Astro Imaging....A Progression ?

[ZOG]

Let me start by saying I have nothing but respect to the imaging guys. The hard work and long hours that they put into their chosen path has given me and thousands of others a chance to see things that would otherwise have appeared as a faint blur in the eyepiece or indeed not be visible at all.

The problem I have is with a phrase that I'm seeing used more and more and that phrase is "Progressing into astro imaging"

Astronomers have never had it so good and with the advent of highly accurate go to systems, CCD cameras, webcams, computer software and ever improving optics we are now in a position where virtually anyone with sufficient funds and little astronomical knowledge can, with the help of a good book, produce these images.

I dont see anything wrong with that if thats what you want to do. The question is, is astro imaging still a branch of astronomy, is it now a branch of photography with the scope being merely used as a high mag telephoto lense, or is it evolving into it's own discipline ?

Is it fair to use the word progression ? There are those who will argue that pure astronomy is searching the sky with your scope to find the targets manually, there are others who will say that anything that helps you to find a target such as go to systems are the greatest thing since sliced bread (personally I like go to and if Charles Messier had been around today his catalogue would be enormous).

There is no getting away from the fact though that some of the beautiful images we see, here and elsewhere can give newcomers to the hobby a false impression of what can be seen at the eyepiece and a greater danger that folk coming into the hobby will be dissapointed at the views that they can achieve and confine their scopes to the back of the shed.

I dont want to start an argument here between the imagers and the visual observers, but I have been thinking a lot about this lately. I cant see Andromeda or M42 anything like as clear as the images posted on the forum.

I'll be very interested in hearing your responses.

[geppetto]

I cant see Andromeda or M42 anything like as clear as the images posted on the forum.

Simply put, that is why I do some imaging.

Can't see stuff very well by observing due to my light pollution.

Each to his own though, I tend to do stuff that is fun for me and

I try not to get into the astronomy political correctness

[Kain]

I mainly do visual stuff as I can't afford all he fancy gizmo's to aid with imaging. I find all my targets etc using star charts and star hopping - no GOTO for me lol.

I would love to be able to afford to do imaging, but I suppose never say never!

Kain

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

When I look through my 'scope I can see next to nothing. M1 just plain isn't there for example when I peer down the hole but with a Ha filter and a CCD I can make the thing appear as if from nowhere on the computer screen. Takes an hour or two mind you but I was watching telly while the stuff was whirring away last night.

As to labeling what it is that I do, I don't call it astronomy or astrophotography, I call it playing. I know what you mean about the names though, astronomy is a science and is serious stuff, so I wouldn't want to pull astronomers down to my level by pretending that I'm one of them.

Very bright things like M13, M31, M42, M81 etc I can see through my 'scope, but only just, so I don't do it. Light pollution is so bad around my shed that I've no need for lights inside it at night, but filters and CCDs can make it all work. I suspect I might as well do it on a simulator and nick the images off the internet.

I'll never forget the shock of my first DSLR shot that worked, I was gobsmacked. I'd had the 'scope a few days and got to grips with the goto thing. Told it to go places and it whizzed about and said "beep". Peering down the hole showed me nothing except some stars when there was supposed to be a great big galaxy there. Stuck on the DSLR and did a minute or so exposure and blow me down with a feather, the preview screen lit up with a real life picture of a galaxy on it. That's why I do imaging. If it ever gets dark I might progress into visual.

Captain Chaos

[lunator]

Zog

I am mainly into visual observing with my particular area being double stars.

I do a little afocal imaging using my 2 cameras. a compact & a fixed lens DSLR. The images are very close to what you see visually, just look at my pics of M34/M35 & M1.

I am happy doing this at the moment and have no plans to invest in a major imaging setup, but I am very grateful that there are guys on this forum who have gone down this path and I can enjoy the images they spend many hours creating.

I think the word prgression is used because prople realise that imaging takes time and effort to develop the skills to do it. I have progressed in double star observation & measurement and this is a very specialised part of astronomy but is is still astronomy.

