Which APO ?

[FLO]

The WO110 would be suitable but I seem to recall asking about this once and being advised a little against it by, I think, FLO. Basically good but not a good as others in the range. Cannot recall why.

That wasn't the FLT-110 triplet, it was the Megrez-110 doublet. It's lens cell was prone to misalignment. The FLT 110 is excellent, particularly the latest version, with none of the batch variations associated with cheaper rebranded refracters.

Tony, the drawtube on your Zenithstar-110 was longer than the FLT-110 so more prone to flex. Also, William Optics offer a purpose-made 2-inch Extender FLT for the FLT-110 which lengthens the body for imaging.

HTH,

Steve

[Whippy]

Tony, the drawtube on your Zenithstar-110 was longer than the FLT-110 so more prone to flex. Also, William Optics offer a purpose-made 2-inch Extender FLT for the FLT-110 which lengthens the body for imaging.

IIRC Steve it wasn't the drawtube that was the issue. I had to use 50mm and 80mm extension tubes plus rack the focuser out a long way for my Atik to achieve focus. That'd cause flex!

Tony..

[FLO]

I think that is what I was trying to say Tony, albeit not very well

When the FLT-110 is setup for imaging, there is less drawtube/spacer/whatever length hanging off the back so less flexure. Looking at the design, I think your Zenithstar-110 was intended primarily for visual use.

[Whippy]

Undoubtedly Steve, had the ZS110 had a longer tube like the FLT I'd never have got rid of it!. Fantastic scope but square pegs, round holes.....

Tony..

[Capricorn]

Mel, what is it that you want?

If a small scope that you can transport easier and use more often is a 127 scope weighing in at around 25 lb really what suits?

You would have everything in a case, using the TS 127 as typical, but you still have the mount, HEQ5 and the mount weights.

If size/weight/transportability is the issue then you will have to give up the Aperture is everything thoughts. You don't get small large aperture scopes.

What is the intended use of the new scope?

Where is it to be used?

If the idea is to get a smaller scope that can be used more often then you are not going to use one at all 5 nights of the week if you are in work. So that leaves just 2 nights.

On those 2 nights you have to be in the mood, able to get out, no wild partying, and the skies need to be clear.

That just is not going to happen all that often. That I suspect is why you are considering this change now. A smaller scope will not magically make it clear at the right times.

So tying up a lot of money in a very nice large aperture refractor that will most often sit around being decorative is not going to make you happy. That is why I have not run out and bought the 127 TS offerings or the new WO megrez 120. Would love one, have the money, but I know I will get close to no chance of using one for some months. I may however get an 80mm just in case the skies clear one Friday/Saturday night.

80mm in case in one hand, EQ5 in the other.

[Astro_Baby]

Well I will try and explain my thinking.

To date this year I have observed once for two hours. When I get in from work having been up since 5am and getting home at 7pm I am hot, tired, thirsty and generally somewhat emotional (my job creates stress thats probably more than I need right now).

Now I get home and to be honest I am exhausted. In fairness even if I could have taken every clear night available my observing time since Jan 1 would only have been 3 additional nights (I can be sure of this as I am keeping a log).

Currently to observe means a drive of 40 minutes minimum and hiking kit up 8 flights of stairs with sharp turns at each landing and the kit that has to be lugged is as follows

1 Scope tube

1 accessory case (holods the finders and power leads)

1 eyepiece case

Mount head

Tripod

1 power pack for the mount plus an additional power pack if the 180 is to be used

1 dewshield

up to three 5kg weights depending on scope

That equate to 4 trips up and down the stairs to load up and the same to unload later. Its just too much to carry. The TAL doesnt have a case BUT it can be carted more easilt as it needs just one 5kg counterweight.

Heres what I want

1x telescope in a case with its eyepieces, diagonals, finders (all in one flight case)

1x Mount head

1x Tripod

Powerpack and scope weight

That cuts trips up and down the stairs to a max of two.

