Next step on the journey

[herne]

Short version - new mount or new camera.

Long version - I have a nice, portable, wide field set up now which I enjoy very much.  This consists of a William Optics Z61ii scope, modified Canon 700D, Az-GTi mount, ASI Air pro + iPad, mini guide scope + camera.  I’m now looking to move into a second set up for more detailed studies and capture fainter objects.  Due to not having bottomless pockets, this needs to be done in stages so the question is what to buy first as I’d like to be able to use whatever is bought first in the mean time rather than have it sit in a corner gathering dust until the next purchase is made.

Buying a new scope first is out as I’m already pushing the weight limits of my Az Gti.  Which leaves me with mount first or new camera first.  With a view to the size of any potential new scope (130 or 150pds, or a larger refractor) I’m looking at an HEQ5 Pro.  Camera wise it would be an OSC or mono + filters (probably the latter).

I’m blowing hot and cold on this - one day it’s the camera, the next it’s the mount.  On balance I’m leaning more towards the mount first because, as capable as the little AZ Gti is, I could probably push my existing imaging further with a more solid base.  Plus it may give me greater flexibility when it comes to the next purchase.

I’m probably answering my own question here but thought I’d throw it open to suggestion.  And hope I win the lottery in the meantime 😀.

[barbulo]

Mount. A sturdy one that might permit you to evolve in your AP journey. 
BTW, budget?

[ONIKKINEN]

28 minutes ago, herne said:

 Due to not having bottomless pockets, this needs to be done in stages so the question is what to buy first as I’d like to be able to use whatever is bought first in the mean time rather than have it sit in a corner gathering dust until the next purchase is made.

The mount it is then. No contest on this at all in my opinion.

You cant really overmount a scope so getting the best mount you can with your budget would be the best choice. You can keep using your current setup with the better mount and get somewhat sharper images due to much better guiding.

Does depend on your total budget a bit though, if you have enough to spare you could buy a mount + something else, but just guessing since you did not mention.

[herne]

25 minutes ago, barbulo said:

BTW, budget?

 

1 minute ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Does depend on your total budget a bit though

Different budget for different items.  A new mono camera + filters costs more than an HEQ5 Pro and a reflector such as a 130 or 150pds, but that (for me) doesn't mean the budget is transferrable.  So to my mind I'd say (ball park) up to £1000 for a mount, more (say £1500) for a mono camera and filters - or around £1000 for an OSC.  Telescope budget is as yet undecided but would be less for a 130/150pds than for a larger refractor.

And with regards the scope, I'm as yet undecided on going down the reflector or refractor route.  Neither would ever be really large and heavy so an HEQ5 Pro should be more than sufficient for future gear.  A 130/150 would be well within weight limits as would something like a StellaMira 90mm triplet or WO 91mm triplet for example.

44 minutes ago, barbulo said:

Mount.

 

20 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

The mount it is then

What I was leaning towards but sometimes you just need to go through the logic 👍.

[SmokeyJoe]

Have the same dilemma myself,  decided on mount first, (eq6-r) then I can hang pretty much what I want off of it.   Going to take me a while to save my pennies so I'll probably change my mind a dozen or so times between now and then. 

[herne]

8 minutes ago, SmokeyJoe said:

Have the same dilemma myself,  decided on mount first, (eq6-r) then I can hang pretty much what I want off of it.   Going to take me a while to save my pennies so I'll probably change my mind a dozen or so times between now and then. 

Exactly my thoughts, but at least you have the foundation in place 👍.

[ONIKKINEN]

1 hour ago, herne said:

 

Different budget for different items.  A new mono camera + filters costs more than an HEQ5 Pro and a reflector such as a 130 or 150pds, but that (for me) doesn't mean the budget is transferrable.  So to my mind I'd say (ball park) up to £1000 for a mount, more (say £1500) for a mono camera and filters - or around £1000 for an OSC.  Telescope budget is as yet undecided but would be less for a 130/150pds than for a larger refractor.

And with regards the scope, I'm as yet undecided on going down the reflector or refractor route.  Neither would ever be really large and heavy so an HEQ5 Pro should be more than sufficient for future gear.  A 130/150 would be well within weight limits as would something like a StellaMira 90mm triplet or WO 91mm triplet for example.

 

What I was leaning towards but sometimes you just need to go through the logic 👍.

I would skip the 5 class mounts and go straight to an EQ6 class one if you are considering spending that much money in total. Youll thank yourself later and leave some breathing room for growing the setup.

I have an AZ-EQ6 with an 8" newtonian and the mount is not overkill at all even though im at less than half its rated capacity.

[herne]

1 hour ago, ONIKKINEN said:

I would skip the 5 class mounts and go straight to an EQ6 class one if you are considering spending that much money in total. Youll thank yourself later and leave some breathing room for growing the setup.

I have an AZ-EQ6 with an 8" newtonian and the mount is not overkill at all even though im at less than half its rated capacity.

I hear what you’re saying but you have to stop chasing the rabbit at some point 😂.

I’m in no rush so I’ll see what crops up in the classifieds given the budget.

[Elp]

I've got a similar setup to you. I probably went it the wrong way but went mono camera, 130pds then mount. If you want a significant difference go 130pds first you'll be surprised in the difference in light gathering capability, for example I find it difficult looking directly at the moon with it as it's so bright with the Z61 I can do the same with no issue, I have a decent altaz mount so at least I can use it for visual if it doesn't perform on the azgti (your main issue will be wind if you try it on that, you'd need a sturdy tripod as it widens the area of centre of gravity).

