Balthazar Saissore
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Posts posted by Balthazar Saissore
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8 minutes ago, pipnina said:
You are right it would be a bit redundant in your case where you'll be next to the scope- I was having a slightly confused moment where I use my RPI4 to control the scope from a distance and didn't make the connection that your and my use cases weren't quite the same haha.
As for the usability: it's honestly really good. If you use Astroberry, which is a fork of the raspbian project which has a desktop, samba server, wifi hotspot and even a VNC server set up from the box, you just have to burn the Astroberry disk image to the SD card, plug it into the PI, put the power on and in a minute or so the "astroberry" wifi hotspot appears. If you connect to that you can open a web browser or a VNC viewer app, and connect to the PI's ip address and it will present you with the login screen, with some configuration of the INDI server (telescope hardware drivers) on the left.
I find it very convenient and flexible, not to mention reasonably priced, but as you say the use case is limited in your situation.
Also Re: availability. Yeah, I struggled to get one and settled on the 2GB model... Only to find out that I *really* needed the 4GB instead.
It is a very neat setup though
I was thinking of getting a beaglebone black for some embedded linux practice but I doubt it'll be anytime soon. Yea the 4GB model is especially spicy to find from what I've heard, and close to 220 euro :P for the ones I've found here. I think at that price the asiair is starting to look like a better option. I assume you use to to monitor progress from home while the setup sits comfortably outside in the backyard. I doubt I'll end up doing something like that in the foreseeable future but it is indeed an interesting idea, do you end up getting a live feed of the guidecam and like various pieces of information or is it more of a control panel type thing. (will definitely be checking out the astroberry repo though to see what interesting things they're offering )
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7 hours ago, WolfieGlos said:
The best analogy I came across is with a car. You could drive everywhere at 20mph in first gear; you would strain the car and likely ruin the engine. Or you could drive in 2nd or 3rd gear, put less stress on it and it would run smoother and be more mechanically sympathetic.
Apply the same logic to the mount.
There is a lot of conflicting information out there, and yes the SA is rated for 5kg. But some say not to go above half that for good tracking and to keep it running smoothly. So that's 2.5kg! My setup was circa 3.5-4kg, and it did struggle even with guiding. Shorter subs can help, but at 2 minutes I was getting a scrap rate (subs with trailing stars) of circa 10%. Personally, if you can't stretch to a HEQ5, then perhaps look at an EQM-35. It will take more of a payload, and is cheaper (and lighter), but will not future proof if you wanted a longer or bigger scope.
I know it's daunting and complicated, I certainly found it so, and there's a lot to consider especially with that limiting factor of money!
Yea I thought as much the max ratings are rarely for intended use, with half the payload as a guideline I would need to be looking at a minimum payload of 10kg for what i'd like to have as a setup. A new heq5 will cost me about 1400-1500€ so looking at EQM-35 and EQ5 they are both not bad alternatives coming in both at about 10kg payloads. The added 4kg of the HEQ5 are definitely awesome but they add a lot of cost. If I could figure out the taxation on used products from the UK though I'd be able to go for an heq5 I believe as the prices I saw were around the 500-800 pounds range.
6 hours ago, 900SL said:I try not to consider how much I have spent since starting this hobby, so all I can say is 'buckle up Dorothy, because cash is going bye bye'
My progression was:
DSLR & wide angle lens
DSLR, intervalometer & DSLR lenses & tracking with Skywatcher Star Adventurer (junk)
Added ASI Air Pro and guide camera to automate and control sequencing and guiding. Like putting lipstick on a pig with the Skywatcher
DSLR & Telescope & much better tracker (Fornax lightrack 2 with a balance arm etc) (excellent portable set up but lacks go to and cannot dither and costs too much, should have gone straight to a equatorial mount)
Because I was in a hot country, the thermal issues with a DSLR were the limiting factor so I decided to go for broke and went to:
Vixen Mount, ASi Air Pro control, OSC 533MC cooled camera (colour is much cheaper and easier than mono), telescopes (which seem to have grown at a worrying rate, from zero to three in a short period)
For beginner, try normal DSLR with a cheap tracker, learn basics of stacking, processing, then when you get frustrated with accuracy, lack of go to, polar alignment, noise, etc etc go to a go to mount and OSC camera
And to quote an opft repeated mantra: MOUNT IS EVERYTHING
I now understand that
Ah, interesting to see such a colorful experience with the SA. I wonder if you could share a bit more about what kind of issues you faced with the dslr and heat. Obviously I'd prefer to start out with a dedicated color astrocam, but in absence of one I wouldn't like to wait around for more than a year waiting for the possibility that a good deal will show up or that I will raise enough money to get a new one. For example the ASI 533 MC Pro Color costs about 1.2k euros new here, assuming I could find it or a similar one for half the price then it'd be worth it over a dslr, otherwise might need to settle for phone camera or end up choosing the dslr
4 hours ago, M40 said:Looks like most times if you lucky you can setup close to your car or somewhere safe so can I suggest that you go straight to the heq5 and work your budget around that. Budgetary constraints try a dslr and wide angle lens and see how you get on.
Just to add, I recently started playing with the asiair plus and I think its superb. PA and then goto a target and solve, spot on. The aa+ works with some dslr cameras (never tried it) but the aa+ uses the main camera for PA, tracking and solving so you dont initially need a guide scope. So just if you feel this maybe a route for you in the future pick a dslr that is compatible with the aa+. All the best.
