Spending Challenge - vote to turn streetlights OFF

[Llamanaut]

just posted my two penneth worth on the spending challenge website... im sure i read somewhere that crime rates actually drop in dark areas... tea leafs need light to see what theyre nicking, their torches also stick out like a sore thumb in dark areas. I think the self illuminating road studs are the way ahead too, on the small number of trials ive seen of them they are far superior to streetlights, how manys that now? 12... 15? If anyone has a facebook or twitter account then post the web address or thread on that... c'mon you lot lets see some action! If anyone's interested my twitter address is http://twitter.com/llamanaut

[Astro_Baby]

Actually lest you think from my posts I am a counsel of despair I have personally gotten a local council to turn its external lights off after 11pm and I am well on the way to getting two more to do the same. Its a start and once one organisation does it I have hopes I can get some others to do it.

I didn't do it by screaming on weblogs which anyone who works in public sector are well aware carries no more weight with the politicos than a cup of spit. I did it by monitoring power usage and making an assessment and presenting some cold hard facts about costs and risks to various panels and committees.

Sorry if that sounds aggressive - its not meant to. I am just very VERY wary of politicos engaged in running a non-democratic plebiscite through the agency of the web. Anyone who inhabits web boards with no moderation is very well aware of what happens - the nutters take over very fast and when that can be construed by a politician as a vote of approval it seems to me to be both irresponsible and downright dangerous.

Change only comes when it hits peoples pockets. Through the climate change issues (I sit on a panel for environmental issues) not one vote was swayed to turn off office lighting and external 'security' lights. One smack in the financials and lo it can pass a vote immediately.

[Psychobilly]

To back up what AB is saying...

Currently a plan to make all cats spend 1 hour a day on a treadmill is in the lead....

Peter...

[roundycat]

I started a thread here http://stargazerslounge.com/astro-lounge/105058-reducing-light-pollution.html which basically went nowhere with this forum, I hope Dave has more luck. Not that anyone in the astro community should be relying on luck to reduce unwanted lighting.

I intend writing back to my MP and the minion from the ministry (under Chris Huhne) to emphasise one thing.

The importance of government putting real pressure on manufacturers to design lights that are better suited to their purpose.

My ministerial grade reply from Defra talks about best practice and energy efficiency but this does nothing about lighting overspill. The government will not like giving the pain directly to the voter but making it illegal to sell 'bad' lights for commercial or domestic purposes will give the manufacturer the pain, the public will buy whatever is on the shelf in B&Q.

This must be the way ahead.

See also defra.gov.uk

Dennis

[Psychobilly]

I had my first "experience" of modern whitelight street lighting a few weeks ago.. and whilst they were extremely bright underneath them there was no glow captured above them...

When Powys county council started turning off streetlights a few years back.. some local communities paid the council to have them turned back on

Peter...

[RobH]

We had the new type of streetlights installed in our area a couple of years ago, and, while it's very bright beneath them, there is virtually no light going up into the air. I can image for a good 15 degrees or so more towards the horizon now.

Unfortunatley, when the recession hit, the installation was halted, so there are still big areas of Weymouth with sodium lighting.

Rob

[Astro_Baby]

To back up what AB is saying...

Currently a plan to make all cats spend 1 hour a day on a treadmill is in the lead....

Peter...

Thats because Cameron has said any ideas that get 100 votes will be debated in Parliament so people are out make him debate it in Parliament.

[Psychobilly]

Thats because Cameron has said any ideas that get 100 votes will be debated in Parliament so people are out make him debate it in Parliament.

Will have to add my support to that next time i'm on there then...

It's been removed

Billy....

[Dangerous-Dave]

Actually lest you think from my posts I am a counsel of despair I have personally gotten a local council to turn its external lights off after 11pm and I am well on the way to getting two more to do the same. Its a start and once one organisation does it I have hopes I can get some others to do it.

I didn't do it by screaming on weblogs which anyone who works in public sector are well aware carries no more weight with the politicos than a cup of spit. I did it by monitoring power usage and making an assessment and presenting some cold hard facts about costs and risks to various panels and committees.

Sorry if that sounds aggressive - its not meant to. I am just very VERY wary of politicos engaged in running a non-democratic plebiscite through the agency of the web. Anyone who inhabits web boards with no moderation is very well aware of what happens - the nutters take over very fast and when that can be construed by a politician as a vote of approval it seems to me to be both irresponsible and downright dangerous.

Change only comes when it hits peoples pockets. Through the climate change issues (I sit on a panel for environmental issues) not one vote was swayed to turn off office lighting and external 'security' lights. One smack in the financials and lo it can pass a vote immediately.

Indeed, write to your MP too. This is only a few mouse clicks so nothing to lose.

[Psychobilly]

No access to the site again at the moment is popping up a dialogue wanting a username and password...

[Cloudwatcher]

Don't suppose the idea of reduced VAT on scientific instruments (including telescopes) would catch on.

[Steve_Max127]

Tried the link site down for maintenance will try again later, nothing ventured nothing gained as they say

[Beulah]

There's a town near me that's proposing a partial streetlight switch off - and this is only part of the town. £72,000 will be saved in a year.

It costs 1 million pounds a year to light the town with a population of 140,000

Apparently the county council needs to make £60m savings in the next three years. I am sure that the rest of the country's local authorities are facing the same cuts...this is a great opportunity for us to be heard.

[Steve_Max127]

Posted my views today, in line with all the above

Nothing ventured nothing gained, I have a school across the field with flood lights on even in the holidays must cost a fortune in electricity.

[iamjulian]

I sent an email to Shropshire Council recently about the street lights in my village. They replied within hours, very positively. But they could only forward my email to the parish council who have full control of the street lights, however they did say they would stay in contact with regard to the reply - I get the impression that the council are keen to trial turning off lights, and perhaps a small village would be a good test.

Two weeks later and no replay from the parish council who are, it has to be said, utterly rubbish, completely pointless, and only exist to take a further tax off us (we pay three layers - county countil tax, town council tax and parish council tax).

Getting back to the original post, I also think it is sad that people rubbish the idea of politicians asking us for our opinions, as they have with these cost savings. Imagine if we all followed the idea of not bothering and they received no feedback, that tells them they have a free hand to make all the decisions themselves. Despite what someone said earlier, they are definitely not there to make all the decisions for us, they are there to represent us and our ideas.

If tens of thousands of people put the street lights idea forward, it will at least be discussed.

[Capricorn]

Tend to follow astro-baby on this.

If all councils changed from the sodium lights to the newer ones then we would see less. Sodium light is easy to filter out, just a couple of narrow wavelengths, the new ones are a broader band and so cannot be filtered.

LED lights, good for personel use but as they cost less to run the idea could easily be that the same amount of light can be made for less cost. Maybe even more light for less cost.

People want streetlights, one astronomer in say 1000 isn't going to get their view implimented if there has to be a vote. People are thinking of viewing from their garden, how about a woman walking from work to home at night? There is a lot more of them then astronomers looking at the sky.

Many years ago there was a campain to wear something light at night. Simply so that you could be seen and not run down. I have recently had to take emergency avoidance action owing to people that couldn't be seen easily at night.

Banning halogen lights isn't an option. They are often security lights and simply because anyone is an astronomer they do not have the right to dictate to another household. How about a privacy law that forbids someone owning and using equipment that could allow them to look in to another persons home in a residential area?

Jumping in and saying stop this, ban that isn't going to be considered. Asking for a reduction in lighting and its associated cost at applicable locations in agreement and with consultation with residents, sounds a lot better and has a better chance of being listened to. May not be implimented, and lots won't be.

You want council buildings to have their lights switched off. What happened at the council meetings that you attended and raised this issue? You have bothered to go to one to ask your local council why they don't do this, and so waste your council tax, haven't you? Written to any local council members?

The web allows you to make posts on the site mentioned but it also allows others to put counter proposals.

[RobH]

Capricorn. You make some very good points in your post. I have a couple of comments that I'd like to make in regard to some of them.

If all councils changed from the sodium lights to the newer ones then we would see less. Sodium light is easy to filter out, just a couple of narrow wavelengths, the new ones are a broader band and so cannot be filtered.

We now have these new broadband lights, and I get another 15 degrees of useful sky because of it. You are correct, where the light is, it's almost impossible to filter out, but the point is that it isn't going up into the sky, so, certainly in my area, there has been a big improvement.

Banning halogen lights isn't an option. They are often security lights and simply because anyone is an astronomer they do not have the right to dictate to another household. How about a privacy law that forbids someone owning and using equipment that could allow them to look in to another persons home in a residential area?

Fair enough if they want to light up their own property, but if they light up mine, then that is an intrusion. Stricter controls on positioning, and hence light overspill are the way forward here.

As for the privacy law....my scope won't even come to focus on any houses near us...they're too close

Jumping in and saying stop this, ban that isn't going to be considered. Asking for a reduction in lighting and its associated cost at applicable locations in agreement and with consultation with residents, sounds a lot better and has a better chance of being listened to. May not be implimented, and lots won't be.

Certainly, this is the best approach.

The web allows you to make posts on the site mentioned but it also allows others to put counter proposals .

That's democracy, and is fair enough.

Cheers

Rob

[Psychobilly]

The site is no longer "interactive" due to a number of malicious attacks

Peter...

[George]

Banning halogen lights isn't an option.

I disagree, the common light bulb has been banned from a certain date due to its wastefulness of energy. Halogen has a far worse energy to light ratio and is overkill for most domestic situations which is why so many people complain about light overspill.