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Tantalus

Oh No! Double Summertime!?

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Having just retired, the time is of no importance but I think this should be left alone, they managed in earlier times we can manage now.

Keith

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Double summertime was used during WW2 to save energy, and for non astronomers the extra evening daylight means you have more time to go out in daylight after work, darker mornings for the average working person is mostly irrelevant.

The other argument about keeping the 1 hour on the clock in winter is reasonable IMO again if you are not an astronomer.

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I hate getting up in the dark, having to scrape all the frost and icea off the car, and I will be doing it a month longer every year if this lot get their way! :)
Well, don't think of me as an ADVOCATE of anything - As a lifelong user of public transport, I feel I have risen to more challenges than scraping a little frost off a windscreen. [teasing] :hello2:

What seems "fun" as a young person is often less so later on. Such is probably why I tend to (somewhat) ignore the "Dobsonian Advocacy" here. But I see even "our Carol" has at least added the innovation of a RAMP - So y'never know... :)

Edited by Macavity

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Double summertime was used during WW2 to save energy, and for non astronomers the extra evening daylight means you have more time to go out in daylight after work, darker mornings for the average working person is mostly irrelevant.

The other argument about keeping the 1 hour on the clock in winter is reasonable IMO again if you are not an astronomer.

This is not just a problem for astronomers. The "average working person" in Scotland and Northern Ireland will be getting up in the pitch dark in winter.

For example on 22 December, while the Sun rises about 9:00am in London, it is over an hour later in Derry and Inverness. Morning rush hour will be dangerous, especially for kids traveling to school. Outdoor workers will not be able to start work till the mid-morning.

One of the reasons the 68-71 experiment was ended was the number of schoolkids being killed on the roads in winter morning rush hour.

Macavity, scraping ice off a car is a minor pain in the derriere. My main concern there is driving on the stuff, which I will be doing far more if this lot get their way.

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Some positive news.

Changing the clocks? - The Scottish Farmer | News | This weeks news

Changing the clocks?

By Gordon Davidson

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19 Aug 2010

ENGLISH MPS – including Prime Minister David Cameron – are once again seriously discussing a change to Britain’s summer and winter timekeeping.

Southern politicians have long grumbled about the daylight saving time regime that sees UK clocks go forward an hour in the spring, and back an hour in the autumn, arguing that it is an impediment to commerce and a road safety issue.

Now Conservative MP, Rebecca Harris, has revived the campaign by tabling a bill asking the Government to “conduct a cross-departmental analysis of the potential costs and benefits of advancing time by one hour for all, or part of, the year.”

Ms Harris’ plan, which would mean lighter evenings but darker mornings, has been backed by other MPs, and attracted blanket coverage in the southern mainstream press.

Only 100 days into his premiership, Mr Cameron – who has pledged to “think the unthinkable” on several policy areas – has weighed into the debate by promising to look at this proposal. Under discussion are two possibilities – putting the clocks forward by two hours in summer for a “double summertime” effect, or shifting the British time zone permanently forward in both winter and summer, to the same time zone as most of continental Europe.

“We certainly will look at it,” the Prime Minister commented. “The argument will be won when people across the country feel comfortable with the change.”

But what might benefit evening barbecues in the stockbroker belt would mean pitch black mornings for Scotland, where the winter sun would not rise till 10am. Many Scots, particularly farmers and outdoor workers – but also our own safety campaigners – are strongly opposed.

Breaking from his party leader, Scots Tory MSP John Scott this week fired off his own parliamentary motion condemning the southern campaign, saying that its proposals would be detrimental to Scotland, in particular raising concerns over road safety in the early morning and negative effects on Scottish businesses.

In expectation of this Scots opposition, some Tory MPs have suggested that England should make the change alone, putting Scotland in a different timezone.

Mr Cameron has insisted, however, that any change to the clock would have to be apply all parts of Britain. “We are a United Kingdom. I want us to have a united time zone,” he said

Edited by Dangerous-Dave

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This is not just a problem for astronomers. The "average working person" in Scotland and Northern Ireland will be getting up in the pitch dark in winter.

For example on 22 December, while the Sun rises about 9:00am in London, it is over an hour later in Derry and Inverness. Morning rush hour will be dangerous, especially for kids traveling to school. Outdoor workers will not be able to start work till the mid-morning.

One of the reasons the 68-71 experiment was ended was the number of schoolkids being killed on the roads in winter morning rush hour.