I think if I can either find a good deal on the heq5 or just wait a bit longer and just go with that. As for the asiair, i think its more of a quality of life improvement than a necessity, it really depends on the deals I can get on either, and I think I'd probably enjoy it more to start a bit more "old school" than, automate everything straight away. I would definitely include such an option though, and I'm definitely all about future proofing so thanks for the suggestion.
2 hours ago, pipnina said:I'm quite fond of my raspberry pi for scope control, but that does require a laptop or it can be a bit fiddly to control via a VNC app on a phone. You also need the 4GB pi4 at a minimum and to source a good quality 3A 5v supply and cable.
Apart from the fact that a raspberry pi is rarer than gold nowadays, I think it would not be a very enjoyable experience to have to ssh into it to tweak things. Maybe with a wifi hotspot and a simple frontend site hosted on localhost could be interesting but who has the time to go through all that. I already have a few projects with microelectronics I think i'd keep astro as simple as possible on that regard. Although I was under the impression that you can already use a computer for scope control so wouldn't it be a bit redundant if you end up needing a laptop to easily use the pi?
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On 23/04/2023 at 03:09, WolfieGlos said:
The SA can handle the very lightest scopes with a guider, I used https://www.firstlightoptics.com/ed-pro/sky-watcher-evostar-72ed-ds-pro-ota.html + https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-mini-finder-guider-asi120mm-bundle.html on the SA, coupled with a field flattener and a DSLR. See below picture. You wouldn't get any larger than this, but that scope perfectly frames larger targets such as the Andromeda galaxy diagonally across a DSLR frame. I was limited to max 2minute subs though, and no dithering to cancel out walking noise. If you wanted a Redcat at 250FL, the SA would work perfectly, and I had success with a Canon 200 f/2.8 lens and achieved longer subs due to the lighter weight and lower strain put onto the tracker. You can input various camera/scopes here to see how they fare with framing up targets: https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/
As for the HEQ5, it depends on the type of scope. For instance, if you wanted a newtonian, the HEQ5 can handle a 6" f/4 on it's payload capacity but not a 10", and an 8" would be at the limit. Similar for the larger reflectors and refractors, so it depends how large you want to go, what camera you pair with it, and how much money you have/want to spend. If you can afford £7000 for just a mount, I'm sure this will handle almost anything! https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-mounts/sky-watcher-eq8-rh-astronomy-mount-with-renishaw-ra-encoder.html
Others have a lot more experience, but I would echo what they say; invest in a decent mount that will future proof you, and work with it. You can always sell it later on if you need a larger one.
I didn't notice it anywhere, but if you told us a rough budget, I'm sure people could recommend a decent complete setup. Even if you email FLO directly, they would too. They are very helpful.
Hey there sorry for the late response, been pretty busy with work. I definitely cannot afford spending 7k for the mount just yet heh, and honestly I doubt I'd need it.
I am estimating the weight to be roughly at or above 5kg for the setup I'd like but that's obviously an estimation. I've mentioned my budget before, but I'd like to stick to at or around the 2k euro mark. My weight calculations are 2.5kg for a scope, .5kg for camera + .5kg for guidescope + .5kg for guide camera or at least that's the weights I saw at the site. Technically they should be easily covered by the SA, but I'm not sure if being within the weight limit is the same as "works well".
On 23/04/2023 at 11:59, M40 said:Have you ever seen that film Labyrinth with David Bowie? Every time you start down a path, something changes. So take a step back and see where we are. You need a portable setup for AP and you have a budget of about 2K ish and it's hot where you are.
You will need a battery pack for your mount and another for your camera and stuff. Very sensible and on the mark point from Olly, so ultimately think cooled camera and there goes a big chunk of your budget. You dont have to start with a cooled camera, you can start with an ok dslr and lens but you will need a tracking mount. The heq5 is portable, just, depends how far you have to move it. If it's far from your car, I would suggest forget it at this stage and now think azgti or star adventurer type of mount. A decent tripod is surprisingly expensive but imo essential. Can you setup close to your car?
All the best.
So I have a couple of options for locations.
For quick access I have a number of locations around me that I can drive to within an hour and all would pretty much be setup right on the car and then pack up go home for the night.
I have a couple of locations that I intend to camp out the night, let's say a mix of 70%-30% with the 30 being near the car, and the rest being far from the car. (By far I mean around 100-400 yards depending)
I also have 2 locations which are country houses and I'll be able to tie in to DC power and have private parking.
The problem is the difference in price between new-used and the availability of used ads. For example I checked some UK used ads and the pricing was significantly lower than other EU secondhand.
I also found out that it's cheaper for me to buy from FLO and pay duties rather than buy from new EU import duty free. I think for a zenithstar 73 + 50mm guidescope + flattener it came out to about 1276£ from EU, and 1070£ from UK. And that's with the import fees calculated.
I did try to find a suitable cooled camera but have not found anything that I could justify the price of yet since cheapest new one I can get is upwards of 1k here, and there are so many options that I don't even know if the used ads I've found are even any good or suited to dso.
Basically with 1k£ for the scope related things, 300£ for an SA if it could handle the weight and let's say 500£ for a camera I would be set but even the SA is 600€ new here so heh once again too many things to consider.
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1 hour ago, Elp said:
If you've got the space for it, a heavier duty mount from the start will be better than buying again after. A word of caution however, I did this initially and bought an eq3-2 (also upgraded to the motor drives), never used it really and it took up space indoors.
