herne

13 hours ago, beamer3.6m said:

My second question...

So for a basic imaging rig (EQ) what do I need software wise as it has been years since I imaged.

I have the following:

Laptop

Canon 400d

Canon 350d

Qhy5 guide cam

Various cables

130pds

Synscan handset from original heq5 mount (must be 5years old now)

-----

So if I use the gti would any of the above be useful. The heq5 is just too much of a faff to get out. I want portable and lightweight.

I used to image with the heq5 using PhD etc and so understand the concept of guiding etc but I am a looooong time out of the game so just need to know the BASIC kit I need to get going... I don't need to go for asiais or advanced setups immediately.

The biggest issue I had when using a laptop and DSLR was polar aligning.  There is no built in polar scope on the AZGTi.  I found it frustrating to the point of either giving up or buying an ASIair (I bought the ASIair).  Other people’s mileage may vary of course, that’s just my experience.

iirc you can install the synscan app onto a laptop to control goto and tracking so no need to use the handset (or install the app onto your phone/tablet and use wirelessly).  Sharpcap for guiding.  I believe NINA also works with the gti but I’ve never tried it.

(Thinking about it you won’t be able to use a hand controller anyway because you’ll need the hand control port on the AZGTi to connect to your laptop using a cable such as this one from FLO).

Assuming you want to image DSOs you’ll also need an equatorial wedge and update the AZGTi’s software so it’ll work in equatorial mode.

2 hours ago, bomberbaz said:

I have both wedges, the WO version is vastly superiour IMHO. 

Now I have got the hang of it I can align it very quickly but more importantly,  it feels far more steady once aligned than it did with the SW version. 

2 hours ago, Elp said:

You can literally PA within 1-2 minutes with the WO one if it's already altitude pre set. Ive owned 4 different ones to use with my azgtis and settled on one WO one and one Ioptron one, whatever works stick with it.

I’ve no doubt the WO wedge is a great piece of kit.  Personally I’ve never had any issues with the SW one (4 mins to PA last night thanks to me accidentally knocking the tripod and I’ve previously taken 10 mins subs) and so see no need to change 👍.

11 hours ago, Gfamily said:

One factor is that the SAGTi is designed for imaging (or, at least, I assume it is), so if there are design limitations that work against that (for example, the instances of the AZGTi that don't have a threaded counterweight arm socket), you can at least return it. 

I would say though, that people who use the AZGti with the WO Eq wedge seem to be far more satisfied than those who use the SW wedge that comes with the SA Mount. 

Quite possibly yes.  For myself and the results I get I see no need to swap out my SW wedge for the WO one 👍.

18 hours ago, George Sinanis said:

Thanks for the feedback. Is this cable different than the one that the EQ6R Pro uses?

It's a different cable.  This is the one for the EQ6R.

As others above, I also use the EQ DIR cable to connect the AZ Gti to the ASI Air.  When connected, make sure you choose "EQ Mod Mount" on your phone/pad when opening the AAP app if you use the cable.

18 hours ago, Elp said:

Bingo, bit annoyed though that the first one I bought is 5M as it was the only one in stock at the time so just trails across the floor. Don't particularly care about cable management due to having to setup and dismantle every time.

Haha me too.  I wrap the excess around the counter weight bar.

You guys are way off the mark.  There's no such thing as space, it's all just a big light show projected onto a dome and we're mind controlled from vapour trails and 5G.  Even the ancient Greeks were, who didn't exist - just like Australia and the entire southern hemisphere hemiplane.

Anyway, back in reality, that's a lovely globular cluster and a well deserving picture of the month 👏.

@bomberbaz It looks like something's wrong with that download file.  It's really small for a tiff and can't open it once downloaded.

2 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

The de-starring has worked well. Very well, in fact.  Personally I wouldn't publish a 'final' starless image, I don't think, but I use them all the time in my present processing because, as Tomato says, you can put the stars back at a fraction of the stretch given to the nebulae. Remember that, in amateur telescopes, stars would not exceed a single pixel without atmospheric blurring and other artifacts. I love the way that such de-starred/re-starred images can give that 'big telescope' look. (The bigger the telescope, the smaller the stars it will produce in images, all things being equal.)

Regarding your excellent Eagle, my suspicion is that it may be slightly black clipped. I may be wrong, but I'd want to hunt around in the bottom end of the signal for any faint stuff that might still be lurking there.

Olly

Yes agreed.  I think the de-starring / re-starring approach is definitely the way to go.

There probably is some more signal to squeeze out and will be interesting to try to get at it, especially once I add more data 👍.

7 minutes ago, Budgie1 said:

Looking on the FLO website, the EQDIR for the AZ GTi is different to the one for the EQ5. It looks like the AZ GTi has the RJ11 connection, where as the EQ5 version has the larger RJ45.