The key to this is something like a short tube frac which basically means an APO which acheives the following

Scope less than 900mm long with all its accessories in a single compact box

No need for anti-dew and therefore less power and therefore only one powertank

Lighter mount (ie HEQ5)

Fewer weights

Eyepieces carried with scope case so no need for seperate cases.

Its not so much to do with raw weight as optimising the carrying load.

Aperture isnst that important - faint fuzzies are by and large faint fuzzies regardless of aperture and the theortical ability to see more of them or more detail is pointless if you never get to go out at all.

Currently in fairness to me there has only been one night where I could in reality have observed (the otrhers had problems not of my making) where I didnt take the opprtunity because the thought of 4 trips up and down stairs turned me cold.

I mentioned disappointments - the big one was at SSP last year which was the moment my enthusisam evaporated to be honest. Months of non observing and I set myself to think that at SSP at least I would have obs time. The one clear night I had at SSP the HEQ5 had a glitch and that was that pretty much. The rest of it was three days in a damp tent with no observing. Given that it came at the end of months of non observing to be honest it broke my interest.

I tried to get it back and started getting the Skymax 180 ready for use - every single time its been taken out its been one more disappoinment - the thing is cursed, its cloud, cloud and cloud and finally a clear night, we lug the 180 out and lo within 5 minutes the power tank failed leaving the mount powerless and the scope dewing up.

Its a miracle it still in one piece because mu inclination was to throw it in a hedge or attack it with a hammer.

I am now seeking something that NOT a dew magnet, realtively less hassle to transport, requires no collimation etc etc. Maks are out because I dont want the hassle of anti dew equipment. Its just more stuff to go wrong.

Round here any scope like a mak is going to dew like hell. Even a modest 6" scope I had on loan with a dew shield lasted no time - maybe half an hour before it was dewed to hell. Thats the local conditions so a Skymax 127 no matter how small, portable blah blah just is a non starter on that score. Its also why a Meade LX (which I briefly considered) is a non starter as well - too heavy, too big and dew prevention will be essential for it - on top of that Meades mecahnicals always seem cause for concern.

The scope I have used most since I got it is the TAL 100RS so it makes snese to me to get the same kind of thing but better.

[nicnac]

here is a nice little something for a grand and arf

TeleVue 76 Refractor for stunning views of the night sky

[Astro_Baby]

Well right now my mission is to get the EQ6 I have running sweetly and test it out and then sell it assuming it checks out. It has an annoying rattle at the moment in DEC and seems to draw more go juice than the HEQ5 as well. I want to be sure its all perfect and then it will probably be sold, its just too heavy.

Once its ready for sale I plan a gradual sell off of the gear and see how much the sales raise and that will steer the decision about which APO which in turn will decide what other gear goes (for instance if I bought an APO with a decent illuminated finder than my Stellarvue F50 can be sold).

So next thing for me now is to start selling gear off.

[nicnac]

you getting rid of the TAL aswell?

we both know somebody else who did that and he kicked himself for it, ended up getting another i think

[John]

I think I know where you are coming from AB. It was similar with me when my kids were young and I was being keen at work. What little time there was for the hobby had to be taken up by looking through the scope, rather than aligning the mount, extensive cooling, collimation, moving it piece by piece etc, etc.

I found a 4" F/6.5 ED refractor on an un-driven alt-az mount did it for me during the tail end of that period (I didn't have the finds for something like that when the children were really little )

I still have the scope (Vixen ED102SS) and still use it a lot. My larger aperture scopes will show more of course but the Vixen always seems to exceed expectations whereas the larger ones sometimes don't.

It's just a doublet objective lens with one element some form of ED glass - probably FPL-51 or similar. It shows little or no CA to my eyes and the OTA weighs just 7lbs.