My main concern is that I want to go for a telescope and guide scope setup and I'm pretty sure that the star adventurer wouldn't be able to handle that, hence why I wanted to go for the heavy mount straight away. But now I'm re-evaluating my options and it might be a better option, too many options heh.
28 minutes ago, WolfieGlos said:Hi and welcome to SGL 🙂
I'll put my thoughts into this. I started this hobby about 18 months ago, I already had a DSLR (Canon 77D), a few lenses and a tripod. And how I started was to buy a star adventurer. Because it was cheap, because I didn't know how far I would take the hobby and because I was ill-informed. I was also on the verge of my wedding, so couldn't justify anymore big expenditure at the time!!
Over time, I added guiding, then an Evostar 72ED+flattener+red-dot sight, astro-modded DSLR.... So inevitably my interest had grown, ambitions got more and more...and 4 months ago I bought a used HEQ5+belt mod for £700.
Honestly...I wish I had done it sooner; a lot of my trials and problems were caused by using a star tracker instead of a proper mount. I also found that the K&F Concept tripod that I used for the SA, rated for 25kg, was very flimsy and wobbled a lot compared to a proper tripod. Using the SA, I would sometimes spend an hour tracking down a target before imaging because it doesn't have GoTo. Now, with the HEQ5, I can have it outside, setup, on target using GoTo and starting imaging in 20 minutes.
What I will say though, is that using the SA taught me a lot from the outset, through trial and error and browsing and asking on forums. Although I would say I've picked up some bad habits doing this (such as manual polar alignment...necessary with the SA, but which I still stupidly do on the HEQ5.....), I would say if you are looking to scratch an itch it's a good way to start, but clearly you know you want more so I would say jump in and go for a proper mount. It will set you on a better path from the start although arguably it's a steeper learning curve. The SA is very simple by comparison; to show this in an image, below is how I started vs how its going now, and my setup isn't refined (cables!) and it doesn't have anything else like electronic focusers, mono-camera with filter wheels, asi-air, etc.
Finally, if you want to get larger scopes particularly for small galaxies and planetary nebula, then look above a HEQ5. I'm finding now, after only 4 months using it, that if I want a larger scope (8" Newt or a large refractor) that I will struggle both in payload and tracking.
Interesting points, as I can see you're probably using home power for the heq5 which is one of my concerns really, but still solvable I guess. I definitely have plans for delving deeper into AP so no way I'll be stopping at just the basic gear. That's why I wanted to go straight for the one I will probably need rather than just going for the "easier" entry option.
Definitely wouldn't be a bad nice to have for travelling an being more mobile but it really depends on how soon I'll be transitioning to a telescope rather than a lens. Surprised to hear you've been heaving trouble with heavier scopes, is that with the heq5? or with the SA? Really interested to see what quirks you've faced either way to know what limitations I could end up needing to plan for.
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2 hours ago, pipnina said:
I like to think of it as eventually turning into a grab & go imaging setup, and a bigger setup.
If you start with the star adventurer and camera, and over 2-3 years you slowly buy the bits for a bigger setup, in the end you have your original star adventurer setup AND a big telescope setup. You can essentially work on two images at once, or only take the kit you feel like setting up with you on any given excursion.
I just feel like waiting to get the perfect setup for 3 years might just be needlessly prolonging things on a hobby you'll have spent thousands on but never participated in until those 3 years are up!
If you buy something for €500 and enjoyed it for 3 years, did you waste your money or did you invest in a good time? That's up to you. There's also resale value to consider if you do only want one setup in the future.
Of course everything adds value to the setup, and it is true that if I've been using something for 3 years then yea it can be considered a worthy investment. What I'm more worried about is with all the gear options being up in the air still and not properly decided I feel like maybe a smaller mount might be limiting my options vs a larger one. Obviously If the starter setup is complete and enough to cover my needs for 2-3 years then that would be fine, but considering I wanted my setup to be heavier than 5kg from the start I never really considered it. As for resale, I'm sort of a collector of things so even if I had the option to sell it I probably would just keep it even though I am concerned about price now, I rarely end up selling gear I own as I operate under the mentality of you never know when you'll need it. Thank you though I will have to take a look into what I can find.
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2 hours ago, ollypenrice said:
I'm often one of only a few people on threads like this who says, 'Don't bother with the DSLR.' Beginning with a DSLR is not compulsory and, since CMOS is now the top technology, astro-specific CCD cameras have become remarkably cheap on the used market. You would have no trouble finding one for 500 euros and they are so much better than DSLRs, they really are.
Also, you're in Greece, where it is hot. An uncooled camera really is going to struggle where you are.
Olly
I never really considered the cooling factor as a problem as I don't really know what outside temperatures would constitute an issue, usually run about 7 months of 10C> weather here especially at night with summer reaching 30s, kinda went off thinking that should be fine. My main grind with dedicated astro cameras was mostly their fixed nature as in you can only use them with a telescope + power outlet + laptop but I've learned a lot of new information contradicting that here so I'm starting to warm up to the idea. Also felt that a DSLR was a less overwhelming piece of equipment as I've handled some before and thought I'd be better off starting with something familiar.
2 hours ago, pipnina said:That's a very good point. The only reason I suggest a DSLR in this case is because you can't beat the €160 price point on cooled astro equipment, and since the initial budget wasn't mentioned I simply went for the cheapest setup I could conceivably want to image with (and *have* imaged with). At €500 a cooled camera would be 5/6ths of the whole setup I suggested on just the camera.