With regards to false impressions due to the 'hubble' factor, someone new to astronomy will have seen many images books etc that could create this and I don't think images here would change that. I rather think that as people view the images here and read the explanations of how the images were obtained it would show them that these images are not a case of just pointing a camera down the eyepiece and snapping away but created dedicated amateurs.

Rgds

ian

[Alan D]

Zog

A very good topic to raise. I echo C.C. in the reasons for dabbling in imaging. I was just not getting views of the objects I wanted to see from my light polluted skies here in Nottingham. I was also spending loads of time trying to find those near invisible objects only to get the frustration of cloud coming in just as I found one. So yes I have upgraded to a Goto which for me is making an observing/Imaging session more enjoyable.

As far as the point of "progressing to imaging" I look on it as another branch of Astronomy that you dabble in, not to a level higher as the word progression seems to indicate but just another aspect of this great hobby. For me like C.C it was a great feeling when I looked at images of M42 taken by me on my little 350d for the first time So whatever our particular branch of Astronomy that we focus on the main thing is enjoy the hobby and pass on any help you can.

Cheers

Alan D

[ZOG]

Great stuff lads, I love debate. Keep it coming please.

[anthony]

Visual is superb,

Imaging is superb.

I can see sod all from where I am - well maybe not as bad as that. Planets, moon, solar, clusters, doubles are great visual targets. M27, M57, M31 are all only just there in the eyepiece. I have seen dust lanes in galaxies through a big scope from a dark site and been amazed. I have counted the Messier objects from a dark site naked eye. I have also run up and down the garden after seeing the horsehead and flame nebula appear on my pc.

I think "progressing" in this context has to mean that you are only taking a step into another area of the hobby. I'd like to progress to double star work, sketching lunar eyepeice views etc. At present I am 90% taking picture and 10% visual, though I love both. There is no doubt that imaging has been a more significant challenge in many ways than visual, both have given great pleasure.

I hope that very few astronmers who image the heavens, ( ), will consider astrophotography as the next level up. I am an astronomer who gets more out of the hobby at present by imaging due to local sky brightness.

Anthony

[magician]

When I come back from a Holiday, I really enjoy looking at the pictures I've taken, my so called 'Imaging' lets me enjoy again where I have been to 'Out There' its a .little more complicated than shootng landscapes,or castles Etc., but the enoyment is the same

Cheers Frank

[FLO]

The problem I have is with a phrase that I'm seeing used more and more and that phrase is "Progressing into astro imaging"

Is it fair to use the word progression ?

I guess it depends on who is using the word and in which context.

If it is a dealer - an experienced astronomer/customer progressing into astro-imaging will begin a whole new round of purchasing. (Whereas a new astronomer buying his first telescope specifically for imaging has a higher risk of leaving the hobby, through frustration, in the early stages!)

If an astronomer uses the phrase then I guess it is because he wants to achieve something that cannot be done without imaging, i.e. to see colour in nebulae or detail only visible at certain wavelengths. Or, perhaps he just enjoys a challenge and has deep pockets.

[MartinB]

A very valid point Zog. The big problem with the sort of imaging I do is that it really stuffs doing good visual stuff. I can set up my 2 mounts and have one for imaging and the other for visual. I can then have a star gaze whilst the imaging scope gathers data. My problem is the laptop just ruins my night vision. I need to get some red transparent film to put over the screen, after I've done the focussing I guess.

Astronomy is a broad hobby. I like finding things with a non goto mount when doing visual stuff. When I am imaging I hate wasting time hunting around for things. It is enjoyable spending a lot of time at the EP shading myself from any light and just trying to see how much I can discern. Having a good knowledge of some targets I have imaged actually helps me observing. Sometimes I just want to race around spotting as much as I can. But then I guess many astronomers progress into areas that rock their boat - scientific stuff, super nova hunting, doubles, lunar, solar, drawing.

I think imaging will draw people into the hobby and it isn't necessarily true that it is more expensive. If visual is your thing you will want the best kit you can afford - so televue UWA's, high end apos and the like.

The imaging kit can also be used as an alternative way of observing if using a laptop. Line up on M81. Have a peak through the EP for a bit, then drop in the camera, then focus. The excitement of seeing an object come into view has never left me. Even a short 10 sec exposure has the wow factor. Great if you are showing non astronomers and a lot of fun for any of us.

