Where does space end?!

[vulcan]

In the beginning, there was hydrogen - and it was everywhere. The concept of entrophy suggest that, in the end, the universe will 'wear out' but, I was always taught, that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only change state. Are we going to revert to a state where there is just hydrogen everywhere - and the whole thing starts again - and always has?

[scogyrd]

Space doesn't end, it's turtles all the way down!

[Defender]

In the beginning, there was hydrogen - and it was everywhere. The concept of entrophy suggest that, in the end, the universe will 'wear out' but, I was always taught, that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only change state. Are we going to revert to a state where there is just hydrogen everywhere - and the whole thing starts again - and always has?

Matter cartainly dissapears though, especialy when my mrs goes shopping, matter (money) vanishes without trace.

I believe black holes hold the key to our existance, them and maybe the unproven white hole theory, if the white hole theory is correct it can explain the big bang, i believe the big bang is a cycle too, when all the black holes in the universe get their fill the process starts all over again. IMO.

[vulcan]

Space doesn't end, it's turtles all the way down!

I think that you are confusing 'Space' with 'the World'. It was indeed thought that the (flat) Earth was mounted atop turtles and elephants.

I think that our current concepts of space/time are probably just as naive.

[vulcan]

Matter cartainly dissapears though, especialy when my mrs goes shopping, matter (money) vanishes without trace.

That's my whole point though. The money doesn't actually dissapear, although you no longer have it, somebody else has it. It has simply changed state (of ownership). Your money has turned into Marks and Spencer money (tell me about it!).

[scogyrd]

I think that you are confusing 'Space' with 'the World'. It was indeed thought that the (flat) Earth was mounted atop turtles and elephants.

I think that our current concepts of space/time are probably just as naive.

I'm not confusing anything: the universe is sitting on a turtle, it's a 4 dimensional hyper-turtle that extends in all directions and, I submit this as evidence (although not proof), it's huge mass is what is responsible for dark energy.

And it's turtles all the way down!

[vulcan]

Some day, when all our minds are melded by the 'physcho-net' and we achieve the collective intelligence of ants and the entire thing is augmented by impossibly fast and powerful computers, we will look back and see how ridiculous our primitive thoughts were. Until then, there is beer!

[vulcan]

I'm not confusing anything: the universe is sitting on a turtle, it's a 4 dimensional hyper-turtle that extends in all directions and, I submit this as evidence (although not proof), it's huge mass is what is responsible for dark energy.

And it's turtles all the way down!

Fair enough. We will file you under 'turtles' then.

[r.t.swing]

Where does space end?

Same place as our imagination.

[ollypenrice]

Now you can see how religion came about. It is much easier to 'believe' than it is to 'think'.

You could get into trouble for that but I think it is a memorable phrase!

Olly

[mdstuart]

Perhaps the problem is with the word End. Its a bit like the words start and before and after. They are human words to describe what we see and time. Things have a start and end and occur before and after as we see it.

Einstein showed us that time is not as we understand it so if you go at the speed of light all the concept we hold dear go out of the window.

I think the issue is our understanding is limited to what we can see and our experience.

I wonder what our goldfish think about what it would be like outside the tank.

I see many of you suggesting a drink is the way to cope with the fact that its mind blowing...Well I cope with the fact I cannot understand it by having a faith that there is someone who does...

I am just amazed at how much we do understand though. Only 100 years ago they did not appreciate there are galaxies outside the milky way. I count it a real privilage to have a telecope which has allowed me to see over 400 external galaxies and to have some appreciation of the billions of stars and thousand of light years that I am able to view..

So I do not think there was a start or there will be an end but I am enjoying this bit in the middle!

Mark

[Ursa Major]

Worms know nothing of how television works. Why can't mankind just accept that there are things beyond comprehension and sit back and enjoy the show?

I love this idea. it made me laugh alot.

[x6gas]

In the beginning, there was hydrogen - and it was everywhere. The concept of entrophy suggest that, in the end, the universe will 'wear out' but, I was always taught, that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only change state. Are we going to revert to a state where there is just hydrogen everywhere - and the whole thing starts again - and always has?

Not quite.

It's energy that cannot be created or destroyed. Matter is a form of energy (hence e=mc^2). You can turn matter into other types of energy and vice versa but matter is always energy tho' energy is not always matter.

And I don't know of any credible current scientific theory that suggests that in the beginning there was hydrogen - or that that is where it will end. My understanding of current theory is that in the end there will just be evenly distributed energy throughout the universe. At that point entropy will be unable to increase and what we call time (a construct of increasing entropy) will therefore stop.

[chiltonstar]

The most certain conclusion to be drawn from the comments in this thread is that the weather hasn't been too good, even in France.....

Chris

[Si W]

One theory is that if you could see far enough, you would eventual see the back of you own head .

[ollypenrice]

The most certain conclusion to be drawn from the comments in this thread is that the weather hasn't been too good, even in France.....

Chris

On the contrary, it has been, and is, excellent! It is the moon that leaves me with sufficient energy to ponder the imponderable...