If their budget was €1000, maybe a 383l or something could be suggested but you need to consider the cost of adapters and power supply and the lens you intend to image with, whereas with a DSLR no such concerns exist as long as you're happy with the provided battery.
low cost astro is a sticky situation but I do believe a DSLR is good enough for people who are starting, at least if budget is a concern. If they have more budget our options for kit to recommend becomes much freer for things us more experienced imagers consider essential.
Yea budgeting is the biggest point really, the lower I could drop the cost of one component the more budget, and shorter wait I'd have for the next. Also I have been having trouble finding second hand markets for anything more than DSLRs meaning all my pricings come from new/retailer sites. When you compare a 280 euro used dslr with lenses vs a 1200euro new astrocam the price gap doesn't seem that appealing but If the price point was at the 500 euro mark then it's a whole different story as realistically with the 280 dslr you'd have to factor in an astromod which would essentially take the price up to the 500s.
2 hours ago, Elp said:I'd second this. There's nothing like actual hand on experience as you'll face issues and understand how to overcome them or what to avoid in future. Too many people ooo and ahhh over decisions rather than going out and doing it, I'd understand if there's resource or time constraints, but in your case I'm guessing you're in it for long term.
You need to have a long hard think. If you want a scope and mount now rather than a camera, you might find you enjoy the visual side more (it's certainly less frustrating).
I mean I would like to think I will continue doing this for a long time, but yea as you say resource and time constraints are a limiting factor. I just would like to be as prepared as possible before getting out there so that I don't end up frustrated and demotivated with my results. Obviously don't expect to go out and grab a masterpiece on the first try but I try to be very well informed about what to expect and what to do as to limit the risk of getting shoddy results due to equipment error. Like if I'd gone ahead and bought a dslr and then found out it gets too hot here to use one and all my pictures are fuzzy and full of noise then that would be on me for not doing better research and I'd feel bad about my choices.
I have never done anything on the visual side before really, I assumed most things are not really visible to the human eye through a telescope and kind of brushed it off as something that I wouldn't enjoy, especially since what I'm really after is those nice and long sessions on nebulae. But I guess it is also a valid consideration assuming I can find a good enough price on a starting set that wouldn't put me off target that much. I also assume that visual would need some extra adaptors and eyepiece to get working with an imaging telescope but still doable?
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2 hours ago, M40 said:
Sorry for confusing things. My current grab and go is heq5 tripod, battery pack, azgti with wedge and dslr but you could swap the dslr for a telescope and phone camera. You could also ditch the battery pack and use internal batteries on the azgti with a traditional camera tripod but I don't think you could start on AP with much less. If you started with dslr on a tripod you would be limited to exposure length so limiting what you can achieve. There are so many options it really is all about what you want to achieve and what can you sell on or take with you on the journey.
I see what you mean yeah, I was kind of going off of the mindset of it's better to get a few seconds with a dslr than a long exposure with a smartphone just based on the pictures I've taken with my smartphone and how much I dislike their quality but I get your point.
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45 minutes ago, pipnina said:
I think it could be a good idea to start small first, then as you say work up.
If you got the initial kit as described you can get going quickly, get several hours of images without needing a laptop or big battery bank (camera and star adventurer run off internal batteries, my SA's AAs lasted for about a year) and once you start upgrading, like you say you can do things like pick up that battery tank and a HEQ5 (maybe stretch to an EQ6-R as it's a good jump up for the price), then replace the camera lens with a telescope, then later again replace the camera with a cooled astrocam.
I think spending several years buying parts that you can't use maybe doesn't make the most sense, but if you get a cheap setup and then slowly replace bits in the right order you'll end up in the same place, but will have been imaging for 2 years instead of collecting cardboard boxes!
Hopefully this makes sense and I'm not waffling haha
The only concern I have is, if I am to buy a piece of gear like the star adventurer costing about 500€ but the a year down the line deciding to upgrade it I will be -500 off the target. The way I am thinking about the setup is, if I am going to do it I might as well do it right instead of needing to constantly upgrade.
In this case the mount has a very small load capacity which makes me concerned about using it in the future with a telescope for example meaning I'd be needing a new one, and this you end up with an old + new cost situation. Of course you could resell but that's again taking a chance that someone will want it (obviously no idea of the market for second hand gear in Europe).
But you do have a point about having things sitting in boxes for years waiting for a setup to be completed. This is why my original plan was DSLR first, mount second, telescope last, meaning everything I got would be used straight away even in a limited capacity. I really do have to find some used prices though because it's a different comparison when you compare it, 500 now and a used heq5 for 800 later for example would still be preferable than 1300 now or 1300+500.
For the power side as I've said it is a concern I'll definitely have to address since getting power in the middle of the mountains is always problematic and a power unit adds extra cost to the setup.
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1 minute ago, pipnina said:
I second this: Only consideration is that it does not include lens.
160 euro + cost of lens + (in my opinion) skywatcher star adventurer and tripod would be a bit over 600 euros total
@Balthazar Saissore Can I ask again if you have a particular budget in mind to get your total equipment setup?
That's a pretty good price indeed, for already astromodified.
The star adventurer seems pretty cheap I'd have to take a look at specs and see if it's future proof enough for my plans.
