Telescopes in Schools

[Glasspusher]

During the late 70's and 80's I ran an astronomy club at my school, lots of interest with quite a few students taking and passing the 'O' level, as it was then. Things gradually changed in education and I eventually had to give up my club due to a massive increase in paperwork and meetings. Clubs of all types, and sporting activities, suffered in the same way. The current obsession with measuring performance has left little time for 'non essential' activities. Let's hope some common sense will eventually prevail!

John

[Dob]

Hi Dob!

Wow, Croatia, eh? (Your English is excellent, by the way! ) That situation with your school sounds very sad. It makes me wonder how many perfectly good instruments are packed away in boxes in closets, garages, and basements because someone has "gotten bored" or otherwise lost interest.

Do you have access to a telescope of your own now? It would certainly be nice to see you start an observers group in your own area. Most clubs are started by someone just like you who decides to get something going out of their own interest and passion for astronomy.

Is it possible for you to take out a small add in a local paper? Offer to get together in the local library, perhaps? Even a coffee shop will do to get started! You may have more potential astronomy friends in your area than you know.

Dan

Hi Dan.

My English is ok, nothing spectacular but still far better then with most of people i know.I guess that's the benefit of computer games, movies, and books in English.

Yeah, very sad situation since Dubrovnik is the hometown of Marin Getaldić and Ruđer Bošković, famous Croatian scientists.And yet we have no astronomy club.

But good thing is, progress is being made and I hope we are getting astronomy club here soon.In January this year we had organized observings in celebration of 300th birthday od Ruđer Bošković, and my top-secret informants are telling me similar things will be organised in Autumn.

[inksmithy]

Having read this thread I have to say that I have quite a contrary view to most. Given the financial situation schools find themselves dealing with these days (in the UK at least) I would far rather they focus on the core elements of the curriculum, rather than looking to expand into other areas. Whilst astronomy is a fascinating hobby I don't believe there is the expertise, the funding, or at primary school level the need to go beyond the basics which I understand already are included within the science modules being studied.

To my mind there are more important subjects and skills that kids need to learn.

While I can relate to that point of view to a certain extent, if you look at it from the other side of the coin, we have maths, science, chemistry, physics, history and language all stemming from the study of astronomy.

And, as has been pointed out, it can be carried out using nothing more complex than an inexpensive pair of binoculars and an internet connection for research.

As far as teaching expertise goes, you may have a point. Not an insurmountable one, but a point nonetheless.

Personally, I have massive problems with the way the schools are being financed - in times of financial hardship, it seems to make more sense to me to make a long term investment in education, rather than cutting it. It seems to me that cutting education means a direct increase in illiteracy and drive.

Alan

[Ad Astra]

Having read this thread I have to say that I have quite a contrary view to most. Given the financial situation schools find themselves dealing with these days (in the UK at least) I would far rather they focus on the core elements of the curriculum, rather than looking to expand into other areas. Whilst astronomy is a fascinating hobby I don't believe there is the expertise, the funding, or at primary school level the need to go beyond the basics which I understand already are included within the science modules being studied.

To my mind there are more important subjects and skills that kids need to learn.

I can't say that view matches with my experience. To achieve mastery of the basics, you must go beyond them and apply what you've learned. Applied sciences such as astronomy, chemistry, and physics give children a context in which to make sense of the basics - and they convince them that the basic skills aren't all just a bunch of drivel that the adults force them to learn for no good reason.

I went away from "drill and kill" basic instruction to the "Apply or Die!" model years ago. My students complete college degrees at a far higher rate (over the last 25 years, 93% who have two years with me doing B- or better work finish college compared to 50% completion rate for the entire University of California system).

I think we need things like astronomy in schools more today than ever. It's time we stopped gearing school to the academically mediocre and sacrificing the best among our children in order to give the remedial "just one more chance!" On the flip side of that, we also need to offer decent career training to those who aren't going to University instead of insisting that "everyone goes to college!!!" like we do in the States with GW Bush's brilliant "No Child Left Behind" act. But that's another story altogether....