[anthony]

I need to get some red transparent film to put over the screen, after I've done the focussing I guess.

I use an old red plastic bag from some department store or other, just taped over the edges. If fussy, I'll put whatever progrm on to "red". Highly recommended and, well, they last forever!

Apologies for the off topic drift

More on topic though, I too will have a mount up for visual at the same time as imaging. If, of course, family life allows. One benefit of setting up a run of exposures is that I can be in doing kids bath time, saying hello to the wife etc whilst I am actively gathering data. Lots of time spent in the garden does get a bit of an issue at times.

On topic though - anyone got an idea of the trend in professional astronomy. I get the impression that more often than not, they are sat behind a pc when active with a telescope, rather than at the eyepeice. Is it just our hobby taking advantage of the progression in technology to enjoy some aspects of it more, (at the same time technology lights up the night time sky :?)

What about mintron cameras and the like - their purpose seems to be to electronically capture and present on screen in almost real time what we'd like to see in the eyepeice!

Anthony

[MartinB]

Thanks Ant, I'm using shops with red carrier bags from now on. I use night vision modes but theres always some blue and white left somewhere!

Would love to have a go with one of those Watecs

[dazza1639]

All the night vision preserving filter you could ever want for £4.69

http://www.mayfairstationers.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=762

[anthony]

Now that is a worthy link. Cheap too. Enough for the neighbours windows?

Anthony

[Andrew*]

I used a malt toffee (hate those ones!!) quality street wrapper for my head torch! Wouldn't do for a laptop screen though...

Andrew

[CELESCOPE]

Well this is a good subject indeed , ok I use the term Progress, relating to myself really , progress in how I have come on as far as imaging goes , I gave viewing a good airing I think, learning the sky for maybe 4 years , the trouble I found was as I read all the books ,and I have many, they all said you can see this Bla Bla Bla , in fact I could hardly see anything at first , granted this improved big time when I got the GPS 8 , but then a camera called the Mintron came out , see it live on your TV, so I went and bought one , this was great seeing things I could not see through the eyepiece , but then I started wanting to image ,tried it with the mintron , but they were rubbish , until I spotted the web cams , bought one, and started on the Planets , my first Saturn blew me away , it can be seen on the Modern Astronomy page , this was a number of years ago , I really had the bug now and progressed onto modded web cams , then from there I,m now on the Atik 16hr CCD , so the progress is there in front of me , getting the expensive ccd does not always mean you will get good images , I have seen many fall by the way side , it does take a lot of time and patients, and a lot is finally in the processing of the images ,this can take years to get right , but it is nice to see how the nebs look through long exposure camera,s , I mainly do B/W, colour is ok , but it has gone a bit silly now I think ,with the use of different filters giving off different colours, this is great for some ppl , who love to see the colour , I still prefer the good ole black and white , but will continue with colour in and out ,cus I know some ppl like that , now I,m searching deeper and finding those nebs they we don’t see, lets see what else is up there ,SEE!! Progression in locating different tobjects ,

Roger goes where no one boldly tries .

Watch this space

Hows about that then guys and gals

[Andrew*]

Hows about that then guys and gals

great stuff!

I wonder how many people here will take your path, and what technology will become available to them in years to come.

Andrew

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

I wonder how many people here will take your path, and what technology will become available to them in years to come.

Andrew

Me!

Captain Chaos

[barkis]

There is no doubt that imaging was, and still is a medium for discovery in astronomy. The discovery of Pluto, sadly demoted from planetary status, only discovered by blink photometry. I know thing have moved on a pace when it comes to sophisticated detection methods, but I am sure there is still a role for the amateur in the field of supernova discoveries. Trans Neptunian objects and that kind of endeavour.

And don't forget the would be earth destroyer, that could come in from the Oort Cloud, that spherical shell of debris could fire one at us from any direction, not as easy to spot as the ones coming in from the Kuiper belt. It is more than likely that a dedicated amateur astrophotographer is going to provide that very necessary early warning.

This may sound like science fiction, but it aint.

Barkis.

[ZOG]

Roger :hello1: :hello1: :hello1: