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Chubster

Is it just me!! The Big Bang

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What's terminally missing from any lay discussion of the BB is the interminable mathematical proofs that show it to be the most robust, all encomapssing theory of the beginning of everything there is. Most people don't understand it fully, so they say stuff like, "It just doesn't work for me". All the work done by so many very smart people over the last century is simply dismissed because you yourself don't understand it, even though the theory as a whole has been shown to be the best fit of all the mountains of data designed to show flaws in the theory since it was proposed in the 1920's.

I suggest heartily that you take the time to read CC's description in the link he posted above, along with the entire thread it appears in, PLUS the book I quote, Timothy Ferris' The Whole Shebang, and if you're still conscious, read, Alan Guth's Inflationary Universe. Then maybe we can have a lucid discussion on the BB. Until then, take it, please, that it just happens to fit all the observations, up until a few picoseconds after the Giant Space Kablooie.

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Most people don't understand it fully, All the work done by so many very smart people over the last century is simply dismissed because you yourself don't understand it, even though the theory as a whole has been shown to be the best fit of all the mountains of data designed to show flaws in the theory since it was proposed in the 1920's.

I must admit to being one of the people that doesn't understand it fully

Like i said before i don't fully understand it but have never dismissed

any of the smart peoples theory's.

My only problem with the "smart people's" explanation is that it is so complexed

an explanation only the smart folk understand it to begin with.

Now if i had the brain power to learn such mathematics to understand the data

that has obviously painstakingly been collated since the 20's then we could have a long and sensible discusion about the BB.

So as it stands you will have to put up with my dribble from time to time :?

Sorry for all the funky colours.....

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Don't forget since the 1920s the BB has had to be 'bodged together' (to use the scientific term :)) quite a few times. Dark matter, dark energy, inflation, Higgs fields, strings......

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Just seems to me that when ever the "smart people" find a hole in their theories

or come to a dead end they come up with another complexed theory to fill the hole in their last one.

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Thats the beauty of dark matter/ energy and Higgs fields, no ones seen them so they can be given whatever properties are needed to make the model work.

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The next thing you will be telling me is the the world isn't flat..... :lol::)

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Not me mate. If the world was round like some fools seem to think then the people on the bottom would fall off onto the elephant standing on the tortoise.

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Not me mate. If the world was round like some fools seem to think then the people on the bottom would fall off onto the elephant standing on the tortoise.

On a side note, im looking forward to Hogfather on sky one

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On another side note we don't have sky - can somebody *please* record this for me? Pretty please? Eternal gratitude awaits...

Arthur

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Back to the 'nothing' issue. I thought this was to do with electrolysis? In a vacuum there are actually a lot of energy readings. Energy apparently from nowhere! So, in the void of nothingness before the BB there was the possibility of energy kerploding (I like Fry). How is another question - but it is at least observable in a lab rather than being a theory like Dark Matter.

No time before the BB makes sense to me as space and time are inextricably linked as space-time. So, before there was any space there can't have been any time. (Stephen Hawking helped me on that one!)

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Any thoughts on whats outside the universe? Other universes perhaps? I liked what they did on Dangermouse but wouldn't we see it all from here if it was white? :)

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It's impossible to really discuss anything 'outside' the universe, since the universe is by definition everything there is. We cannot hope to understand that which does not exist. You coould call it a metaphysical problem, but metaphysics is just a word used to disguise the fact that people are talking nonsense. Religions love it because it allows theologists to postulate that it's where their god lives and works and is untestable by science, but theologist is just another word for someone who talks nonsense. Religions thrive on gaps in knowledge, which is why they hate genuine science.

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It's not so much the religion as certain people in the religion. As you say, these people love the gaps and have a 'God of the gaps'. Other religious folk embrace science, contrary to what most people think, and believe that science and their God are not in conflict but that science answers 'how' questions and God answers 'why' questions. We could hardly say that Einstein hated genuine science but he was religious and there are many more examples. (kelvin, Planck, Newton, Boyle, Faraday).

I have never heard of a religion that says God lives in the 'place' outside of the universe. Some people probably do and use their religion to justify misleading views.

Still, I am breaking forum rules and will shut up!

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Yeah, Please keep religion off the forum.

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Interesting stuff here. Can't quite get my head around any of it. Especially the lack of existence of time and space. Then you can't say. "Big bang commencing in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - ..."

What I don't understand is why it has to be nothing that it all came from. Why can't it be just a small blob of infinitely dense matter, like a black hole, rather than nothing, in a big space of nothing? I like the theory that before the big bang, there was another universe of sorts, whose own gravity sucked everything back into one point, like a black hole going around everywhere and sucking up all the stars and everything like a hoover. This made a really full hoover bag, that some naughty boy pricked with a pin (I'm not really that stupid, I was just extending the hoover metaphor - basically exploding black holes is beyond my physical understanding. If gravity pulls matter together, why should it cause an explosion? That's why I turn it into a hoover bag!). Why do we have to say that matter was not always there??

Andrew

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Forum rules? Religion? Bah!

There is a theory that says perhaps the universe has been expanding and contracting repeatedly, and we are around during one of it's many expansions. When it contracts again it's supposed to bounce back in a new Giant Space Kablooie with all new rules and starts on it's merry way again. I have a feeling this was a theory expounded before the discovery of so-called Dark Matter and Dark Energy which appear to be so heavy as to cause continuous expansion.

There is also the theory that our universe is only one of many in a Megaverse or Multiverse, depending on your author of choice, and the anthropic principle dictates that we happen to be in one of the lucky ones where the rules are just right to allow the creation of intelligent life. If this is true then there might be a way to travel inter-dimensionally, a truy mind-bending concept.

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that's cool. I like that. What I don't understand even a little bit is this dark matter business. Surely, if there's so much dark matter, then why would that accellerate expansion? Isn't that contradicting the law of gravity.

Andrew

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hmmm... How do scientists do it? They "discover" something that contradicts all known laws of physics just to strengthen a weak theory...

Maybe my mind spontaneously flicked from enthusiasm mode to skepticism mode...

Andrew

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Explode, expand, contract - explode, expand, contract - explode, expand, contract - explode, expand, contract - explode, expand, contract - a la BANG BANG BANG BANG etc etc etc.

Forgive me if I've got my info wrong but have I read correctly that current thinking says the universe is not only expanding but the expansion is accellerating - not decellerating? If so that would surely put contraction too far off estimation to validate the repeating universe. Shame cause it's quite nice, though it'd only explain what was there before OUR bang - not what was there before the first, so yer back to it all coming from nothing again.

Megaverse is cool - I like it. Still all just comes under 42 though IMHO :)

Edit - doesn't answer the question either though.

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