Giles_B

I've not tried to use them, but there are custom kernels for the asiair at openastro https://www.openastro.net/

Totally agree, ZWO are certainly not alone, and in fairness, it doesn't seem to have an impact on the open software community - overall people still feel willing to contribute. And of course, there is an active community reverse engineering the asiair so it works with other hardware, if you feel tempted to go down that line.

On 16/11/2023 at 20:13, powerlord said:

unless you can trick it into under exposing, I don't see how it will help. Unlike the dwarf, at least for now, you have no control over exposure. So for nebulas, etc its gonna go to its max. But for stuff like moons, planets, its going to pick what it thinks is the correct exposure - so fitting an ND will just make it take longer exposures - at least until manual seutter speed is added.

However, for M42 I think you might be right - since it will be defaulting to 10 seconds, fitting an ND might help bring more detail out the core I suppose. But to be honest, I don't think it's got the FL to make much of a difference. If you look at my core - that was with an asi678 and 1000mm FL. at 250 with the s50 sensor, there's only a handfull of pixels in that core anyway - I don't see there being much point imho.

More interesting for manual exposure settings would be planets. Or jupiter and saturn anywae. tiny as they'll be - you would at least be able to make out a bit of colour on them if you could control the exposure, so it'd be great if zwo added that imho - it could be a hidden 'show advanced' setting so no need to complicate things for users, and tbh it would be easy to add. They are a small company, and I think it'll be tricky for them to identify their market demographics tbh - e.g. how many are 'never had a telescope before, what is a nebula?' vs the one eyed men with a bit of a clue vs the seasoned astro chap buying it as a nice wee portable toy. Knowing where to focus your limited budget is key I'd have thought.

tbh, though there's not a rats chance in hell of it happening, I'd love zwo to see the bigger picture and open source the S50 - they'd get the sales they want multipled, and the community would see what they could do with it.

Creative did the seme thing under pressure with the Ender 3 3d printer, and it changed the whole market. This is different as I'd imagine any other company would struggle to develop the hardware, plus the limited market just won't support it. But that all benefits ZWO - by open sourcing it they'd gain a massive developer community and that limited dev budget disappears.

Are ZWO the sort of company to take that sort of leap of faith. I fear not. But then again, they did distrupt the market with the asiair. I'd love to be proved worng and see them do it - I think it'd be amazing to see what the dev community (and you can be sure I'd be in there) could do with it!

I love my Seestar and the ease with which a beginner can get into astro with the ZWO ecosystem. But we should all have open eyes about this relationship - in terms of open source, it is increasingly clear ZWO have been reprehensible in their abuse of open source development.

Cracked Asiair software code shows it is built on modifications of open source astronomy tools (the INDI server, astronomy.net, even parts of SIRIL). Where it supports other manufacturers, ZWO have modified the code to stop the software working with non-ZWO hardware. The code is open source under various LGPL licenses.  ZWO has refused to publish and distribute their modified source code in violation of the licence. They have been warned but still have not complied.

It's rotten behaviour but international copyright law is deep dark and expensive, so who's going to Sue? Not enthusiasts who have developed the original code for no pay in their spare time... https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indilib.org%2Fforum%2Fdevelopment%2F10380-asiair-and-opensource-software-licences.html%3Fstart%3D12%2390031%3AXQ6jVceiroFaqGgGuH08bXO_qfk&cuid=7366295

The ZWO business model is a careful curated but closed ecosystem. It's very doubtful this will change 

incidentally, Apple pioneered this approach (albeit in a slightly different ways and grander scale). So I'm not saying that ZWO are especially villainous, more that this is becoming a successful model that other businesses are replicating.

A Barlow is a useful tool, but not one I think is essential to your kit. I think a barlow was one of the first things I rushed to buy, but I found it didn't get much use. I sold it, then later bought another very cheaply second hand, but found it didn't enhance the views at all. Finally I bought a decent Televue x2, and I'm currently looking for a x3 or x5, but only because I've become interested in photographing the planets and its seems like a barlow is useful for that because the camera otherwise is fixed to the telescopes magnification.