A setup like that keeps you in the hobby, but more on your terms

The Vixen is now out of production (mines a decade old) but the nearest modern equivalent is probably this:

Megrez 102 ED Doublet - Telescopes UK: Telescopes & Telescope Accessories in your only London shop

Mine sat quite happily on the Vixen Porta Mount as well - it really is a true "grab and go" on that mount :

[Astro_Baby]

Nope tha tal will be retained unless anyone makes me an outrageous offer, its tempting to cash it in and hike the price whioe dealers are out of stock though

[dogfish]

Hi Mel

I know the feeling of being put off when you have to lug loads of gear and faff around before doing any observing. Keep things simple and you do more. Which is one of the reasons I went for a dob, although that's no good for you with all your stairs.

Get a nice simple, undriven, Alt-Az mount and a nice frac and I'm sure you'll be happy. BTW, the new Tal was reviewed in this month's Sky at Night and they liked it.

HTH, Martin

[Ben Ritchie]

I think I know where you are coming from AB. It was similar with me when my kids were young and I was being keen at work. What little time there was for the hobby had to be taken up by looking through the scope, rather than aligning the mount, extensive cooling, collimation, moving it piece by piece etc, etc.

I found a 4" F/6.5 ED refractor on an un-driven alt-az mount did it for me during the tail end of that period (I didn't have the finds for something like that when the children were really little )

That was exactly my thoughts a few pages back too, keep it as simple as possible and you'll use it more. I use my 3" Alt-Az more than the observatory 5", even though that's no more work than rolling off the roof and waking the EQ6 from park.

As for the limitations of a 3"/4" refractor, pick targets that suit it - plenty of those too.

[NickK]

Ok, when you mean "like the TAL but better" what is driving this - is it better in terms of aberration or is it that you want the same FOV/FL (1000mm)? Would like to have it provide better magnitude (ie lower than f10) to add additional stars for study? Would like it to resolve better?

I think the bit is - what is "better"?

Btw I have the Porta mount and with the A80Mf (light in itself) I can lift the entire lot with my arm stretched out fully! For something like the TAL I'd look at the Porta II simply down to payload capacity.

[sixela]

No need for anti-dew and therefore less power and therefore only one powertank

"No need for anti-dew" doesn't go well with refractors, I'm afraid.

Its not so much to do with raw weight as optimising the carrying load.

If that's what you're thinking then you should give the 130mm Heritage or better the 150mm Starblast a good look.

No power tank, no HEQ5 mount, nothing, and it's got a pretty good chance of continuing to work for longer without any anti-dew gizmos.

As far as electricity is concerned I'm just using a LiFEPO4 battery pack for the fan (which you *do* want) when I only use my StarBlast, and I'm glad not to have any hassles with too much electrically powered equipment prone to give up on you (even when you have no power at all you can still observe with these beasts).

You do need a low table or crate in addition to your observing chair, but I suppose you can store that where you don't have to drag it up and down flights of stairs.

we lug the 180 out and lo within 5 minutes the power tank failed leaving the mount powerless and the scope dewing up.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but something as complex as a good refractor on an HEQ5 mount isn't going to fix that issue.

A Dob will, at the expense of forcing you to track manually. Yeah, you have to collimate it, but if that really bothers you that much you can just adjust the tilt of the primary with a Cheshire or collimation cap and let the rest fall where it may, and that takes twenty seconds. And if you do want to observe sooner, you'd better have a fan with three rubber bands around it and a small battery pack, but you don't have to use it (you can wait for somewhat longer before you start your high power observing).

BTW, I've seen people make tabletop mounts for short refractors as well, it doesn't have to be a Newt even though anything with a long tube is a no-no:

Now, a "classical" 150mm Dob can actually (barely) be taken up/down stairs in one piece and isn't that heavy, but it's not very stairs-friendly because of the bulk and there are some stairs I'd never want to navigate through with one of these.

A 150mm Starblast Dob, on the other hand, is no problem, and you carry it in one hand while carrying the eyepiece/equipment case in the other (unless you are paranoid and want one free hand while navigating the stairs, in which case that's two trips).

