Is the horizon washing things out for me?

[pevsfreedom]

I live in Los Angeles and had a question. I was out observing M4 last night just a bit below Saturn (which I saw for the first time, magnificent!) and it was pretty low in the horizeon. I'd say 1/4 of the way to Zenith. It was the faintest smudgiest smudge of a smudge that I've ever seen, I could barely make it out whatsoever @ ~5 magnitude. Above it however is M80 which is supposed to be dimmer, and that was at least 5x brighter than M4. Is the reason M4 was nearly impossible to see because of the horizon? Should I start trying to look more towards things @ the Zenith here in Los Angeles? 

[John]

The closer to the horizon objects are, the more atmosphere you are viewing them through so they do get both washed out and rather more unsteady. The washing out is caused by an effect  which is termed "atmospheric extinction".

As you move up towards the zenith, whether in Los Angeles or elsewhere, the views of all object types should improve.

[pevsfreedom]

The closer to the horizon objects are, the more atmosphere you are viewing them through so they do get both washed out and rather more unsteady. The washing out is caused by an effect  which is termed "atmospheric extinction".

As you move up towards the zenith, whether in Los Angeles or elsewhere, the views of all object types should improve.

I did notice that at anything over 50x the objects were jittering all over the place. Good to know! 

[ghostdance]

Glad to read that at least you're now seeing stuff despite your LA skies! Not sure either of the M's you mention are even slightly visible to me

[pevsfreedom]

Glad to read that at least you're now seeing stuff despite your LA skies! Not sure either of the M's you mention are even slightly visible to me

I think in 6-7 months I might be considered a professional astronomer with how hard I have to work to see anything. On a good night I can maybe see 50 stars in the entire sky. The only way to find anything is to find one bright star (naked eye), and star hop sometimes 10-15 degrees to an object (with what I see in the scope). It's really developing my star-hopping skills at least! I can't wait to go into the mountains and actually 'see' some stuff now that I'm so good at 'finding' the smudges!

[kens]

Congrats on spotting M4 and M80!

On top of the atmospherics, the light pollution glow is usually worse down near the horizon too.

Nice thing about observing objects in the east is that they get easier to see as they climb higher during the night.

[pevsfreedom]

Congrats on spotting M4 and M80!

On top of the atmospherics, the light pollution glow is usually worse down near the horizon too.

Nice thing about observing objects in the east is that they get easier to see as they climb higher during the night.

Thanks. M4 was a real challenge. My wife couldn't see it thru the EP. I'd say near the horizon it was easily 10x brighter than at zenith! 

[Qualia]

On a good night I can maybe see 50 stars in the entire sky. The only way to find anything is to find one bright star (naked eye), and star hop sometimes 10-15 degrees to an object (with what I see in the scope). It's really developing my star-hopping skills at least! I can't wait to go into the mountains and actually 'see' some stuff now that I'm so good at 'finding' the smudges!

Good to read you're not losing heart, Pevsfreedom.

As you're well aware, when it comes to deeper space objects, LP cripples what you can see and essentially robs you of their inherent beauty and detail. The best plan of action is to plan a dark sight trip once a month, or so. However, by way of consolation, I lived in a city for a good number of years and found that LP didn't adversely affect planetary, lunar, double star, open clusters and solar work. In fact, curious as it may sound, Jupiter, for example, often looked better from the city than it does under dark skies; I imagine this has something to do with the contrast. The other benefit is that as you've noted, you're not only honing your star-hoping skills but also training your eye to the sensitiviy of faint, nebulae like light emitted from galaxies, planetary nebulae and so on. If you can tweak the delicate whisper of M80 and M4 from the city, you're in a very privileged position when it comes to observing under darker skies.

If possible the next time you're on, let us know what gear you're using and I will try to dig out some objects from my city notes that you may wish to try.

By way of example, here's a little sketch of the Double Cluster in Perseus I made from the middle of the city with a 4":

[pevsfreedom]

Yeah I'm having fun. I had a lot of issues at first with many bad laser collimators so now that I know I'm doing things right (I bought a cheshire) it's been a lot easier. 

I've noticed double stars are still really nice as well, and I've even heard planets are 'better' in the city though I'm not sure if that's true. I spotted Jupiter's 5th moon's shadow on the planet a few nights ago which was really interesting, and located Saturn for the first time. I'm gonna try and find the 'division' next.

I have a decent 'dark sky' site about 45 minutes away, and asked my mom who lives down the street if I can borrow her SUV to lug my 10" scope up to the mountains (I have a Subaru BRZ, I can barely fit binoculars in that thing!) and she said sure, so I'll try and get up there every new moon and test my skills. 

I spent a good 2 hours on M4, and gave up. Then I went and found M80 in 5 minutes (imagine that) and it boosted my confidence, and then next thing you know I found M4, it was nice.

I'd appreciate any 'targets' you can recommend, I usually 'plan' stuff by finding a bright star, identifying it, and then looking on my laptop for what DSO's are around it with a limiting mag. of probably 12 (at least near Zenith, I suppose on the horizon my limiting mag is 5!). 

I'm using a 10" apertura dob., and enjoy my 30mm EP which puts me at 42x and I also use a 2x barlow for zooming in on things. Best look I've got of Jupiter was at 277x with my 4.5mm EP, which was quite nice! 

I'll have to try the double cluster again when it's more visible. I had a lot of success during the winter 'training' myself with binoculars and that was a definite nightly target for me.