Barlows - like eyepieces - vary in quality and it is worth buying a decent one that does not introduce too much distortion into the image. Even a good one will only be as good as the eyepiece you are barlowing, so worth getting a few good quality eyepieces first, then seeing if the barlow would help extend your range.

9 hours ago, LDW1 said:

While you were enhancing the dumbell, you could have adjusted the contrast to a more dark background by using the adjust +- slider on the Stargazing  controls page above the AF. Next time try that slider and watch how it affects the screen image and the final results. Its a nice feature that you have to work with to understand its purpose, how it functions. Nice pics by the way, the SS is amazing !

I hadn't realised the slider affects the final processed image - that's very helpful to know.

13 hours ago, Elp said:

I don't think the small sensor will do you any favours, it's only 5.6 X 3.2mm, and paired with the focal lengths of your optics you will be cropped in even more. Smaller sensors can also be prone to more amp glow across the image due to the small area (it certainly affects the 224 when I tried it, but you can get results with this one too).

With the mono you'd also have to provision for filters, I'm guessing planetary imaging isn't much fun without an electronic filter wheel either.

It's difficult getting a camera which works well with solar system, solar and DSO. Solar usually benefits from mono, planetary is possible taking into consideration of the EFW, DSO is your oyster but as mentioned FOV may be an issue. It's worth checking out an online FOV calculator to assess this more (Telescopius/astronomy.tools).

The one camera which I did have which ticked the planetary and DSO box was the 485MC, the 585 is the current model. It has small pixels but your large aperture dob would have the light gathering to feed those pixels. The 533 is also popular. Solar might need its own mono camera (I use a 290, also have the option of the 183 but the latters FPS will be a hindrance as it's a high res camera).

Thanks - looking at the FOV simulator I'd thought the small pixel size of the 585MC would make it a poor choice - even at 5x Barlow Saturn is a bit lost at 1200mm focal length. It's also a bit outside my budget, but maybe I should reconsider - presumably even a small image at a high pixel count contains a lot of information?

The VX10 can also only do equatorial for around 1 hour before needing to be reset, so I'd seen it primarily as a planetary scope (albeit the SeeStar has opened my eyes to what can be achieved with relatively short exposures), Hopefully I have in the 130mm Newt something small enough to sit on the Star Adventurer for longer exposures (I have a better focuser lined up, just need to 3D print something to mount it on). Presumably I wouldn't need a light bucket like to VX10 to get the most out of the 585MC? 

@Cosmic Geoff The "primary" aim is really solar system - the DSO itch is scratched by the SeeStar - but I'd like something that would allow some experiments with DSOs, and something that would allow solar. Maybe that isn't possible and I need three cameras 😲. It's a bit tricky deciding from the manufacturers info, because this often claims a camera ticks a few boxes.

Interesting to see your experiments with imaging M1 - this is really what I had in mind - something with different limitations to the SeeStar to compare and contrast.

Having been lucky enough to get a ZWO Seestar delivered a short while ago, I can now see how imaging can really add to my experience of astronomy.

I'm now thinking about how the right camera to complement the Seestar and act as a stepping stone to "deeper" imaging in future. 

The SeeStar uses a Sony IMX 462 colour sensor. I was wondering if a mono camera based on the same chip - the ZWO Asi462mm - would be a complementary piece of equipment? My primary intention is to image solar system objects - the sun with an 80mm f12.5 refractor / a 60mm Daystar Ha scope on a Star adventurer, and the planets with my VX10 10" dob, which has an equatorial platform.

I'd also like to experiment with imaging some DSOs - I'm expecting broadly similar results to the SeeStar, but expect to add something by using a mono camera for extra sensitivity, a range of objective sizes of the various scopes above (plus potentially a celestron 130mm Newtonian if I can find a better focuser for it). I'd see this as a stepping stone to getting a more suitable imaging scope, camera etc. further down the line.