I am now seeking something that NOT a dew magnet, realtively less hassle to transport, requires no collimation etc etc.

Maks are out because I dont want the hassle of anti dew equipment. Its just more stuff to go wrong.

Refractors also have lenses at the front, and they radiate just as well to the night sky as the corrector on a Mak does. No free lunch there, although the advantage of the refractor is that you require almost no cool down period (unless it's a very large an bulky triplet).

[great_bear]

the new Tal was reviewed in this month's Sky at Night

I can't trust the competence of S@N for reviewing after they continually refer to a 6.5mm eyepiece as a "2.5 inch (65mm) eyepiece" in their Equinox 80 Review. From a technical viewpoint, that's hardly a minor error.

[MG1]

I can't trust the competence of S@N for reviewing after they continually refer to a 6.5mm eyepiece as a "2.5 inch (65mm) eyepiece" in their Equinox 80 Review. From a technical viewpoint, that's hardly a minor error.

outrageous...it's quite obviously a 2.56" eyepiece!

[Astro_Baby]

Nick.....your kind of mirroring my thoughts in "like the TAL but better" I have been pondering today why I dont simply keep the TAL and have a special case made for it.

The TAL is a wonderful scope but much as I love it its not without its vices which are, for my needs these....

Its long and without a special case awkward to transport and susceptible to damage because its dew shield and therefore its dust cap are easily dislodged exposing the lens to damage in transit. I have already had one close call with it.

Its tube rings are a weak spot

Its focuser, while yards ahead of most production scopes, lacks the quality of a Moonlite

Ni illumination for its finder and because of its non standard finder fitting not easy to change this to something else.

Now all of these faults are relative and its optics are superb. Some people might moan about CA in it I never notice it and for the price its probably unbeatable as a refractor.

Now I could fix all of these faults, have a Moonlite made for it, better tube rings, have a dewshield made up and a custom made flight case but it would not make sense in my opinion to do all of this because of the cost and I want to keep it original.

Better for me thefore means a shorter tune length OR a more silient transport case, a bette quality focuser and tube rings and an upgunning of aperture and/ or performance ( which may not be the same thing ).

So somethng like a 100 mm apo would create more prtability being a shorter tube or something like a 120/130 Apo would generate a larger apertue for the same length of tube and quite possibly a slightly smaller tube as well.

Almost anything I buy in that class is going to have a better focuser and with a standard vixen shoe I can put my Stellarvue finder on it though with a frac I would rather a straight through finder.

Firts off tough I have to sell stuff and whatever cash that generates will of course limit the options. Its a bit of a tricky one, for instance kets say I sell a lad of stuff off and get enough cash and a nice secondfand 130mm Apo turns up then an EQ6 would fit the bill whereas an HEQ5 might be too weedy but if I have sold the EQ6 in the interim then it limits the scope size. Thats one of my dillemas right now, which miunt will get the best price and which mojnt do I want to keep my perfetcky tned HEQ5 which is light or the soone to be perfectly tuned EQ6 which is heavy and uses go juice faster and has a heavier tripod to boot ( although intestingly the EQ6 tripid suffers far worse resonance drom the motors than the HEQ5 tripod but thats a different story).

Sighs.....time to sell stuff I guess.

[Mark at Beaufort]

Mel I understand your wish to have a more portable quality scope and the desire to be able to transport this scope + accessories in the same purpose made case. So why do you want a heavy EQ6 mount if you are solely using it for visual purposes.

I would think that a 4" frac on a quality alt/az mount with slow motion controls would suit your needs better.

Mark

[Beyond_Vision]

If you can do without a goto but want a tracking mount with a large load capacity then why not take a look at the Astrotrac with it's pier mount system. It can be collapsed down into a cylindrical carry case which is easily portable. With a frac of your choice on top it would make for an easy grab and go setup. It also looks fantastic and is a great bit of British engineering made in this country

You could use the Tal on this mount and then be inside your budget and get the portability plus the aesthetics you want.

