Filroden

14 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

That's a super image of M45 Ken, I love the nebulosity, which looks even better on my main PC.

Indeed and thank you. I think it loses something for being converted into a lower quality jpeg for the web but the full Tiff image on a large screen is breath taking.

I think my PixInsight processing is not too dissimilar to the StarTools processes you describe. I still have to master masking as it's vital to being able to pinpoint which elements of the image to affect. I'm also learning how to use it's preview feature which allows me to apply processes to smaller parts of the image (reduces processing time) so I can tweak the settings until I find the result I like. I could probably push the data harder but I think I need to collect more before I really push the processing.

I think what's impressed me most with this new imaging setup is that I'm finally happy with star colours. It seems to be much easier to balance the colours when you can work on each of them individually. Also the fact that SGPro makes capturing the data so automated. Once I've resolved the issue with my wifi connection to the scope and I can re-centre the scope every 5-10 minutes, I should be set for some longer imaging sessions.

Next on my "to learn" list is whether binning the colour data improves things. In theory, I trade resolution (not so important for the colour channels) for improved sensitivity so I can take shorter colour subs to achieve the same effect (and therefore allow more time to collect luminosity, improving image quality/sharpness).

He's hopefully seeing red right now!

Well, my aborted attempt at IC1848 really was a mess. I didn't process the 30 minutes of data I collected without cooling but I've just run the 15 mins of lum and 5 mins each of RGB (all 30s subs) through PixInsight to see what I achieved. It rejected some of the frames (mainly in from the already minimal RGB). I ran out of time on this object as it got too high in the sky and my filter wheel was getting perilously close to the mount.

It's not pretty. There's some serious star trailing going on which I think is down to me letting PixInsight manage frame selection. I also had to heavily crop it (it was badly framed to begin with). Nonetheless, given this is effectively on 15 minutes of lum and colour data, it's not far behind what I captured with nearly 2 hours of a DSLR  I think this is a target I need to revisit next year once it's returned to lower altitudes (or I start doing early mornings rather than late nights).

I'm really glad I swapped to M45 for 30 minutes after this!

1 hour ago, The Admiral said:

I couldn't resist using the processing strategy in Steve's link, on my Heart Nebula image. I've got some way to go, but it seems to show a lot of promise. For a start, I can reduce the visual impact of the star field. Here's a comparison, first using the standard, less aggressive processing in Lightroom (which I haven't previously posted in this thread, though I did in my Gallery), and second, with the refined technique. As I say, early days. There's a bit of a stacking issue in the bottom LH corner that I should have cropped out in the second version, and sorry about the different sizes. Anyway, enough to get a preliminary handle on the way it works.

Ian

That's a lovely image. The reduced stars really makes the nebula pop. You've really captured some lovely detail in there.

12 minutes ago, SteveNickolls said:

That's very good going Ken, the nebulosity is very evident.

Best Regards,
Steve

I'm as pleased as punch with it. Definitely my best shot so far and it's only 30 x 30s of L and 10 x 30s for each of RGB. Can't wait for another clear night where I can get longer on a target.

Here goes: my first LRGB image using 30 second subs on the ZWO ASI1600MM at -20C with a gain of 300. Processed in PixInsight.

It's definitely much clearer - you can see the full extent of the Heart Nebula now. Wavelets are great for pulling apart an image into different structures and giving you the control to sharpen/noise reduce only those structures you really want to (whether it be the lowest wavelets to reduce noise or the higher wavelets to improve sharpness or contrast). It took me a while to wrap my head around wavelets (having first come across it processing planetary images) but now I think it's a great tool along with various masks.

10 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

A good start Ken! Nebulosity coming through on a single sub, should be good when it's all put together. I'm presuming this is M45 rather than IC1848?

As to your alignment woes, is it possible to use a much shorter capture time in order to get more of a Live View experience? Or is this a case for a Star Sense

Ian

Yes, I'd wasted so much time setting up then messing up the first 30 minutes of subs that I swapped to M45 given its a much brighter target and I was running out of time/stamins. I did capture some subs of IC1848 which I will also process but given the run was short I don't know what to expect.

SGPro seems to only allow a minimum of 1 second in its framing and focus module. I did finally manage to align using SGPro and the handset, it just takes a lot more patience. I need to figure what's wrong with the wifi though, as using the handset is a pain compared to controlling the scope from the iPad using SkySafari.

I have yet to take flats (scope/camera is sat in the lounge ready for me to run them) so my initial integration suffers from vignetting.

Here's a single, bias/dark calibrated, L sub of 30s with no processing other than to convert the fits file to a jpeg (first image). I also applied a very quick stretch with levels and curves (second image). I've applied no noise reduction, etc.

Now off to take the flats.

You just know it's going to be one of those nights. It's clear, the wind has settled. The scope is set up. The camera is working. I even managed to get it focused using SGPro - not easy when you're fine tuning and waiting a second for the image to update. Nonetheless, I have to say this is the best focus I've ever achieved. Stars looks *sharp* on the screen.

And then it all went wrong...

It's almost impossible to do a three star alignment using SGPro and 1 second image capture. I need to find a better "live view". I persevered though. Until the fourth failed attempt and I decided to get the DSLR and use that and BackyardEOS to do the alignment. Success first time!

And then it all went wrong again...

The wifi on the mount decided to bug out and I couldn't control the mount from the iPad. I tried everything, even powering the mount down (knowing I would have to realign it). I tried connecting via SkySafari, Celestron's own app, through the iPhone and the iPad. None of them would connect. I finally gave up and got the old hand remote and tried to remember how to use that.

Anyway, a quick two star alignment later and I was centred on IC1848 and taking my first 30 second L sub.

I'm now running a sequence of 10x LRGB at 30 seconds and I'll keep repeating that for as long as I have the stamina (probably recentering after each sequence).

I have to day, I don't know if I've captured any nebulosity but the star field looks much nicer that anything I've taken before. Fingers crossed!

P.S. Remember to plug the power into the camera's cooling. That's 30 mins of subs taken at 11C rather than -20C.

31 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

At the back of my mind I think I've read of a stacker that can account for different scaling (or zoom settings). PI doesn't cope with that does it?

I think it might but I've never needed to find out yet. It can cope with mosaics (but so does DSS). I think it's down to alignment (both PI and DSS do this) and whether it has a function to rescale if the images can be aligned but are of different scales. I can't think of a case where I could test it given my equipment until I can set up some wide area imagery with my stock Canon zoom lens (but that's another project once I've learnt how to use the camera on the scope!).

10 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

PS Just to add, I can't see that lens distortion would cause this, as all the frames would be distorted equally.

Normally that would be try but because our mounts introduce field rotation, won't the distortion rotate too? But I think you hit the nail on the head, it's possibly the zoom causing image scale. I'm not sure whether DSS can align and rescale subs? I've never had to merge images from two different image trains (effectively what a slight change of zoom creates) but I know it's possible.

Just now, Nigel G said:

Ken. I'm really looking forward to seeing an image from your new CCD  probably almost as much as you. This might make me start saving some ready's.

I found a stack from a couple of weeks ago I had forgotten about, I took this while waiting for another DSO to rise above my roof top.

A nice easy one to process,

M2. 30 minutes of 30s lights no dark or flats but 50 bias. 150p DSS & StarTools.

Nige.

Weather is looking promising tonight. I need to measure my spacing on the camera from the reducer. i don't have the spacers I need to get it perfect but I'm hoping I can get it close enough to test it tonight. I know I can reach focus (tested on the refractor already). If the wind dies down, then I think I'll try for the Soul again - maybe 60 mins of L and 20 mins each for RGB (bin2). Given the extra sensitivity, that should be more data than I've previously captured using the DSLR though it would mean having to learn how to upscale binned data. I'm more scared about the processing than the capture!

There's something I love about globular clusters. I also love that you can just start to see some diffraction spikes on some of your brighter stars - something I love to see on star fields (not so much on when the focus of the image is a nebula or galaxy).

Your Soul is definitely more Elvis than Baby! I still find it amazing what you can capture in such short exposures. I definitely want to try more wider frame imaging.