Realistic budget is around 2-3k for mount, camera, modification, mount and some small peripherals the extended budget that I'd like to keep under in the long term is 5k and by that I mean for the next 2years. Basically was thinking of waiting along for good deals as much as possible working towards an ideal setup over the 2yrs and gathering money on the side.
Ideally I'd like to have a setup with a good eq mount (considering heq5), a telescope (I really liked the William optics zenistar series but pretty influenced by yt on that), a guide scope and guide camera, and a DSLR with plans to expand to a dedicated astro cam beyond the 2yrs mark if I decide I want to delve deeper.
The only thing I was considering buying was an unmodified 700d with 2 lenses 55mm and 300mm for around 280€ or a 750d with a 55mm lens for same price. There are some other contenders but those seem to be the best deals I've found locally.
Obviously nothing is set in stone hence why I'm here asking questions.
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12 minutes ago, Starflyer said:
You could ask if this is still available, it's a good starter camera, already modified, and for a decent price.
https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/398782-astro-modified-canon-eos1100d/
Sorry don't seem to be able to access that post. I'm assuming I need to spend more time in this forum before I can.
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1 hour ago, M40 said:
Hello Balthazar, welcome to the site. You couldn't be more right in saying its overwhelming, thing is with this hobby is there is always something to learn. If you decide to go down the dslr route, have a look at some yt stuff on backyardeos. It's very good. One thing with that is that you will soon learn you need some sort of tracking mount if you are going to get the results you look like you are after, so thats what you need to concentrate on. As Elp said, look at the azgti owners thread and see what has been achieved and what they are using.
Don't forget that you probably already have a very capable camera in your mobile. A few pennies on a specialist app enabling you to fully control your camera could be a very good and cost effective first step. There is also a mobile imaging section on the site so have a look to see exactly what people are achieving.
I bought a used canon eos100D and never got it modified, I believe the mod removes some of the red?? Hopefully someone will correct me, anyway don't worry about getting it modified straight away, obtaining any sort of picture is a phenominal first step.
So my thoughts are look to the mount, use your mobile or dslr and go from there. You will then know what you need to do to move forward. We all start somewhere, personally I started with a dob and mobile phone on the eyepiece. All the best and enjoy.
Interesting, I saw some really nice pictures in that section although I doubt my phone can really take any of similar quality (Xiaomi 11).
So you are suggesting that I'd be better off ignoring the DSLR and try for a mount and telescope first which really opens up possibilities but at the same time moves the goal post a bit further away, meaning I'm assuming I'll have to wait longer to start imaging with a phone than with a DSLR since I'll be needing both mount and scope, which are both pretty big ticket items compared to the camera.
I might try to give it a shot for some night time photography just with the phone and see if I can grab any good pics without investing any in a mount or scope and move on from there, most likely will need a tripod though. I assume there's also apps to increase the functionality of phone camera hopefully.
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9 hours ago, Elp said:
If you want mobile have a look at the azgti owners forum and see what we have been achieving. The more modern model would be the Star Adventurer GTI though I think it's a bit pricy for what it is (same payload as the azgti for example).
For mobile power, a asiair gen 1 and asiair mini can be powered by a usb power bank though you may struggle to power additional kit from the asiair, but it takes the laptop out of the equation. You can also do the same with a raspberry pi with astroberry or Stellarmate installed. A mini pc is also a mobile solution but I'm not familiar with their usage.
The good thing about the azgti is I can power the asiair via something small like a Celestron Lithium LT, and the power the azgti via the asiair 12v outs (not on the gen 1 version), works for around 2-3 hours.
The air ties you to zwo astro cameras and automation equipment however, most popular other manufacturer mounts are supported though as are some Canon, Nikon and now Sony cameras.
I checked the azgti, it looks very compact. I never thought of using a raspberry pi honestly, but it sounds like a solid option I would have to check out.
The asiair looks like a good option for managing everything from your phone if I'm seeing this right which definitely adds to the mobile side.
I think I have to calculate the power usage for my setup before the controller and see what kind of power supply I would need. Primarily if I can power everything but the laptop then I could see me relying on the laptop battery for 3h and then plug-in to an outlet. If on the other hand everything is too power hungry I might have to consider going towards a setup like the one you described and opt for a mobile controller.
There are just so many options to consider about each part of a build that I gets way overwhelming for a beginner.
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53 minutes ago, Elp said:
Try Teleskop Express based in Germany. This forum, if you've gathered enough rep through interaction now also has an EU classifieds used equipment section.
Even if you're in the EU, I'm sure you'll get hit with import duty (if applicable to the item imported) and local taxes anyway due to the values of the items.
I'll give that a look as well thank you.
Luckily no import taxes apply when buying within the EU regardless of item value so it'll be no issue, that's not to say that customs won't decide to check it out thoroughly but in the end it's just a checkup.
53 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:The Dwarf2 (already available) and Seestar S50 (coming soon) are apparently intended for EVA style quick imaging rather than traditional astrophotography. I have done EVA (electronically assisted visual astronomy) with a 102mm f5 achro, ASI224MC camera and EQ5 Synscan mount, + laptop - all gear I had already. The Seestar S50 does the same thing, but in a much smaller and more automated package.
That is a bit confusing, I assume then if you're using software to guide the camera as well as goto etc it would be considered EVA as well? I did check a video out for the dwarf and I can see the quick and easy part for sure.
48 minutes ago, Elp said:They can also be sold on quite easily if deemed not adequate. Also probably the best solution out there if imaging regularly off site as a starting venture, especially if power requirements get factored in.