The only time you would use the "Autoguider" connection on the EQ5's control box is when you're connecting the ST4 cable directly between the mount & the camera, then the mount would have to be set to "On Camera" in the ASIAir. You would also still need the USB cable connection from the camera to the ASIAir as well.

Looks like you need another EQDIR cable, unless your mount has one of the newer hand controllers with the USB port on the bottom.

Was just about to post the same, it’s a different cable.  Here’s the link for the EQ5 cable (it looks like the Az gti cable link was posted twice above 👍).

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-mount-accessories/lynx-astro-ftdi-eqdir-usb-adapter-for-sky-watcher-eq5-pro-heq5-syntrek-pro-az-eq5-gt-az-eq6-gt-and-eq8-mounts.html.

It’s probably worth a quick email to FLO first before you buy though @LaurenceT as you say you have a rather elderly EQ5 - just in case something has changed.

4 minutes ago, bomberbaz said:

Hello all, quick update on the rig.

I have managed to source a 2nd hand WO wedge for £150,  heard nothing but good about them so why not. TBF I have really got better with the SW star adventurer one but I am given to believe this is another step up. I may keep the SW one unless someone wants one for the AZ Gti!

Also just bought one of these new ZWO ASI 120MM Mini USB 2.0 Mono Camera | First Light Optics  For the difference between new and 2nd hand I couldn't be bothered waiting. 

I am going to do some tinkering with the ZWO 224mc to make it a worthwhile winter option when the evenings are cooler. 

That’s the same guide camera I use - it sometimes had trouble finding a decent guide star to use.  That is until I realised the Gain was set too low.  Things became much clearer after I turned it up 🤣.

This is an ongoing project and by no means finished however being impatient I thought I'd have a quick play with the data captured so far (c. 7 hours worth of 2 min subs plus a few darks).  Just for kicks I also had a look at a starless version (below), something I haven't tried before, and I kind of like it.  It's not what I'd call natural looking but it has a certain drama (not sure if that's the right word) about it I think.  Perhaps once the project's finished I'll do with/without stars versions but it's certainly given me food for thought although I'm certainly in two minds about it - any thoughts?

For reference taken with a William Optics Z61ii, ZWO ASI 533MC Pro, Optolong L-Enhance filter.  Stacked in DSS, processed in Photoshop and Starnet++.

Thought I'd share this - I had my first attempt at M16 last night (2 min subs).  Not an easy target for me as neighbouring rooflines obscure all vision until around 2330 plus it's comparatively low in the sky and south for me is towards Canterbury, so a fair amount of light coming up.  I also noticed I'd need to do a meridian flip at about 1am, something I don't usually get too involved with.

But I thought lets give it a crack.  And I have to say the AZ GTi + AAP performed flawlessly for the meridian flip.  I stayed up to make sure it all went smoothly and to be honest I didn't need to bother.  A few tentative minutes waiting after the flip for everything to settle, restart guiding and imaging but it all worked just fine and didn't need any interference from me.  It really is a cracking little mount, continues to impress and I think is just an ideal partner for the AAP.

Anyway, images below (wide field and crop) - just under 3 hours integration (I could use more and am keeping an eye on the sky to add more soon I hope) along with some Dark frames.  I may see if I can split out the RGB and make a pseudo-Hubble palette image.

1 hour ago, bomberbaz said:

Hello all. Well managed to grab another 30 minutes data last night and the difference was very noticeable in both terms of star shape and more over, the end result.

The tracking seemed to be behaving itself much better last night but I just wish i would learn to leave well alone, haha.

Anyway, I did push the data through SiriL first and then had a tinker in Gimp after that and end result is below.

I am still learning a lot and when I have the patience to sit down and learn it some more no doubt results will get a little better.

I’d say that’s definitely better than your previous picture - you’ve brought out more of the surrounding nebulosity and there is a better overall colour calibration 👍.

Additional integration time will of course be useful but there’s a marked difference already between your two pictures and you’re on the right track 😀.

2 hours ago, bomberbaz said:

Thanks @herne for that, I shall give that a go later on to see how I get on. 

I still intend reading this too as it should hopefully give me a better understanding of what is actually happening Siril - Manual pre-processing

However in the interim your walkthrough will come in very handy. 👌

Yeh definitely have read of the manual 👍. I didn’t want to go into detail above about what it all means, just a quick overview to get started 👍

@bomberbaz  Actually I should list the exact Siril workflow I used for your data:

Open the tif file in Siril.

At the bottom middle, change "Linear" to "Autostretch".

If you flick through the Red/Green/Blue/RGB channel tabs at the top, they'll all be shades of grey except the RGB channel which will be bright green.