There's something weird going on in the Heart. It's almost like DSS isn't aligning the frames right on the left hand side and it's introducing a noticeable blur. I don't think it's our normal "friend' of field rotation. I wonder if that's lens distortion? Did you have the aperture wide open? If so, it might be better to drop it down a couple of stops. If not, do you have either Lightroom or Photoshop? Both can "undistorted" lenses. In Lightroom you tell it which lens you are using (it can often auto detect it from the RAW metadata) and it warps the image based on known distortion models for that lens. Unfortunately, you have to do this on each sub individually then re-save/export each file. I'm not sure if other photo packages can do the same (it's a feature of Adobe Camera RAW module which is included in both Lightroom and Photoshop). You would probably have to do this with lights, darks and flats, as they would all have the same distortion. (I'm out of my depth on this part having not used wide angle camera lenses yet)

Just now, SteveNickolls said:

Unsure how many flat frames and dark frames you already have but x50 of each will be fine. Again unsure what you do to combine when you have different light frame lengths as I have never tried that approach. Good luck trying. Do let us know how you get on.

Cheers,
Steve

If I remember right, DSS has tabs you can load your different length subs into and it works it out from there. In PixInsight it scales the darks to match the lights (so long as the dark is at least as long as the longest light) as dark current should scale linearly. 

I've just taken a set of 120s darks as that covers me for anything I can do with my mount. 

45 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

I look forward to seeing what a proper astro camera can produce Ken.

I'm not sure I'd like to dispense with an all-in-one unit though, and the thought of doing LRGB doesn't excite me! Good luck with your new venture. There have been some interesting reports of micro-PCs being strapped to the OTA to avoid issues with laptops being used out of doors and to minimize a trailing cable jungle.

Ian

I pretty much have those issues with the DSLR. I use a laptop with a 3m USB cable as I found it easier to focus and frame on the laptop screen than on the camera's live view. I found my mount goto was much more accurate using the laptop, helping me centre objects first time.

I'm going to try a new set up now the nights are getting colder. The new camera needs power for cooling so I only have one extra cable to deal with. I can set up the laptop in the kitchen and both the USB and the power cable should reach the scope easily from there. I only have an easterly view from the garden anyway, so I don't have to worry about cable wrap. I also figure that the increased sensitivity of mono should mean I spend about the same time capturing LRGB as I did with OSC. I also don't need to pause between subs, whereas with the DSLR I would build in a 6 second pause to allow the mirror to lock up and for vibrations to settle.

I'm more worried about the processing. Calibrating, aligning and processing four images rather than one just means I have more opportunities to miss something or mess up something!

Anyway, still 100% cloud cover atm though it's not forecast to clear for another couple of hours. Scope is by the backdoor ready.

24 minutes ago, Nigel G said:

Had a chance yet ??

Not yet. I had a really clear night on Sunday but I'd just returned from a 300 mile journey and hadn't tried the camera in daylight so I missed the opportunity. I now have it working and tested. I'm having to learn a new capture software (having loved BackyardEOS) and it's certainly slower to find focus but I have a set of bias and darks all ready captured.

Tonight could be clear but they are forecasting very strong winds so it's 50/50 for tonight. If I do get out I may go for the Soul again (as a comparison) or for the Pinwheel (given it's both low and to the East). If the wind is kind and I have the stamina, I really want to image M45. It was one of my first targets and I got nothing but stars the first time so now I've had much more practice I'm hoping I can capture something more.

Hi Nige

Here's my attempt. I also struggled with the gradient and because I couldn't effectively remove all of it, I was left with a lot of residual noise that I couldn't remove without losing signal. There is definitely a lot of colour in the image and you can clearly see it in the Veil. I think with flats (and possibly without using darks) you may reduce some of the effects.

I think the Veil is too high for me to image right now, but it certainly looks a nice target. I hadn't thought to include it on the list.

35 minutes ago, The Admiral said:

A nice crisp wide-field view Steve. Is the 'open group' of stars at the 10 o'clock position from the double cluster also an open cluster? I've looked on Stellarium and it doesn't seem to have a name though.

Ian

I believe it's Stock 2, an open cluster (from SkySafari).