Is the ASI462mm a good choice for this plan? I'd rather stick with ZWO because I've just bought a Asiair, but I'd be interested in your advice about my expectations of the ASI462mm and whether there are other or better intermediate solutions I should consider?

A SeeStar for sale on ABS for £650. Same strapline as the ebay auction last week: "the only way you'll get one before xmas" - let's hope it's clear skies over the holidays!

1 hour ago, jjohnson3803 said:

I realize there are environmental factors at play and situations vary, but is there an average working range for the S* WiFi?  Curious if I could sit in my dining room with an S* outside on my deck (large glass sliding doors) and still have decent connectivity.

 

I get about 10m for a good signal and 12m for a signal that drops out and reconnects. Switching the SeeStar to 2.4G helps. Our garden is long - about 40m - so one of the first things I did was to buy a cheap programmable repeater https://www.gl-inet.com/products/gl-mt300n-v2/. I put this just outside the house and it gives me a good signal a fair way inside - enough to sit on the sofa and control the Seestar.

Last update for today - there has been a new version of the app released for android and iphone - the newest app version 1.10.1 is available for download from the ZWO: https://www.zwoastro.com/downloads/seestar

Feature:

Added Auto-center feature in the Solar & Lunar Mode.

Added Full-screen preview feature.

Added Advanced Feature: Compass Calibration.

Added Advanced Feature: Adjust Level.

The max-record time of the Time-lapse is changed to 1000min.

The visibility time of the objects is changed to the current altitude.

Automatically use the result of the last preparation when preparation for image enhancement fails.

Increase the step size for manual focusing.

Optimizations:

Optimized text and UI.

Fixed known bugs.

15 hours ago, cimh said:

Hi it might be worth repeating from my entry on p31 here that my android 9 phone downloaded the app fine but it could not save images of the sun or scenery to the phone as it had not created the seestar folder in DCIM so I gave up with it. don't know if that was because of the old android 9 or the phone, a motorola. I have the app working on my lenovo tab running android 10. Although I read on the net that many tablets which do not take a sim use GPS for their compass rather than a compass sensor. So the app thinks my tablet does not have a compass. This prevents me pointing the tablet at the sky in the sky atlas, but it does not stop me doing anything else so I have taken brief images of M31, M45 and M33 without issues. It is worth noting that the app works much faster and without any issues on my iphone 12. But I use that phone for goto on my 8 dob with PSalign Pro, while the Seestar is doing its thing hands free. The other thing to note with some older phones is they might not have 5G wifi and Seestar defaults to this. That can be overcome by connecting with a 5G compatible phone and changing the wifi settings of the seestar to 2.4g. then an older phone will see it and connect.  

And just to +1 this - my Honor 9 phone is Android 9 and has no problem working with the SeeStar.

Just updated to the latest firmware (1.79) last night before continuing my multi-session capture.

Seestar now saves a master dark in the SeeStar/DarkLibrary folder - I'll be interested to see how this affects manual postprocessing.

Edit - just a quick update on this having had a chance to start messing around - very annoyingly, at least for doing my multi-session stacking, the Naxis 1 and 2 variables are switched around by the update - i.e. old images are: NAXIS1  =  1080 / NAXIS2  =   1920, and new images are NAXIS1 =1920 / NAXIS2 = 1080 - this means that images from older sessions are not compatible with newer sessions in Sirilic.

I'll have a hunt on google when I get time, but on the off chance does anyone know of a workaround?

2nd edit - having investigated a bit more, it is only the master dark that is switched around - the images since the update have the correct rotation. This means the fix is straightforward - open the master dark, rotate it 90 degrees and then save it. This allows stacking to work for multi-session with the master dark included.

4 hours ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

Question ... Is there anyone left that just uses the seestars to display the image it produces rather than  the extra processing ?Apart from me that is ...lol . I am sure i will get drawn into the (tedious, in my view)  enhancing the image, eventually .... its probably unavoidable a "do it once and you're hooked"  thing 😂

 

yes, I've definitely got a bit hooked - I've always assumed that imaging was a bit boring, but now I've started trying to do multiple sessions on the same objects.

