M65 & M66

[Llamanaut]

Had a bash at Leo last night, in particular 65 and 66... i was using a 76mm (fl300) mini newt at x50 mag (my x2 barlow didnt arrive till today) i think i located it as a triangle of stars (with NGC 3628) just under chertan, looking at stellarium it would appear i was in the vicinity. Has anyone had any good low mag views of 65 and 66 or are they quite faint without high mag?

[Llamanaut]

ps... im not totally mad, a 76mm newt does work... honest (im saving for a 300 dob)

[Doc]

How dark are your skies?

The reason I ask is I struggle to see Ngc 3628 with 400mm of aperture

Doing the maths you have a limiting magnitude of 13, and Ngc3628 has a Sbr of 13.4 so this is right on the border you will need exceptional seeing to see this.

Well done on trying this and I really hope you were successful.

[richbyers]

i think its unlikely that you'll see them in 76mms of aperture, tries severel times in my 130mm without any success

god loves a tryer though!

rich

[RikM]

I think it is very 'sky specific'. At home I struggle with these in a 150P, yet at SGL5 half an hour up the road, all three were easy.

If you search the sketching forum you will find posts by both Doc and me of this area that will give you an idea what you should be looking for. (I don't know how to post links to the threads, sorry).

Rik

[cathalferris]

I've seen both M65 and M66 easily in 15x70 binos from a moderately light polluted area (milky way barely visible), so seeing the two main galaxies shouldn't be that hard. It took the 8" dob to see anything else, and I wasn't confident of seeing the third member of the group. Under a properly dark sky in the past I've clearly seen all three.

[Llamanaut]

thanks all, im in suburban weymouth, i could make out mizor and alcor easily with naked eye last night, quite clear with good seeing... reason i ask is according to stellarium there isnt a close triangle of stars of that shape triangle in the vicinty where i was looking, and i kept coming back to them ( i even tried an up down left to right at the edge of field of view) Just wanted to know if 65 and 66 would be halfway visible to such a small scope...ps... i modded my rubbish wooden scope with hardened rubber washers and now theres no vibration whatsoever. eta for skyliner 300 dob less than 4 weeks... then we'll see if they were where i thought they were

[Moonshane]

hi there

looking at this map File:Leo constellation map.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I fear you may have seen the stars in the 'bum end' of Leo?

M65 and 66 are probably a bit further down from where you were?

I have never seen NGC 3628 either with my dob and struggle with 65/66 with my 120mm refractor.

[Llamanaut]

it was certainly a lot smaller than the denebola, delta, theta leonis triangle... it fit completely in the 20mm ep FOV.... i just couldnt make out any detail other than there were points of light a lot fainter than denebola and chertan

[Llamanaut]

forgot to mention i starhopped down from chertan (theta leonis) here are the stellarium captures...

The shape of denebola, chertan and zosma is bigger & different to the triangle shape of 65, 66 and ngc 3628... ive no idea what i saw to be honest but its certainly in the 'ballpark' of m65 and m66. The 6mm ep i was using has quite a small field of view so its impossible to fit the entire tail end of leo into it, yet easy with the three points of light i saw... thinking maybe they were just three random stars that i assumed were galaxies, they were very dim. i havent flipped the image deliberately for clarity but if u can imagine an updside down newt image

[Moonshane]

hi there

sorry I misunderstood where you were in the constellation. I suspect you are right with three dim stars happening to form a triangle. BUT worth checking again when you get chance.

I'll be impressed with your scope if you can :0)

[Llamanaut]

not as impressed as i'll be!

[Moonshane]

one thing to try is your binoculars. as daft as it sounds, I can see M81/2 and M31 (though not currently) with my 10x50s not really tried many others - will do next time.. get them rock solid on something though and give it a shot.

[Talitha]

Well i'm hoping you actually did see them. One thing i noticed when doing the two Herschel 400 lists (8"SCT) was that high power often killed the galaxies. The lower the power, the more noticable they were... a matter of contrast, i suppose. Maybe the brain sees the galaxy as being brighter when it's more condensed in the eyepiece.. eye-brain surface brightness? No idea, but it happened quite often.

Another thing you can do to detect very faint galaxies is to tap the OTA.. a moving target will be more visible to your averted vision than a stationary one.

FWIW, here's a sketch of the trio with the lowest magnification i'd ever sketched them with. Scope used was the long 120 achro (f/8.3), ep was a 32mm Plossl giving 31x, fov is 1.6 degrees, north is up, east is left.

[Moonshane]

beautiful drawing Talitha! (for a change....)