From the top, select Image Processing > Color Calibration > Photometric Color Calibration.

In the window which appears, select the "Image Parameters" box, type in NGC6888 and click Find.

Some options should appear underneath after clicking Find.  Select Simbad Crescent Nebula (or NED NGC6888 if you don't get that option).  Then click OK.

Wait for it to complete and click close.  The bright green RGB picture should disappear and be replaced with something looking better but suffering from gradient.  The Crescent will be in the centre against a greenish/black night sky and framed by reddish clouds.

Select the Blue Red or Green channel but not the RGB channel.

Select Image Processing > Background Extraction.

Use these settings in the window which appears:  Degree order 4; Samples per line 20; Tolerance 1.00; leave Add Dither unchecked.  Click Generate.

A load of small green boxes will appear.  Right click on whichever green boxes touch or are very near to the Crescent nebula to make them disappear.  (You can't get rid of boxes if in the RGB channel, hence changing to one of the others).  I got rid of 4 boxes.  You don't want them touching your target as that'll make the program think it's part of the gradient.  Click Apply then Close when it's finished.

Click on the RGB channel and your picture should now be looking pretty nice.

Select Image Processing > Remove Green Noise.  Make sure the Protection Method is set to Average Neutral, tick Preserve Lightness and click Apply.  Close the window when done.

At the middle bottom, change Autostretch to Linear.  The screen will go all black again.

Select Image Processing > Histogram Transformation.  A window will appear with a line graph in it.

Just below the line graph there are 6 icons.  Click the one on the right which looks like a cog wheel with an S curve running through it.

Your picture will reappear.  Click Apply then Close.

The night sky will have a blueish tinge which I sorted out in Photoshop with a basic "S" curve.  I guess GIMP could do the same.

Now save it as a 16 bit tif file for use in Photoshop or GIMP.  (Right click on the image > Save RGB image to TIFF > give it a filename > select 16 bit unsigned integer).

That's it 👍.

32 minutes ago, bomberbaz said:

I have heard nothing but good things about SIRIL.

And I do have Siril, I also have the webpage which walks you through it's use.

So I think given what you have shown me with it's use it's about time I learned how to use it 😅.

You can use it for stacking and/or some basic processing.

I tend to experiment with stacking between DSS and Siril and use the stacked version I like the best.  For my Sadr pic on the previous page I used DSS then Photoshop, didn't touch Siril.  But for my recent Whirlpool galaxy pic I preferred the stack which Siril produced, then did some light processing in Siril before switching to PS.  It's just trial and error.

With your Crescent nebula data it looked like there was some gradient in it which can be dealt with in PS but I find it easier to deal with using Siril.  So with your tif file I used Siril for a quick auto stretch followed by a colour calibration, then a background extraction to help with gradient and finished with the green noise removal tool (you'll see what I mean when you start using it).  It took me 5 mins.

Siril can be more complex but I find that quick & simple workflow suits me just fine.  I've only been using the program for a few months - I watched some YT videos and just practised with some data 👍.

24 minutes ago, bomberbaz said:

I think that maybe I need more processing assistance if I am honest. And I also think your right in that perhaps my data is better than I am thinking it it. (I do tend to be too personal critical)

For sure there is room for improvement, as there always is, but maybe not to the level I am thinking. 

thanks all

Steve

We're probably all our own worse critics.  I know I am 🙂.  That's something great about this hobby, there's always something new to learn or improve on.  Stick at it, you're definitely on the right track 👍.

2 hours ago, bomberbaz said:

Be my guest, I take it you meant the autosave from DSS which includes the calibration files. If not I will attach a copy without calibration files. Also it is actually 60mins data, not 40 as I first thought. (I was very tired)

Autosave.tif 158.51 MB · 2 downloads

 

I had a quick play.  There's some decent data in there, not only of the Crescent Nebula but also of other surrounding nebulosity 👍.

Below are two pictures.  The first is a simple process of your raw tiff file using Siril only.  The second is taking that file processed in Siril and running it through Photoshop with some basic curves and a little gausian blur to help with some of the aberration.  It's still a bit noisy which with some extra time I could reduce and perhaps make some other improvements too, but hopefully you get the idea.

Some stars do still seem to be a little misshapen, although only really noticeable if you zoom right in.  But overall you've got some good data in there, perhaps more than you may realise 🙂.

3 minutes ago, LaurenceT said:

Excellent image, what scope are you using?

William Optics Z61II with WO field flattener.  I also used an Optolong L-Enhance filter.

7 minutes ago, bomberbaz said:

I get what your saying but it the mis-shape seems to follow the RA axis and given the slight movement in that axis it gives me that hunch.