Dan

[Ad Astra]

During the late 70's and 80's I ran an astronomy club at my school, lots of interest with quite a few students taking and passing the 'O' level, as it was then. Things gradually changed in education and I eventually had to give up my club due to a massive increase in paperwork and meetings. Clubs of all types, and sporting activities, suffered in the same way. The current obsession with measuring performance has left little time for 'non essential' activities. Let's hope some common sense will eventually prevail!

John

Hear, hear!

Well said, John!

DB

[Ad Astra]

Hi Dan.

My English is ok, nothing spectacular but still far better then with most of people i know.I guess that's the benefit of computer games, movies, and books in English.

Yeah, very sad situation since Dubrovnik is the hometown of Marin Getaldić and Ruđer Bošković, famous Croatian scientists.And yet we have no astronomy club.

But good thing is, progress is being made and I hope we are getting astronomy club here soon.In January this year we had organized observings in celebration of 300th birthday od Ruđer Bošković, and my top-secret informants are telling me similar things will be organised in Autumn.

Friend,

If I can be of help in any way, please PM me and let me know. You are doing wonderful things for your community and your country. You should be very proud of yourself!!!

Dan

[twotter]

I can't say that view matches with my experience. To achieve mastery of the basics, you must go beyond them and apply what you've learned. Applied sciences such as astronomy, chemistry, and physics give children a context in which to make sense of the basics - and they convince them that the basic skills aren't all just a bunch of drivel that the adults force them to learn for no good reason.

I went away from "drill and kill" basic instruction to the "Apply or Die!" model years ago. My students complete college degrees at a far higher rate (over the last 25 years, 93% who have two years with me doing B- or better work finish college compared to 50% completion rate for the entire University of California system).

I think we need things like astronomy in schools more today than ever. It's time we stopped gearing school to the academically mediocre and sacrificing the best among our children in order to give the remedial "just one more chance!" On the flip side of that, we also need to offer decent career training to those who aren't going to University instead of insisting that "everyone goes to college!!!" like we do in the States with GW Bush's brilliant "No Child Left Behind" act. But that's another story altogether....

Dan

I did say I hold a contrary view.

Looking back at my post I also mentioned 'primary school'. My daughter (she's 9) currently attends our village primary school and will do so up to the age of 11, when she will move on to a 'secondary school' until at least the age of 16. She may then move on to 6th Form studies, at the same school or perhaps a dedicated 6th Form College, and perhaps go on to University, or instead may go on to vocational training of some kind.

Her current primary school has 90 pupils, 5 teachers and 8 teaching assistants. I visited your MSJC website and couldn't help but notice the huge differences - in pupil ages, student numbers, courses offered (including wine making, fire technology and real estate????), obviously staff numbers and budget too.

The phrase about comparing apples with oranges comes to mind!

Our school has limited resources and a very tight budget. I still think there is no need to go beyond what they already learn about astronomy and, with respect, I don't think your experience, previously mentioned, is closely enough related to the realities of life in a UK primary school today, to be in a better position to comment. Perhaps a better target for you would be our secondary schools & 6th Form Colleges?

[Skylook123]

Here comes a stream of consciousness, due to late arriving to this thread.

First, Ad Astra and I have often communicated away from these venues, sharing a bit of the passion for opening the skies for folks who may not have had the opportunity to look up, both physically and metaphorically. We share many similarities; in the past I've been an assistant professor at a university, and my wife was a long time physics, chemistry, math, and earth sciences teacher at the high school level. Nowadays I am putting the skies in front of all ages through outreaches.

To briefly address Dan's original questions, I am 50 years past school attendance and there was not a whit of astronomical education of any kind that I can recall. All of my astronomical interest and knowledge has been self generated.