Yeah from what I saw in reviews just now, the setup is very complete, for 400$ you get a full set of gear.
The power is definitely concern since my laptop is very power hungry and in any setup that required it would mean I need a very powerful mobile power source, not that running a mount and the cameras wouldn't take a toll as well but the PSU for the laptop is 280W.
Having said that, I think based on the quality of the images alone I'd rather hold off and get a proper setup. I mean we've already established that astrophotography just keeps luring you into getting more things, and even with the possibility of reselling it I think it's a valuable tool and something I feel I'd be holding on to or getting once I already had a proper setup and was looking into something more mobile and versatile.
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34 minutes ago, Elp said:
You could try Juan at Cheap Astrophotography. If I were in your position I'd also consider the Dwarf or Seestar.
I will give that site a look thanks for the tip.
As for the dwarf or Seestar, I checked them out, and I don't know something feels off about a system like that of course you have a great deal of experience so I'll definitely be giving that a look, but as they have not come out yet I would wait to see how they fair before actually considering it. I'm just very cautious when it comes to jack of all trades type of machines (which I assume those could be classed as) as I've been burned before by thinking it would be a good choice.
It's hard considering I am not that familiar with all the terminologies therefore my opinion of a camera is biased only by what I hear and not really by any personal experience or knowledge.Edit: I checked Cheap Astrophotography and it seems they have good prices on modifications, that might be tax free since It'd be my camera I'd be sending in, thanks for the tip
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21 minutes ago, Elp said:
Unfortunately AP is not cheap.
You can do it cheaply as ive recommended with a DSLR and normal tripod, but to get good data you do need to up your budget considerably, bare minimum you'd need a star tracker (or can DIY make a barn door tracker) and good tripod (do NOT skimp on the tripod, it's possibly the most important item). If you're using an fov calculator and what you've said, I suspect you're looking to image galaxies. The vast majority of galaxies are small barring around half a dozen, if you want to image the rest will usually require a second setup with a medium to longish focal length. Its best to start in one area and grow from there. There are more good sized nebulae to image rather than galaxies which are possible with camera lens focal lengths.
Another thing you need to realise, if you want good optics, they cost. There's a reason good dslr lenses (or scopes) cost almost as much as or more than camera bodies, but a lot of their cost comes from fast fstops, optical stabilization (which doesn't apply in AP) and longer focal length. Note though, most dslr lenses aren't suited to AP, the Samyang ED range is an exception. Some vintage lenses also work well if you know which ones to look for like Takumars.
As mentioned the Samyang 135 works with astro cams via a lens adaptor, you might also need some extension rings to get the right backspacing distance for the camera to reach focus onto the sensor.
You need to factor in at least 10% of your budget into accessories, cables, fixings and hardware (dovetails, clamps etc). This is before you've factored in some computer camera/plan controller, if you've got a laptop handy you've got freedom to use NINA or equivalent but it's another item to connect up and learn. With a DSLR it's a self contained unit, the only thing you'd have to add is an intervalometer if one isn't built in.
Where are you based, a lot of reputable astronomy sellers ship internationally. As mentioned also you don't need to buy new, you save so much buying from genuine astronomy users.
I'd suggest you look at a few YT videos, many people on there show their setups and what they image with them.
Yup totally understandable, this is just a portion of the setup I'd like just enough to get started into taking pictures really. My plan is to get a telescope, a goto mount (heq5 seems to be the top contender) , and a guidance system to track via a smaller telescope (I assume that's what it's called but not sure). It's just that I can't spend everything at once so I'm compartmentalizing it to be able to get some use.
I did not actually know that some lenses are not suited to astrophotography or that they can be added to astrocams this adds a few possibilities of course. I have also allocated some money for cabling and assorted gear like boxes, cases etc. although one particular concern I had was the power supply since I don't have a backyard and will need to be far away from any power outlets.
I'm currently based in Greece, there is one shop here that has a range of items, and then the other one I've been browsing is astroshop eu . The big issue I've been facing is the import fees anything imported outside of the eu will have a pretty hefty import tax that would make it unreasonably expensive and most likely increase the chance of damage to the item or it being lost. Basically if I order something from the UK or US directly to Greece I have to pay vat on it's original msrp, and the item will be stuck in customs for quite a while. If I find something of great value of course I could probably sort something out where I personally pick it up from the UK for example but yea you get the gist. That's why I've stayed on retail shops and only eu based so far.
Yeah YT has pretty much been my main source of information and ideas for the past years but as I've come to know, many times it's better to ask people than trust influencers I came here for a more concise source of info
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57 minutes ago, pipnina said:
I think to a certain extent, when starting out, the best AP equipment is the stuff you already have!
I've taken passable astro photos (as well as others here) on my Google Pixel 6 phone! It takes more effort but you will always run up against the cost vs performance paradox.
If you could outline the rough total amount of money you would want to spend on the whole setup, it would be easy to work out a few (relatively) inexpensive options for you!
If we say 600 euros is your total, you might look at something like a mk1 star adventurer, plus a tripod (I use a manfrotto 055, but that is a bit pricy, as long as you get something rigid it should be ok!), you will by this point probably need to settle for a DSLR + kit lens.
I see skywatcher sells a tripod specifically for the SA now, both the SA kit and tripod together come to about £430 (not sure how much for in europe). This would leave about £170 for the camera and lens, a bit of a squeeze! You could potentially get a canon 1200d for this however... Relatively modern DSLR with an ok kit lens.