Astrotrac - Astrotrac Travel System

if that is too dear then the following option

Astrotrac - Astrotrac Holiday Special Deal

Regards

Kevin

[Capricorn]

Mel, my thoughts are that if you went for something like the Meade/TS 127 then you will have a scope that is as big and possibly heavier then the TAL you already have. If you do not grab that one for it "lightness" then you will not grab a 127mm.

Many people have had, sold and miss 80mm ED scopes. However I suspect this may appear a bit small for you. Brings my thoughts back to the WO Megrez 90, or other 100mm offerings. For simple grab a scope and head out I would not go any bigger.

The Megrez 90 may itself be a bit small, you are used to bigger reflectors, so something like a good ED doublet of 100/102mm f/7-f/7.5 would seem to fit. Anything larger starts goiing into the realm of being too big to grab and go. Anything at the f/5 area will start to give CA.

[great_bear]

Many people have had, sold and miss 80mm ED scopes.

Yes, I always find it fascinating the amount of loyalty people feel towards these little 'scopes...

Personally, I always felt the FLT98 was a nice proposition. I was always attracted to the white aluminium version rather than the carbon fibre one. Interestingly, Chris Lord believes carbon fibre to be a bad idea for reflector tubes <click> "Far from being a plus point, a carbon fibre tube refractor is a big no-no"

[Astro_Baby]

It not the weight of the tal, its the lngth and its relative fragility for transport.

An eq mojnt with go to is a must for me.....eq cos i cant get on with alt az mounts at high power and goto cos otherwise i may as wwll just use a rolled up newspaper cos i cant find stuff....unsurpisingly when i get (at current rates) 2 hiurs every 4 months to use the scope.

I know a 127 will be heavy BUT it ,will be relatively compact and hardy cmpared to a 200 newt or the tal.

If you look at the meade one two seven carry case you get the idea what i am seeking ie a box with everythng in it bar the mount.

That would translate into, leave the weights in the car so all i have to get down the staoirs is a scope case, power, mount head and tripod which can be done in two trips at most or one if partner is free. That would be accetable compared to what i currently face which can be four trips up and down 8 flights of stairs.

At the mment i am kind of hardening to just accepting astro may be impossible when you live in an urban environment at the top of a block of flats with no lift.

Last night was clear, i didndt ge home from work ungil gone 7 and had been up since 5am by the time i had some food it was past nine o clock and after you have been working for 12 hours you dont tend to want to go up and down eight plus flights of stairs at 10 o clock and drive for forty minutes.

Its very tempting right now not to just flog all the gear and buy something useful like some new bedroom furniture to be honesg.

Thanks for all the input though guys, is helped, sort of refine maybe what i want

[Ben Ritchie]

Mel, I know that "after work" feeling very well - I get up at 5:15am for work too - which is why I keep talking about simplicity. Nothing lifts my spirits after a rubbish day at work like some peace and quiet under the stars, but there's that initial hurdle of getting off the sofa and doing it; the more kit there is, the more likely you are to think it's too much effort. Once you're there, then the tiredness evaporates.

Is there no environment you can use for a bit of stargazing within 40 minutes? I used to live in a very light-polluted city centre, but had the use of a friends small garden and adapted my viewing to suit the conditions - doubles, moon, planets, open clusters, things that cut through the background. And they're dead easy to find on an Alt-Az with decent RDF too.

I still think you're looking at stuff that's too heavy, and requires too much supporting kit.

[nightfisher]

with 8 flights of stairs i would look at moving house! i have one flight of stairs into my garden, plus one flight up from my celler so i get the picture, good luck finding a decent small scope, sounds to me like your doing the right thing, with a small ed type and a bit of planning you will get to use the scope a hell of a lot more