Now, what am I doing about sharing the sky? Well, I am blessed to live in the southwestern United States, where the skies are an open library of wonder to visit. My club, the 375 member Tucson Amateur Astronomy Association, has, as one of it's core missions, supporting education in astronomy through active participation. In any month, 30 to 40 of us will do night outreach activities in 10 to 15 schools of all levels. I, myself, do around eight of these.

Away from the schools, as my signature reveals, I also coordinate the annual Grand Canyon Star Party, where amateur astronomers from around North America will gather each year for eight nights of public outreach. On any night from 40 to 60 of us will set up telescopes and binoculars on both the North and South Rims of the Grand Canyon. And tonight six of us are starting what we hope will be a quarterly event at a local state park.

So, what has this to do with astronomy in the schools? Not sure! I do know that in our local events at the schools, the reactions are always very uplifting. And at most schools we attend, the students are often prepared by their teachers with questions to answer, knowledge to acquire, exploration to begin. Our club does this adventure sort of from a different dimension than Dan's most excellant program; we open the broad topic for exploration and give a taste, then move on to the next school. I have been doing outreach here now for about 15 years, and it is very uplifting to return to a school after a year or two away, and have an older student make it a point to say that what one of us did a few years ago made a difference. The little victories.

We are doing what we can, one school at a time. I am just returning from a 1500 mile round robin of dropping off a rebuilt telescope for my grandchildren and visiting the Grand Canyon to get prepared for this year's activities. At the Grand Canyon only for two days, one night, I was approached at cash registers and on the walkabout by people who remembered prior years, and in emails I've learned that at least three of our visitors returned home from vacation and started science clubs at their schools.

Finally, one of our astronomers last year had never done an outreach before. I convinced her to bring her telescope on her vaction trip. She came for two nights, stayed for all eight, sent a tremendously positive email, and for the last year she has done public school outreach in her home state. She says she never knew how much joy and wonder she could bring.

What do our schools have? Frankly, not much; I understand perfectly where Twotter is coming from. But the schools do have US. WE are part of the opening of the skies. Each one, TEACH ONE!! Dan is doing the heavy lifting - but you just never know what one of our drive-by efforts will bring, what seed it will plant. The alternative is do nothing, and curse the ignorance. I prefer to plant the seeds.

[Ad Astra]

Hello Twotter,

Dear friend, there was certainly no disrespect intended in my comments! And no, I certainly wasn't clear that you were referring to kids in elementary school (I sure that was just me being thick, as usual!) Most of my efforts have been focused on children from ages 11 and up - at least as far as changing the way science is taught, anyway.

In early years, you are quite correct, basic reading, writing, communication and arithmetic - and probably an introduction to computers would be my choice of focus. Children need to be literate, numerate, and well socialized; Elementary schools do best when they stick close to these core needs. But after that, we need to start introducing kids to science - and my friend, science is a verb! That is the little bit that so many schools fall down on.

I am aware that schools don't have much money, many don't have any; and I teach in an area where poverty is rampant, and many of my students don't have proper housing, clothes or nutrition each day - certainly not apart from what they get at school. I appreciate your exploring my college's website - quite a 'Dog's Breakfast' isn't it? The "Community College" in California has a ridiculously broad mission. We not only have a low-cost core academic program for those hoping to go on to a proper university and finish a degree, but we also offer classes for adults (continuing education is what its called here), and job training classes for those out of work, or hoping to improve their careers. In teaching introductory astronomy (a 'physical science' is required for many students), I get a great cross-section of all of these people. It keeps my work interesting, and it keeps me close to the 'beginner community', as more than a few of my students are regular blokes who thought it might be fun to learn about astronomy and maybe get a telescope at some point when they can afford it.

Apart from my work in astronomy education, I also spend an awful lot of time pushing 'Low-Tech' physics education in schools here in the States. Many schools don't teach physics at all here, because they feel the program is too expensive. I work at developing physics activities that are engineering/design based, and cost pennies per student (literally). I am very sensitive to the problems of school funding as it impacts science, believe me. I've seen good years when I could buy loads of new equipment, and other years when stuff from the departments (including copy machines and lab equipment) were sold off to meet daily operating expenses for the school.