Certainly a setup like that can do fairly well, given some processing and a fair bit of exposure time.
I captured this years ago on a Nikon D3200 on a star adventurer, but i forget how much exposure time:
This was before any processing, at the widest fov I think (18mm). Don't ask me about the framing, I don't remember taking the shot! haha.
You can see orion clearly and there's some flame nebula... maybe a bit of horsy shining through as well?
I re-processed it when I bought PixInsight and the hidden details it brought out of this super-cheap setup (My D3200 was also unmodified and second hand) was stunning. I think some people can achieve similar processing results with free tools like siril but I have never tried it.
In this process of the same image, suddenly we see milky way dust lanes, much more pronounced nebulae in orion, maybe a bit of barnard's loop? (!) and the rosette appears as well.
You might outgrow this kit lens fast, but once you have your feet on the ground with this you can switch it out for something like a 100mm-ish lens that runs faster. I captured this on the same setup, but replacing my 18-55mm kit lens with a sigma 105mm f2.8 macro:
Again this is a reprocess in pixinsight, but it's original data from a Nikon D3200, star adventurer on a tripod and a lens I bought a year or so after getting the star adventurer.
At this time my camera was NOT astro modified! So all that hydrogen is in spite of the filter being in place.
I did modify my D3200 eventually... However despite it initially being a success I did manage to disrupt the camera, it really is quite fiddly to get one of these things apart AND back together again!
After modifying I did get some very nice looking nebulae, but the camera developed a bit of a banding effect (you can see two wide darkening lines going horizontally). If you decide to mod the camera, do so if you know you can afford to replace or upgrade if it goes wrong!
I hope this helps inspire some confidence, as it is very challenging to get into AP on a sub £1k budget, but I think even a basic setup as described will get you hooked, and there is a lot of room to improve even on just the star adventurer mount (mostly via lens upgrades).
good luck and have fun!
Those are some awesome pictures for sure and it's great to see the progression over the years through improving techniques I hope to also end up doing as well. Unfortunately gear I already have is a phone with a camera that I doubt is any good, I've tried taking long exposure night photos with it and it just looks very weird
Obviously I didn't do any postprocessing to these, but this was in the desert with iso as low as I could take it and pretty long exposures for a phone and I just felt that most likely there is something wrong with the phone, I fiddled with the settings and those 2 are the only viable pictures everything else is either too dark or too light polluted.
I am quite scared to perform a modification myself, but I've heard of a store in italy that will do it for 200€ and 1-2 months of processing and shipping back and forth so was considering that as an option but as I'll be without a camera for that entire duration I was trying to leverage how important astromods were and if so if I could find some place that sells them cheaper than astroshop since I am not willing to bay 1.4k for an astromodified 850d, not because I want that model but because out of all the ones they sell that's the only one that appealed to me.
Realistically what I'm looking at is getting a used DSLR and a very basic tripod for a total of around 200€-300€ and then in the future sending it to italy to get modified with a baader filter (at least that's what I chose after reading a bit about the different astromods I don't really know if it's the best). I thought of maybe going straight to astrocams but I feel like I either have to be super lucky on everything and find everything used in a good condition and cheap to even get my setup under 2k with one. I would say I definitely need to do more research though.-
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1 hour ago, Dazzyt66 said:
@Balthazar Saissore you don’t really need to get a telescope if you go down the DSLR route. You can get some pretty impressive DSO imaging done with stock lenses. There is loads of info on here and other sources (YouTube etc.) on how to do this. The most important thing is the mount you will need, depending on how seriously you want to go. I image with a modified DSLR and an HEQ5 mount and get sufficiently good images for my liking. Everyone is different though. I don’t use fancy lenses, I buy used M42 from eBay and use with an adaptor on a modified Canon 1100d.
Starting out this way is relatively cheap for AP and gets you used to the whole process from capturing to processing. You can then decide to expand as you wish.
Hope that helps.
Daz
I thought with DSLR you could only do very wide field photography making pictures of most deep sky objects impossible to capture without some pretty heavy lenses. By that I mean I've been using the astronomy tools field of view calculator to actually see what I would need to get a view I would be satisfied with in my photos and what I ended up thinking was that if I went the DSLR route and went with lenses then later on switching to a dedicated astrocam would require me to get a telescope as well.
While I do enjoy the idea of being versatile and having the ability to take wide pics as well as more zoomed in ones, the used cameras I have currently found all come with either 55mm lenses or none at all meaning I would have to spend at least another 200€-300€ to get a new lens (going off of what I can see as new prices for 135mm and 250mm lenses) which would eventually be cutting a big chunk of what I could be saving towards a telescope.With regards to the mount, I too have been looking towards the HEQ5 although the price tag is pretty steep and I have not found any used options meaning I have to wait until I can gather upwards of 1000€ to get it and I kind of opted for leaving that for later
Might be wise to add that I don't have the greatest experience with ebay, and it costs a lot to get stuff in from outside of europe but I'd have to take a look to see if I can find things a bit cheaper there.
1 hour ago, Elp said:To take truly good deep sky you need:
A. The equipment to ensure little issues (you will encounter issues), and good equipment to encounter minimal issues usually costs.
B. Good post processing skills, I'd say 60-70% plus in getting a good image is post processing skills.
Now, it's not to say you cannot do it on a budget, when I started I used a simple compact camera which could take 30s images in raw and just used a photo tripod. Yes the images were noisy, full of coma on the stars, but I was glad I could image the milky way and even got Andromeda (tiny in the frame) and a meteor in the same shot, still like that image to this day.
