on the RA axis.

No doubt this is a very rare combination, high quality and an expensive item back in the mid eighties - although the scope has suffered some recent neglect, this appears to be cosmetic and I'm optimistic that this can be returned to good working order provided the mirror surfaces are ok.   Though might be a few weeks before I get my first light.

[John]

I'll look forward to your further reports on this scope Jake - it's nice to own something thats really unusual even though it will throw up challenges from time to time