I don't mean to poke a stick at anyone's efforts or local schools, and certainly not the hard working teachers and concerned parents like you and me whose daily efforts keep the whole thing from going off the rails entirely. I just want astronomers and hobbyists like us to remember that when we have a telescope, we have the ability to enrich much more than our own lives. Sometimes, we get lost in the beauty and wonder at the eyepiece and forget that for awhile; or maybe it might never have occurred to someone looking about here on SGL who was relatively new to the hobby.

Again, apologies if I seem brusk or pushy - I'm just too passionate about this sort of thing for my own good most times.

Cheers,

Dan

[Ad Astra]

I love it when Jim says he's going to 'ramble on for a bit', and then gold comes out. All I have to say Jim, is you are one of my inspirations!

I gotta make it out to your Grand Canyon Star Party this year if I can, if nothing else so we can finally shake hands and say 'hello!' Oh, and I might be persuaded to bring the Apomax along....

Dan

Here comes a stream of consciousness, due to late arriving to this thread.

First, Ad Astra and I have often communicated away from these venues, sharing a bit of the passion for opening the skies for folks who may not have had the opportunity to look up, both physically and metaphorically. We share many similarities; in the past I've been an assistant professor at a university, and my wife was a long time physics, chemistry, math, and earth sciences teacher at the high school level. Nowadays I am putting the skies in front of all ages through outreaches.

To briefly address Dan's original questions, I am 50 years past school attendance and there was not a whit of astronomical education of any kind that I can recall. All of my astronomical interest and knowledge has been self generated.

Now, what am I doing about sharing the sky? Well, I am blessed to live in the southwestern United States, where the skies are an open library of wonder to visit. My club, the 375 member Tucson Amateur Astronomy Association, has, as one of it's core missions, supporting education in astronomy through active participation. In any month, 30 to 40 of us will do night outreach activities in 10 to 15 schools of all levels. I, myself, do around eight of these.

Away from the schools, as my signature reveals, I also coordinate the annual Grand Canyon Star Party, where amateur astronomers from around North America will gather each year for eight nights of public outreach. On any night from 40 to 60 of us will set up telescopes and binoculars on both the North and South Rims of the Grand Canyon. And tonight six of us are starting what we hope will be a quarterly event at a local state park.

So, what has this to do with astronomy in the schools? Not sure! I do know that in our local events at the schools, the reactions are always very uplifting. And at most schools we attend, the students are often prepared by their teachers with questions to answer, knowledge to acquire, exploration to begin. Our club does this adventure sort of from a different dimension than Dan's most excellant program; we open the broad topic for exploration and give a taste, then move on to the next school. I have been doing outreach here now for about 15 years, and it is very uplifting to return to a school after a year or two away, and have an older student make it a point to say that what one of us did a few years ago made a difference. The little victories.

We are doing what we can, one school at a time. I am just returning from a 1500 mile round robin of dropping off a rebuilt telescope for my grandchildren and visiting the Grand Canyon to get prepared for this year's activities. At the Grand Canyon only for two days, one night, I was approached at cash registers and on the walkabout by people who remembered prior years, and in emails I've learned that at least three of our visitors returned home from vacation and started science clubs at their schools.

Finally, one of our astronomers last year had never done an outreach before. I convinced her to bring her telescope on her vaction trip. She came for two nights, stayed for all eight, sent a tremendously positive email, and for the last year she has done public school outreach in her home state. She says she never knew how much joy and wonder she could bring.

What do our schools have? Frankly, not much; I understand perfectly where Twotter is coming from. But the schools do have US. WE are part of the opening of the skies. Each one, TEACH ONE!! Dan is doing the heavy lifting - but you just never know what one of our drive-by efforts will bring, what seed it will plant. The alternative is do nothing, and curse the ignorance. I prefer to plant the seeds.