The last readings were in DEC around 0.8 but RA 2.5, this after spending a long time sitting and staring into my phone at the tracking error and tweaking away.

Thanks for the advice though. I will bear this in mind after my next data grab, hoping to get another hour or so data again on the crescent and will see how that data looks.

 

 

I'm by no means an expert but if it helps upload your stacked data and I'll have a quick play?   You may be right of course and it won't do anything but sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can help?

Further to my 10min sub experiment of the Sadr region (here a few pages back) I was out again photographing Sadr the other night, but this time using 2 min subs (about 3 hours worth).  See below - it's a quick and dirty stretch in Photoshop, nothing more.

This is without calibration frames or any sort of noise reduction in post processing, unless Deep Sky Stacker did something during stacking.  I like both images and am really impressed at how clean they look given the lack of calibration frames, although I prefer this one with the 2 min subs as I think the stars seem less bloated.  It's been an interesting experiment and am super happy with how the new camera (ASI 533MC Pro) and AZ GTi have performed.

I will spend some time properly processing the image at some point.

3 hours ago, bomberbaz said:

Further to this I have had it apart and back together, I have also retightened every single clamp bolt etc to take any other flexture out of the system.

Now it does seem a little tighter but not significantly so. Looking at it most of the movement is coming from the RA/AZ axis of the mount with a smaller movement coming through the tripod and wedge.

I know there is a mod to take that mount movement out but as mentioned the one of the screws broke so I cannot do this, so there is a spring inserted between the house and RA/AZ motor to try to take some of it up.

Think I need to test it again to see if the slight elongation of the stars has been improved upon. To see what I am referring to you can zoom in on this picture below, not massive but there.

To my eye there seems to be more of an issue with star colour (aberration) rather than shape.  That colour issue may make things look like stars are slightly mis-shaped. 

Take a look at the screen grab below of a zoomed in portion of your picture.  I've circled a few to demonstrate - they start dark going into red at the top, leading into an aqua to yellow at the bottom.  That gives them a slightly flattened look (elongated?) although I think the overall star shape is still pretty round.  I get a similar issue which I process out in Photoshop.  If you use PS flick to minute 41 of this YouTube video to get an idea of how to correct (the whole video is worth watching tbh).

1 hour ago, knobby said:

Amazing thread ... very long but very useful.

Can I ask what the heaviest scope you've used on your AZ-Gti ?

Thinking of trying some planetary with mine @elp perked my interest in another thread 🙂

I'm in EQ mode with counterweights.

I’m at about 5½kg including counter weight of c.1.7kg.  That includes scope, camera, guide scope, guide camera, asi air, field flattener and cables.  The scope on it’s own weighs 2.2kg (William Optics Z61II).

I’ve never done any planetary though.

17 minutes ago, bomberbaz said:

Now a QUESTION. How much free play does anyone have in the AZ/RA axis please, I have some free play and a little here and there all affects results. I am also concerned this may be affecting tracking a little. 

None ( I use the SW wedge).  A few weeks ago I did notice some play stemming from a couple of hex bolts (not in RA though) which needed tightening.  Double check everything 👍.

7 hours ago, tompato said:

My Az-Gti and AsiAir are outside as I type this capturing some 120s subs on M27.

All worked pretty seamlessly, I plonked it down facing Polaris, popped it into PA mode and it went through its stuff. I then fiddled about for about 10 mins and got it to around 1 arc minute and a smiley face and stopped. Then set it to go to Deneb and it was spot on.

Pointed it at M27 and took a snap and hey presto. Did a couple of focus checks. Then I figured I would try guiding and had a play with the menus. Realised I've never used my 120mm mini before and so it was not in focus at all so had to fiddle with that until I realised the 120 stands for 120mm focus distance (I think?) and so extended my guidescope so it was around that. Struggled to get it perfect but it was good enough for guiding.

Swung it back to M27 and set the guiding to calibrate and started a run of 30 x 120s subs. I tried 180 but the stars has slight movement so figured I would play it safe.

Good stuff, looks like you’ve got your problems turned around nicely 👍.

1 hour ago, AstroNebulee said:

After I've done my PA I send the mount back to the home position (counterweights down and scope vertical and pointing north, normal parked postion) if that makes sense.

Yeh, I was just wondering why the extra step of sending to home between PA and goto star for focus?  I don't do that "home" step so perhaps I'm missing something (although I've never had any problems with missing that step)?

1 hour ago, AstroNebulee said:

I don't have the button 'goto auto centre' switched on my AApro, never have, that's where the confusion arises I suspect. I will switch the goto auto centre button on, to save doing the manual plate solve. It's just the way I've always done it and like the extra control over the AApro.

Ahh ok gotcha 👍.