Olly

[chiltonstar]

Ah! of course, the Moon. Still, as TS Eliot wrote....La lune ne garde aucune rancune.

Chris

[rory]

the whole universe is simply a cell in the body of...something. if we could escape our universe,we'd move on to another (cell) and this would continue for trillions of universes. where we make up some kind of being.

this being in turn is one of billions of beings who live in a universe ,which again is one of trillions of universes,and so it goes on.

god im sooo weird in my thinking !

but in truth i really think were a tiny part of much larger structures that were to tiny to understand.

nurse...NURSE, WHERES MY PILLS...?

[ollypenrice]

the whole universe is simply a cell in the body of...something. if we could escape our universe,we'd move on to another (cell) and this would continue for trillions of universes. where we make up some kind of being.

this being in turn is one of billions of beings who live in a universe ,which again is one of trillions of universes,and so it goes on.

god im sooo weird in my thinking !

but in truth i really think were a tiny part of much larger structures that were to tiny to understand.

nurse...NURSE, WHERES MY PILLS...?

This seems entirely reasonable to me, though it is hard to know how one might prove it!!!

Olly

[carpman]

Well if we dont know where space ends do we know where it begins LOL

After reading through this tread it has started me thinking again of ------

i have a wierd thinking since seeing the matrix that we the collective may not even be real .... I think / feel that we are all part of somebody elses dreams , my reasoning is this initially started by the above , when we dream we think our dreams are real so if thats the case are the people we dream about are those real ? have they got lives while we sleep .....

I dont know but i do think about it ...

Dan

[mikeknowle]

the whole universe is simply a cell in the body of...something. if we could escape our universe,we'd move on to another (cell) and this would continue for trillions of universes. where we make up some kind of being.

There's that superb opening SIMPSONS sequence where the atomic nucleus becomes a planet orbiting a star, zooming back into a galaxy, zooming back again and again and again into a cell nucleus and then into a hair on Homer's head.

Excellent!

[spaceboy]

I think my answer to where dose the universe end would be to consider what is the most common thing in life? Death! No matter what exists it will at some point perish. Solid steel will rust away, rock will crumble to dust, suns will explode and black holes will even absorb galaxies. Death is something that can be considered a true constant amongst all the chaos. When we are asked what death is we relate to it as being nothingness. Anyone who has experienced general anesthetic has a rough idea of what this is. I think the same can be considered for the edges of the universe. After all everything must die. Brian cox is a well respected professor and in the "wonders of the universe" series pointed out that at some point the universe as we know it will exist no more. Everything in life is imperminate and only when some thing ceases to exist dose it become infinitely permanent. The edge of the universe could be considered as death (nothingness) closing in like a lit match slowly burning out. The edge of the universe can be thought of as being infinite in this way. As living beings we could never truly comprehend or want to accept this as being the case but one day we will all to become infinite.

[Trull]

The thing that interests me is that Hubble discovered that there is a rate of expansion of the Universe, and we now know (reasonably well anyway) that this rate is increasing. So, eventually the Universe will be come so large and diffuse that individual atomic nuclei will be ripped open... er I think... I'm off for some uisge beatha...

[li'l john]

Space doesn't seem to have a boundary and for me that makes it ungraspable to the human mind. Looking at it this way saves on headaches!

[spaceboy]

Our minds find such things hard to grasp because we are bound by our senses. We can only contemplate what we see, hear, smell, touch and taste. Our minds perceive and calculate based on what we interact with. Some cleaver chappies can go beyond this to a degree with mathematical equations but this is still relies on a form of interaction and is often beyond being put in to practice and will only ever be considered theories. Familiarity can also add to confusion. We often say if it has a beginning must have a boundary or end....but beyond this there must also be another beginning ? As pointed out in my post earlier the only exception to the rule is death. Religions have their beliefs, biologists have theirs but non the less no-one can say they have come back from the dead. Even though we understand the factors of death on earth we have no way of grasping the grander scale of things to how something as vast as a universe could ever die. Surly this must last forever ?? but I say how can it ? We cannot perceive death as to do this we would have to be dead and if you are dead you'd have no form of perception anyway. None the less no-one can say that death isn't fact. It is simply impossible for anything tangible to last forever. We see this fact all the time all around us. Every thing is in a constant slow state of decay. How can the universe be an exception to this rule? Argue that there has to be a boundary to the universe but explain what would be the other side of that boundary? you could only say infinity. I say what is infinite ? We find it so hard to understand but the answers are right in front of us. Answers often so obvious we over look them or ignore them through fear. Someone mentioned the universe is expanding but again in to what? Who knows??? maybe this is how the universe dies? like a giant balloon expanding and POP! it is consumed by that what is around it. We can all hazard a guess at what's out there but acceptance that it is beyond our capabilities to ever know for sure is often the best answer to the question. I may come across as all doom and gloom but it is human nature to have aversion to death and see talking about it as depressing. It would be wrong for our aversion to cause ignorance to how death (infinity) plays it's part.