Macavity, scraping ice off a car is a minor pain in the derriere. My main concern there is driving on the stuff, which I will be doing far more if this lot get their way.

I lived in Scotland for several years and I know that the morning rush hour around mid winter with GMT time it was still dark easily up to 9am (kids went to school in the dark - am and pm) and if overcast no real daylight until 10 so personally I don't hold to the "scottish" aurgument. BTW this was in Largs so the early darkness is even worse further north even with GMT applied.

I have also heard stats that refute the extra deaths caused by the BST trial years ago.

Another thing I go to work in the dark and go home in the dark here, as your own stats say 9am sunrise in London then the rush hour is over, the extra hour of light in winter at least would make a difference to my evening journey.

Just my 2ps worth :)

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I lived in Scotland for several years and I know that the morning rush hour around mid winter with GMT time it was still dark easily up to 9am (kids went to school in the dark - am and pm) and if overcast no real daylight until 10 so personally I don't hold to the "scottish" aurgument. BTW this was in Largs so the early darkness is even worse further north even with GMT applied.

I have also heard stats that refute the extra deaths caused by the BST trial years ago.

Another thing I go to work in the dark and go home in the dark here, as your own stats say 9am sunrise in London then the rush hour is over, the extra hour of light in winter at least would make a difference to my evening journey.

Just my 2ps worth :)

" the extra hour of light in winter at least would make a difference to my evening journey." - in what regard? Do you ever see much of the sun from the Tube window? :eek:

I lived in London for several (ten) years and never felt there was any problem with the winter evenings. The whole place is lit up like a Christmas tree and rarely suffers from the harsh weather of northern regions. I could knock off a bit early in December and still get home when it was light.

RoSPA have been banging a drum for SDST since 1945, it's become a bit of a hobby horse for them. Their current figures are extrapolated from the 68-71 "all year summertime" trial, which is strange when they freely admit most accidents take place at the October change over and this would be continued under SDST (albeit from BST+1 to BST). The 68-71 trial also coincided with the introduction of roadside breath tests and the 70mph speed limit. De Montfort University carried out research in 1996 that totally contradicted RoSPA's claims. Scottish road safety and senior Police officers remain against SDST for safety reasons.

I can't believe any astronomer would be in favour of this. :D

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I'm a serious night owl. No difficulty saying up late into the night, but getting out of bed in the morning is always a battle - light or no light. If +2 gets the go ahead observing in the summer months will become much more difficult (or rather getting up the next day will get difficult). On the other hand I've always been curious about mornings. I've heard it said that the nocturnal boundary layer gets progressively more stable as the night wears on, so you can get very good seeing in the hours before dawn. Also if councils do start dimming the lights between 12 and 5 (please, please, please), this would then be 10-3 in GMT - much better for astronomy, assuming you can drag yourself out of bed, which is a bit doubtful in my case.

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It seems very weird to me to change the definition of "Time" in order to change people's working habits.

Mid-day should be when the Sun crosses the meridian. If you want your working hours to be different then just - campaign to change your working hours!

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It seems very weird to me to change the definition of "Time" in order to change people's working habits.

Mid-day should be when the Sun crosses the meridian. If you want your working hours to be different then just - campaign to change your working hours!

I absolutely and totally agree with that !!

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If the UK goes to GMT+1 all year round, that'll mean that here in Ireland, we'll pretty much be forced to change to accomodate that for practical reasons. As it is, a lot of hte country should already be GMT-1 given the country straddles the 7.5W limit of the GMT timezone (15 degrees centred on Greenwich).

Double summertime - that's pretty dumb to be honest. I'd prefer GMT all year round, and working hours changed to suit the Europeans - i.e. the 9 to 5 would become the 8 to 4...

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GMT all year if you ask me and thats not just because of astronomy reasons but that is certainly on the list :) but the other reasons people have stated in this post like the saftey issues and people who work outdoors , maybe we should get a petition going lol .

Edited by bigal1

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working hours changed to suit the Europeans - i.e. the 9 to 5 would become the 8 to 4...

Luckily in this office we can choose - so I already take the 8-to-4:30 option (at least, on those days when I haven't been up too late!)

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Hmmm.... Is this the hidden European agenda:

1. Get the UK to shift to CET.

2. Move the Prime Meridian to a small village in Lichtenstein just for a laugh.

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