Going deeper or more zoomed in requires more investment. But you can start with a modified dslr and a good lens, plus a star tracker and a decent tripod. Dslr I went with a stage 1 mod (IR filter removed only) Canon 600D as I liked the articulated screen (trust me). Star tracker I went with the Skywatcher Star Adventurer (standard one non goto).
A DSLR is a good start, but they can be noisy (remember no cooling), calibration frames sometimes difficult depending on the camera and ultimately their quantum efficiency isn't as high as a dedicated astro camera. Soon after I got a cooled astro camera and still use the same one. There's still noise but it's much finer. All astro photos have a noise reduction applied to the images to make them smooth, so don't expect that from your raw images.
The SA was soon replaced with an azgti as it was still compact but had goto. Then it was converted to EQ mode so more expense.
The general trend for AP is you will spend more and more money and there really isn't a limit as you're always looking for the next "upgrade" which usually doesn't add to the end result dramatically.
The one item I would wholeheartedly recommend whether you do go dslr or astro cam (you can use it for both) is a Samyang 135mm F2/T2.2 lens, one of the finest pieces of equipment I've ever used. You'll be limited in focal length but the quality and speed is excellent.
For a dedicated astro camera you don't necessarily need to go cooled either, I use uncooled ones regularly for deep sky (modern CMOS ones).
You can start with just the camera and a widefield lens and try with that, though you'll likely be limited to around 10s exposures per image. If you get results then slowly upgrade. Minimal spend for a goto camera starter rig I'd say 1000 if you're very frugal and lucky to find the equipment used, to 2000 depending on what you choose.
If you want to keep it simpler still, consider the fairly new Dwarflabs Dwarf2, or the soon to be released ZWO Seestar, they will eventually have their limitations for your usage but they are priced competitively for all in one packages.
What I seem to be confused about is whether you can use a normal DSLR lens, like the Samyang you've recommended, both on an astrocamera and a DSLR, I've been operating under the assumption that this is not possible. Also if that is the case I mean this lens (as it shows up on market here) is about 600€ which is pretty steep for a lens considering I could definitely get a telescope for that much, I wouldn't say it'd be pushing me out of budget but I have to sort of strategically run through my list of things I'd like and kind of pick and choose where I'll save.
I'd say I definitely understand the spending frenzy that comes with a hobby like this, doubt I've had any hobby so far that didn't come with constant mood of "ooh shinny", but I've set a budget of about 2k as a reasonable goal, the most problematic items being the telescope and goto mount, which together on their own would set me back 2k and are impossible to find used (here at least) or order from abroad due to weight. I've already started thinking about more and more upgrades I could make to my setup based on what looks cool but I do realize that my ideal budget of 5k is not a good idea for now. Hence why I went with the idea of getting a DSLR first since it would offer some minimal ability to get started and mitigate the insatiable desire to go out and start taking pictures without requiring me to commit the entire sum straight up, like a 300€ camera with a 55mm lens should be good enough to keep me occupied and honing my skills until I can afford to get the mount and then the telescope (I think at least) do you think I'm approaching this wrong?
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Hi all, I have been circling around the idea of getting started with astrophotography for about a year now and I think I'm finally ready for making my first equipment purchase.
I'm greatly interested capturing in deep sky objects and specifically nebulae, although as I've only seen other people's images I hope i can actually pull it off.
I'm leaning towards getting a DSLR since it's a low cost option and offers versatility but there are so many different options between that and dedicated astro cameras that it's really hard to decide on a specific thing.
The most important factor I keep hearing is getting your DSLR astromodified but once again there is a variety of options.
So my question is, assuming I have the option to get a DSLR from (60d, 700,750d,800d) for pretty cheap (200€-300€) how much of a difference would it make to get it astromodified (with extra cost and hassle) and then which modification would be more fitting (baader, UV/IR, full spectrum etc.)
Also assuming the above, would it be more prudent to spend the 600€ to get a dedicated astro cam instead, knowing I would have to wait until I get a telescope as well before I can start taking pictures?
Thank you for any help you can provide.
Ps. I live in Europe and the used astro market is pretty limited in my country so I'm also open to any suggestions for second hand stores on the EU side.
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Help with different camera options for a beginner
in Getting Started Equipment Help and Advice
Posted
Yeah heh I think Saudi is definitely a tad hotter than here. At night I can definitely keep it below 20c for most of the year.
Those are some nice pictures, I'd definitely like to have an astromodded dslr for getting amazing colours but yeah in the end it will most likely have to depend on how cheap a DSLR with astromod will be compared to a cooled camera.
I think I agree for the heq5 though, will have to wait a bit longer but it kind of covers my needs pretty well, although in a moment of weakness I think I could settle for the eq5 as well.
Yea that sounds pretty straightforward for a DIY build, seems like an interesting alternative to buying something ready made, but I think it's something of a later addition rather than a priority anyway. There's already a ton of equipment and procedures I'll need to acquaint myself with before counting automations such as these. Thank you for sharing though, will definitely keep it in mind.
Yea pi's are kind of overpriced I tend to look at clones for anything I wanna do in that regard, although even then most usecases are pretty dedicated to specific things so unless I had a bunch of different usecases to experiment with I doubt I'd make the move to buy one to try out.