I think I have a natural tendency to get into the geeky stuff.

@Ande, if you do want to dive a bit deeper I've been following this guide from Deep Space Astro, which uses Siril and Photoshop to process the images:

Should you wish to stack in Siril you can either the OSC_preprocessing_withoutDBF script (downloadable from the Siril website https://gitlab.com/free-astro/siril-scripts/-/tree/main/preprocessing?ref_type=heads) or Sirilic (https://gitlab.com/free-astro/sirilic/-/releases)

This made the learning curve much more shallow for me, and produces very satisfying results for me.

To be honest solar was only something I tried when I first got the scope. I agree doing things fast was asking for trouble! In many cases doing things slowly doesn't make things much better and I'm forever dropping and misplacing things - it's a minor miracle my kit is still in good shape!

1 hour ago, Ande said:

I know it’s a bit nit-picky, but I find the fitting of the solar filter a bit of a pain. Not the actual inserting, but the orientation of the ‘scope. You almost invariably choose “Solar” from the parked position. It then asks you to ensure the filter is fitted before commencement. Again, almost invariably, it won’t be, and the scope is in the parked position so you can’t fit it. You then have to faff about getting it to target something that isn’t the sun, or move the scope manually, so you can get the filter on. Then it can go sun hunting. I don’t know why it just doesn’t raise itself up to 60 degrees or so when you choose solar, and then prompt you to attach the filter.  Like I said, a bit nit-picky, and not the end of the world. 

Yes, I'm absolutely on the same page - I haven't used it much for solar, but when I did I found myself hurriedly trying to fit the filter while the scope was in motion, undoubtedly placing a strain on the motor in the process. A simple, "maintenance" mode would be helpful - my SeeStar got caught in light rain last night when I sneaked a couple of hours during a break in the cloud - it was a real pest not being able to quickly check the objective was dry once I got it inside.

2 hours ago, Stu1smartcookie said:

Hi Guys , Forgive me for not reading back through the entire thread but has anyone printed a lens cover for the SeeStars yet ?

Call it OCD but i hate the idea of that lens being uncovered when its not in use ( yep i can use the solar filter , but i think thats not the best way )

KR Stu 

Yes, plastic ones being sold on ebay for a fiver, and metal ones on AliExpress for a bit more.

Full moon over the weekend so not the most favourable conditions, but had a go at the flaming head nebula about 5am this morning. Quite dim, but managed to bring a bit of detail out with post-processing:

Also got aquainted with Sirilic and had a go at stacking 3 sessions on IC5070 - Pelican nebula:

Original first (posted this before), then post-processed: 

20 minutes ago, powerlord said:

So, I took delivery of the Dwarf II yesterday. Rubbish conditions, but just about clear enough to get 30 mins on the North American Nebula with it - this was with no filter other than the built in IR cut. And binning at the default 2x2.

First is the dwarf stacking, second is my processing of fits on PC:

 

So far... the mobile app is a hell of a lot more rubbish. Calibrating is a hit or miss affair - I was looking on internet for reasons why mine was failing for ages till I just kept trying again and again till it worked - but it could be because it was cloudy - but S50 WAY ahead here. And it's looking like in camera stacking is much better on S50 too - though to be fair remember this is with basic UVIR filter - no narrowband like the S50. I'll try a UHC and then an L-extreme next clear night.

Oh also, this was in AZ mode - EQ mode would of course eliminate the rotation and the rotation walking noise on my edit. I also thing in EQ mode, with longer integration turning binning off will be worth a try.

What I will say, is that during the day its really good - easy to flick about using the wide view to find birds, squirrels etc. And the normal landscape rather than weird portrait vertical format of the S50 works far better fort that sort of stuff.

Anyway, just first light shared.

stu

Thanks for sharing. The D2 is certainly an exciting little device and the EQ mode, wider field of view remote and daytime function- not to mention landscape orientation - are tempting additions. What is the range when using it for remote nature watching?

