Perpetual motion machine

[TheBFG]

Ok so basic you will laugh but you can get the idea.

Also if done in a vacuum that will stop friction from air. I have more ways to make it more efficient like layering magnets etc but you should get the idea.

[Zakalwe]

OK, firstly, each magnet will repel before the opposing approaching magnet, before it can go past to receive the impulse. You could try shielding the magnets, but that also has losses (see here, for the reasons). So the machine is dependant on the initial energy put into the system when it is first started.

Secondly, making it run in a vacuum will remove the air drag. You will still have losses due to the drag created by the magnets. You will also have losses in the bearings. Even if you suspend the wheels by levitating them (using magnets or electromagnets) you will have losses from drag within the magnetic fields.

The link given above will describe why these designs will not work*

*"work" as in generating more energy than was input, or running forever.

[brianb]

Just invoke the Second Law of Thermodynamics ...

[black5f]

Gona make a big admission, got a bag of neo rod magnets and been playing for years! To test your idea you need a good gearing (old corless motor), a disk and some blue tack. It's great fun, highly recommended, hours of it!

Your device is similar to a Perendev motor.

There are others, and others, the trick would be to over come the gate, the repulsive part.

Physics says impossible, it may be wrong but unlikely They will use energy as the magnets will eventually run down (but they are cheap. Efficient motors are a another matter. There is a wonderful article on a valvless pulse jet (tin with a small hole) that runs off vegi fat, boils water for zero cost for campers... Er what about industrial turbines?

The main problem is though, for example, my Landy will run on filtered chip fat, people will pay me to take it from them. But if I do, the government (any in power not political!) will put me in jail forever as it will effect the £52 billion a year they get from fuel duty. If I take the engine out (MOT Feb!) and use it to generate 90-100kw of electricity in the shed (I've worked it out) they will still get me on something! If any one discovers perpetual motion that doesn't involve mineral oil or tax, however good for the environment, you would have to keep v v quiet about it

[chrisrnuttall]

Sorry but no.

The attraction of each pair of magnets is exactly cancelled out by the repulsion of each pair, so you gain zero propulsion. While the disc is spinning you will generate eddies in each induvidual magnet due to the hall effect, these will cause small magnetic fields which oppose the movement according to Lenz's law. So you start the disc spinning and even if you suspend it in the middle of a vaccuum it will slow down and stop.

It would work better without the magnets, like a satellite spinning in space that spins for ever; but it is not a free source of power, it is simply conserving its kinetic energy due to zero friction.

My day job is head design engineer in the UK's leading museum and leisure attraction theming company. We design and make a lot of weird and wonderful things, but perpetual motion is not one of them.

Anyway this is an astronomy forum......

[WayBig]

I remember drawing something similar in a school physics lesson. I "invented" a substance that would "shield" one side of the magnets, so you only ever got the repulsive force. Bingo, perpetual motion.

[dlp]

Wouldn't this be better posted on the Physics Forum? Physics Help and Math Help - Physics Forums

[TheBFG]

It was but i couldnt post images with it

[black5f]

Large flywheels will run for days, try and extract power and they only run for minutes. Think that physics rules rule, but great fun avina go!

[black5f]

But we know what we know today by constantly challenging current thinking. It's in our nature and the reason we don't burn witches any more.

[brianb]

But we know what we know today by constantly challenging current thinking. It's in our nature and the reason we don't burn witches any more.

We don't burn witches because they don't exist. If they did, we probably would.

If I see anything that looks like a perpetual motion machine, I'll probably start believing in witchcraft.

The probability of this happenning is right up there with the England football team winning the Eurovision Song Contest, or the Faroe Islands cricket team winning the Ashes.

[Enrico]

Perpetual motion machine ideas have been around for centuries. Almost anything you can think of will almost certainly have been built and tried hundreds of years ago. But it's still fun to dream....

[markophoto]

...and without people dreaming up crazy ideas there would be less progress in many scientific fields.

[acey]

Nice to see the resurrection of an old thread but this has been fully discussed here:

http://stargazerslounge.com/physics-space-science-theories/125097-physics-boffin-wanted-2.html

[gazza666]

As science and technology progresses ime sure there will be a way to do this

Just a matter of who invents it first ,just keep on trying

[IXTL]

...and without people dreaming up crazy ideas there would be less progress in many scientific fields.

Well said that man!

[Willarnold]

As Homer said to Lisa "In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

[StevieDvd]

The only perpetual motion I see lately is me spending on accessories for this new hobby :-)

[Smooth]

The problem is equilibrium. Without shielding from one of the polarities on each magnet, the device will stop fairly quickly. You could design a Faraday cage kind of idea to shield the magnetic field on the non used side of the magnets. I believe Delco Remy is a company that produces a variety of extra powerful, shaped (including fields) magnets for the industrial market. Problem is, it'll still just end up an expensive paperweight, as did mine 20 years ago. Don't even know where the bits are now!

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

As science and technology progresses ime sure there will be a way to do this

Just a matter of who invents it first ,just keep on trying

Not necessarily; we might just find more ways of getting it wrong

This however can also be important for science

[@@.]

isn't the movement of an electron around its nucleus perpetual motion?

[acey]

Yes but it's not a perpetual motion machine, i.e. energy is not extracted to do work.

[Probe]

If it's possible in the UK? You should patent it. It would be a great device, similar to Quantum vacuum energy extraction that would be converting energy from the electromagnetic quantum vacuum available at any point in the universe to usable energy in the form of heat, electricity, mechanical energy or other forms of power. When atoms enter into suitable micro Casimir cavities a decrease in the orbital energies of electrons in atoms will thus occur. Such energy will be captured in the device. Upon emergence form such micro Casimir cavities the atoms will be re-energized by the ambient electromagnetic quantum vacuum of the perpetual motion machine. The process is also consistent with the conservation of energy in that all usable energy does come at the expense of the energy content of the electromagnetic perpetual motion.

[acey]

You should patent it.

Perpetual motion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Proposals for such inoperable machines have become so common that the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) has made an official policy of refusing to grant patents for perpetual motion machines without a working model."

[NickMilner]

isn't the movement of an electron around its nucleus perpetual motion?

Unfortunately, ever since the discovery of quantum mechanics, the traditional image of electrons whizzing around the nucleus like planets around a star no longer holds water. All we know is that they inhabit a shell, a specific distance away from the nucleus - you can't really say anything about their motion.

And as acey said, it's not a machine because it does no work.