4 hours ago, The Admiral said:

Hi guys, this is my first serious imaging that I've managed to attempt this side of Summer, and even then the clouds rolled in before I had finished! Still, up to that point the viewing seemed pretty good. I've been waiting a long time to have a good go at M31 (everyone's favourite), since my miserable attempt a year back when I was trying to image through a spotting 'scope (https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/252380-messing-about-with-m31/#comment-2751013). The mount behaved impeccably, and in the end I managed to stack 152 x 30s frames, together with flats, darks and bias. I'm pretty chuffed with what I managed to capture, though I need to refine the StarTools processing to get rid of the pink-ish core to the galaxy - that colour module again! Consider it a work in progress. The usual gear, Altair Wave 102mm triplet, TS Photoline 2" 0.79x reducer/flatener (spacing not optimised), Fuji X-T1, and Nexstar 6/8SE mount. Stacked in DSS, fiddled with in ST, and sort of finished in Lightroom.

Being predominantly in the East during imaging, it did mean that the rotation was pretty minimal. DSS showed only ~5° rotation during the whole imaging session.

 

Ian, that's a stunning image. The stars are incredibly tight and the detail you've captured is amazing. It just goes to show what's possible! The only thing I might have changed is to make the galaxy core closer to white by either dialing back on the yellow in Photoshop or Lightroom, or making the white balance a little cooler. However, you've got great colour everywhere else in the image.

1 hour ago, Stedi said:

I guess this is as good a thread as any to share my first serious imaging attempt

 

59x10s ISO400 subs stacked in IRIS with median option. I used Bias/Offset frames, can't remember if I ended up using dark frames or not for this. No Flats though and it shows

Mount: SW Allview, Telescope: SW Startravel 102, Camera: Canon 1000D controlled with BYEOS

RGB was corrected in IRIS and the final stretching was done in some old PS I had laying around.

Here is the link to the Tiff that is rgb corrected in IRIS but nothing else if you want to have a go at it.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AlIly8wmzetAhk4Ia4Fr6eI4trWP

I wish I'd had such a good first attempt! I can definitely see the nebulosity though it needs some more processing to remove the vignette. Once that background is gone I think it will be much clearer to see. And that's just a total of 10 minutes of integration time. Imagine what you're going to achieve with an hour.

I apologise now to anyone who might have had a clear forecast tonight. I've just received my new camera. I've treated myself to one of the new ZWO ASI 1600 mono cooled cameras. I figure it removes the noise problems I suffer from using the DSLR (I can make darks for set point temperatures now, plus I can cool the thing to -30C). I also figure that as a mono camera I can image more in our limited capture windows - a huge boon I'm hoping. So I'm going to be trying LRGB imaging on AltAz, hopefully within the next week/month/year/century.

Isn't it great to always be able to go back to older data and reprocess it with newer tools/knowledge?

I'm still not convinced by StarTool's treatment of colour (not that I do better with other tools) but you've made a good improvement on the noise with a much enhanced contrast.

4 minutes ago, SilverAstro said:

I did a quicky two stacks of four and stacked the resulting pair in DSS, it was rubbish compared to a simple stack of the eight !

I was not sure if I had blundered and that it was supposed to work,, or not !  I couldnt decide on the maths of adding two lots of already RMS-ed noise so wondered how the going-deep many-hours people managed, do they re-stack all from the start each time

 

I suspect they have to stack much less as they are taking 10min subs, etc. We can only do short subs so we have to stack many more. We get quickly into diminishing returns for noise reduction.

I don't think you can add more subs to an already stacked set. I suspect DSS would give each sub equal weight so one image combining over 200 subs would carry no more weight than a single 30s sub. PixInsight allows you to weight subs but I also think the math wouldn't work effectively. Unfortunately you'll need to restock every time.

Can you save calibrated lights and just stack those? That might save processing bias, darks and flats for older subs.

Here's another attempt. I think I've lost a little of the emission trying to reduce the noise but I think I've got more detail in the fuzzy above it.

i separated the image into its RGB components and treated each with varying degrees of levels/curves then recombined to a full colour image. I definitely prefer the star colours now so I might have to try that same technique on my own images.