I agree with the low power working best - I see more through my cheap 33mm William Optic eyepiece than through my expensive 24mm Panoptic.

I am sure your dark skies must be of great benefit for targets like these?

[Llamanaut]

thats the shape of the triangle i saw although only points of lighht nothing fuzzy... fingers crossed im going for another look tonight (if it stays clear!)

[Llamanaut]

tried again tonight but low cloud spoiled my plan... maybe tomorrow

[Talitha]

Thanks Shane. Yes, my sky is great for galaxies as long as the transparency's not like waxed-paper. There's a large town and a small city about 30 miles to my south, and Tomahawk is 7 miles to my west. When the nights are humid, Tomahawk's light dome can get up to about 50 degrees from the horizon, and the one to the south can reach about 40 degrees. But there's no local light pollution, which is what saves my viewing. On an average night i have no problem 'detecting' M51 and it's little companion with the 11x70 binos.. they're not much more than a few smudgies, but they're definitely there.

Llamafarmer, one thing i learned long ago was never to doubt yourself. You obviously saw something, and if that's the shape of the triangle you saw, i'm betting you detected them... at least the cores. As Rik pointed out, objects can be very sky specific. Can you remember what the transparency was like? Good transparency really helps galaxies in my dark sky, and i'm wondering how beneficial it would be under LP skies. Anyway, i hope you're able to check them out again soon.

[Llamanaut]

Transparency was the best its been since the icelandic volcano saga, seeing was good also... i did a left to right scan of the general area then up one FOV right to left scan then up one more FOV etc... i kept coming back to the same triangle shape which i dismissed at the time as a generalised but random pattern of stars. Later i looked at stellarium and the only triangle was the 65 and 66. I checked out seds messier website and this seemed to confirm i'd found the leo triplets, which id never heard about before. Also found (according to seds) that the magnitude is below 10 & not 13 as quoted elsewhere. Ive learnt many vital lessons from this as well as an intimate knowledge of leo. The first one courtesy of talitha is dont doubt yourself! Other lessons like always research your target, make a sketch immediately of something unusual, document everything you find but i think the main lesson here is dont dismiss your cheap and cheerful scope as inadequate just because its not the size of a bucket. My 76mm newt cost me £20 from scopesnskies. Its mounted on a rubbish wooden tripod (free) that ive modded with solid rubber washers (95p for 3) so that vibration is minimal and attached to the tripod with a wooden block (free) that i found in the shed, drilled and cut to size so that i can use the finetune controls. Seems theres no substitute for an inquistitive mind and a determination to find something (oh and lack of cash preventing goto, eq6 mounts, and the latest 10, 000, 000 mm newtonian ;-)

[Macavity]

Llamafarmer, one thing i learned long ago was never to doubt yourself. You obviously saw something...

Heheh - So very true.

Recently I have been (as ever) diverted into the tech-y side of astronomy - Equipment commissioning (So grand sounding?) etc. LOL. But Hey, I can "star hop" around the *brighter* sky, so thought I'd have a go at M65/66... And FOUND 'em.

For me, the "secret" is creature comfort. I know I have MOST benefited from a (wheelie) pillar mount (a rigid tripod would do?) and a stable surface for star maps. For the diehard computerphile (me!) a Laptop/Notebook + Stellarium. A head torch proved invaluable. I have also learned to RELAX more - It isn't a (self) contest?

For the UK, my (Welsh) skies are quite good. I am a little way from coastal illuminations. A seaside climate affords at least a VARIETY of weather? LOL! I can probably see "Mag 5+" stars... The main problem is neighbourhood "security" lights. But it is surprising what a little LOCAL screening can do - I am kind-of "wedged" between next-door's garage, my shed, and a fence panel... the latter to take care of the omnipresent orange street lighting. It's almost cozy...

[Llamanaut]

macavity i could have written your last post, it sounds spookily like my exact situation... coastal climate, neighbours insecurity lights and streetlight seemingly angled right at me! I have set up my tripod around my garden furniture, so in between peering down the ep i can kick the garden chair back and lounge on my big fluffy seat pillow

[Moonshane]

nice one! I reckon your dark skies help here. I need to move :0)

[Talitha]

....make a sketch immediately of something unusual, document everything you find

Couldn't agree with you more. I usually draw a little dated sketch directly into my Millennium Star Atlas, and then make a more detailed rough sketch if it's something i'd like to keep a better record of. When using the Atlas scopeside, it's fun to turn the page and unexpectedly bump into a blast from the past.

For me, the "secret" is creature comfort.

Me too.

Might as well be comfortable while cruising around the universe.