What's the max length subs you are taking at the moment and your typical guiding RMS?

Edited May 4, 2022 by Elp

[herne]

11 minutes ago, Elp said:

What's the max length subs you are taking at the moment and your typical guiding RMS?

Off the top of my head I couldn't say the RMS.  For subs I typically stick to 3mins guided - I have done loads of test shots of 5mins which look perfectly fine although I haven't pushed that for an all night session.  For reference below is a recent shot of the Rosette Nebula - 59x3min subs + Darks frames only using my DSLR and AZ Gti.  The processing needs some more work (stacked and processed in Siril, with a little tinkering in Photoshop) and I should probably stop being lazy and add flat frames, but still quite a nice pic.  Bear in mind I'm not looking to replace the AZ GTi, the new mount would be for a second set up.

14 minutes ago, Elp said:

your main issue will be wind if you try it on that, you'd need a sturdy tripod as it widens the area of centre of gravity

Yeh exactly.  I'm already pushing the weight limit (I can actually hear the AZ GTi creak a bit as it tracks on occasion) so I'm really not putting anything larger on it.

 

[Elp]

Great image, atm I don't think you'll see a major difference with an astro cam, the largest benefit I found was it was a little less noisy, a tiny bit sharper but mine had a smaller pixel size than the dslr but not a prime match to the z61, and obviously being able to shoot darks during the day maximises your imaging time. If you go mono you can also shoot through light pollution using narrowband filters but they'll set you back a significant added percentage of the camera or even equal to or exceeding it's cost.

If you want to shoot fainter larger aperture is the way to go, unless you are able to go to a dark site which will be of better benefit. Larger scope means larger mount so probably your first port of call. But, a camera you can use straight away, so the choice is ultimately up to you. Buy used and you can save loads.

[Lee_P]

7 minutes ago, Elp said:

If you want to shoot fainter larger aperture is the way to go, unless you are able to go to a dark site which will be of better benefit. Larger scope means larger mount so probably your first port of call. But, a camera you can use straight away, so the choice is ultimately up to you. Buy used and you can save loads.

I disagree, you can shoot fainter with longer integration times. These were all shot with a 72mm refractor from a Bortle 8 city centre.

As for the original question, I'd probably go with a new mount as you're wanting a second set-up that will likely be heavier. If you were content to stick with your Z61ii then I might actually suggest a modern astrocamera, as then you can shoot short subs which takes pressure off your mount to perform. (Not sure if you can dither with your current set-up though; you want to be doing that, really). Also, many astrocameras can be cooled to specific temperatures, which means you can make libraries of calibration frames. Very useful!

[Elp]

You can but aperture increase will immediately provide a greater ability to resolve faint magnitude. I've only tested this myself visually as I can't normally see DSO clusters very well with my Z61 from bortle 7, with my 130pds they were there but very faint. A camera of course takes images over time so is better at capturing faint stuff, and generally the longer the better to a point.

I know what you mean though, I've faced reality myself and having to spread projects over many months to finish them.

Awesome images by the way.

[herne]

2 hours ago, Lee_P said:

I disagree, you can shoot fainter with longer integration times. These were all shot with a 72mm refractor from a Bortle 8 city centre.

As for the original question, I'd probably go with a new mount as you're wanting a second set-up that will likely be heavier. If you were content to stick with your Z61ii then I might actually suggest a modern astrocamera, as then you can shoot short subs which takes pressure off your mount to perform. (Not sure if you can dither with your current set-up though; you want to be doing that, really). Also, many astrocameras can be cooled to specific temperatures, which means you can make libraries of calibration frames. Very useful!

Thanks Lee, I’ve seen your blog before. Stunning images but I have to say that for me your Iris Nebula and it’s dust lanes is the pick of the bunch.  That’s not an easy target, especially from your city centre location.

Your point about shorter subs confirms the decision I made earlier - I bought an OSC (ASI 533MC Pro).  I know my little mount can already give me a stable platform (relatively speaking) for decent length of sub and, as you say, an OSC can help relieve possible pressure there through shorter subs / longer integration.  Dithering is something to look into in future for sure though.

Thanks for input all, it helped clarify my thoughts 👍.

[Lee_P]

8 hours ago, herne said:

Thanks Lee, I’ve seen your blog before. Stunning images but I have to say that for me your Iris Nebula and it’s dust lanes is the pick of the bunch.  That’s not an easy target, especially from your city centre location.

Your point about shorter subs confirms the decision I made earlier - I bought an OSC (ASI 533MC Pro).  I know my little mount can already give me a stable platform (relatively speaking) for decent length of sub and, as you say, an OSC can help relieve possible pressure there through shorter subs / longer integration.  Dithering is something to look into in future for sure though.

Thanks for input all, it helped clarify my thoughts 👍.

Congrats, that's a great camera! I recommend pairing it with a dual-band filter (such as an Optolong L-eXtreme) when imaging hydrogen-rich nebulae too. Good luck, and please do post your images so we can enjoy them 😀

[herne]

2 hours ago, Lee_P said:

Congrats, that's a great camera! I recommend pairing it with a dual-band filter (such as an Optolong L-eXtreme) when imaging hydrogen-rich nebulae too. Good luck, and please do post your images so we can enjoy them 😀

I already have an L-enhance filter which I’ve been enjoying with my DSLR so will see how that goes with the new camera first 👍.  I’ve been reading your blog more lately, some great stuff in there - thanks for sharing!