Cloudy last night, but partially so, always a few gaps in the clouds so I thought i’d see what the Seestar would achieve in tough conditions. It was a night I'd never have bothered to set the dob up on, because the view would have been too intermittent.

I was pushing the Seestar to its limits obviously and for that reason only the results may be of interest. A few targets I tried the software claimed to find but didn't get any result - I guess the plate solving either got confused or the target clouded over. The couple of targets I did capture needed to enhance for long periods.

M39 was a fairly easy target. 20 minutes on the target, all the available subs have some cloud but the cluster comes out nicely. It must reject the subs that have no stars because these aren't saved - generally only 2-3 subs a minute are available.

Much less luck with the wizard nebula despite about two hours on the target (of which only about 1\4 resulted in a saved sub) so lots of variation in sky quality and some rotation. However to be honest I'm quite surprised it captured anything, given the conditions.

These are great, and I particularly like M81 (although it's labelled M16 on your processed picture 😮)

What's the galaxy nearby visible on the top left corner of that M81 pic? The processing seems to have added detail to this over that visible on the SeeStar image - was that because the internal stacking cropped it out?

Got some clear sky last night, but I haven't got around to doing anything with the SeeStar pictures yet. Spent the evening switching between looking a Saturn with the dob, and getting a better sense of the early winter sky with the binoculars, and all the while SeeStar looked at DSOs in detail - a perfect astro night out!

In common with most astronomers I certainly AM cash-limited and have to weigh up my purchases carefully. Unfortunately I won't be getting a Dwarf soon. However that doesn't mean I'm not very interested in what the Dwarf will eventually do with the right software support (which seems to be coming, if slowly).

A second beautifully clear weekend, and a chance to try out the updated v1.9 app and 1.6 firmware.

Unfortunately I spent much of the small hours of Saturday imaging the elephants trunk only to find that the SeeStar was pointing at a tree. There is only so much operator error you can take out of a go to system!

A couple of images from early on Friday night worth sharing all the same - in both cases I've included post processed versions I manually restacked and further processed using Siril and Photoshop:

M13:

Pelican Nebula:

Finally, the power died during a visualisation of M32 - this was after the elephant's trunk debacle, so the battery was pretty low. No SeeStar processed version to be found, but the FITS survived. I've included it here because I did a rather lacklustre job of capturing this with my first weekend with the SeeStar - I forgot to use the internal filter - so I was pleased to see the amount of detail the SeeStar FITS hold when the filter is used as it should be. This was from a total of 112 10 second subs, restacked with Siril and post-processed in Siril and Photoshop:

All imaged in Bortle 5 suburban skies.

18 hours ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

Is the ability to save separate FITS files (rather than stacked) available in the generally distributed software upgrades, or is is only available in beta versions distributed to beta testers? Various beta testers have published Youtube videos indicating that they had this feature available to them.

This is from the ZWO Seestar site dated July: " Moreover, our Pro Mode, coming soon, will introduce exciting additional features, including the ability to save individual images from each exposure for users to further enhance and personalize."

So far as I know, the 'Pro Mode' remains vapourware.

There is a setting in the "advanced features" menu to "save all frames" - this saves separate FITS and JPEGS in a SeeStar folder with the suffix '-sub', accessible when you connect to your computer.

FYI v1.9 of the app is available to download from the ZWO website for both iOS and Android - https://www.zwoastro.com/downloads/seestar

I haven't been brave enough to test my french or deal with automatic translation, but the most obvious Achilles heels of the SeeStar seem to be the narrow field of view and the relatively low pixel resolution of the camera - you don't have to try many objects to get sense of these limitations. Some software tweaks will help - mosaic would help it to shine with larger objects - but it's hardly surprising that the higher spec'ed Vespera is the best performer.

Ultimately whether this is a deal breaker for the SeeStar comes down to cost - for the cash limited - i.e. pretty much everyone, there is always something bigger, better and more expensive in astronomy , but the SeeStar (and I assume, having never used one, the Dwarf) give a heck of a lot of bang per buck.