Are we really Astronomers.

[Euan]

Anyway, this has been covered loads of times, can we get back to the original (and very good) point made....

(Are we really Astronomers or do we really love the eqipment more.)

Thinking about this, imaging is a pastime that is much more prone to the "I need more tech" bug

I mean, where can you really go as a visual astronomer after goto? Adaptive optics don't really apply, so you are really just always looking at bigger and better optics?

[steve_bham]

Anyway, this has been covered loads of times, can we get back to the original (and very good) point made....

Thinking about this, imaging is a pastime that is much more prone to the "I need more tech" bug

I mean, where can you really go as a visual astronomer after goto? Adaptive optics don't really apply, so you are really just always looking at bigger and better optics?

I think visual observers like the equipmenty bug as well, classic scopes, renovating old scopes etc. Different filters, binoviewers etc

[Euan]

I think visual observers like the equipmenty bug as well, classic scopes, renovating old scopes etc. Different filters, binoviewers etc

True, I suppose I just imagine as a visual astronomer you are more connected to the experience than you are as an imager, and less likely to get carried away.

As much as I prefer imaging, I can understand why people think that sitting in my house watching the telly with my laptop running is not really in keeping with the spirit of what it's all about

[steve_bham]

Thats what i like about the hobby, people can do astrophotography, stand in a field and get that wow factor, observe the sun, chase comets, or even just look up stuff on the tinternet.

Something for everyone, and equipment for every size pocket.

[Moonshane]

unfortunately, I think we are probably technically (using this word in loosest sense) Astrologists (studiers of the stars??) - I'd say this probably reflects what most of us do more accurately as no matter how we find them, we do study them, either visually or after we image them. Unfortunately the word Astrology has been taken on by the card turners and palm readers etc and now we have Astronomers which seems more 'professional' than many of us would feel happy using.

I think Alan (ajfdab) makes a great point and sums this up for me - as did Forrest Gump when he said (something along the lines of) you only need so much money to live and do what you want, the rest is for showing off.

I am pretty much going to stay visual only I think as I genuinely enjoy the chase/location of objects and even the frustrations of not finding things. after all, you can pretty much point your scope literally anywhere in the sky and find something pretty or exciting or interesting.

I went for the middle ground myself with good quality used eyepieces costing about £100 each which is not over the top in my view, and which certainly do the business. I don't mean that people spending large money on Ethi etc are showing off by the way as I can also see the benefits of these wide field eyepieces too. I am just not sure it's always necessary.

whatever, I hope we all continue to enjoy this great hobby (or profession if you are lucky enough) and have excellent debates like this where we can agree, disagree or even just read and watch with friendly banter!

[Dimitris]

What it really comes down to, I think, is how we define the term. If by astronomer we mean someone who in evry given moment raises his/her head to the sky and travels, well, yes we are. Regardless of equipment, place, frequency, aloted time, there is no doubt that we are.

But if we spend most of the time over our computer screens, scientific magazines, brochures and price lists and we think of the sky as something to be looked at through something as state of the art as possible, then sorry but no, at least not as much as I am concerned.

Ah and by the way, and to set the record straight. Astronomer, greek word, from the words "Astron"= star and "nemo" also greek(written in latin) = Occupied with, explore. Therefore, the correct meaning of the word is he who explores (studies) the stars and not he who names them.Trust me on that, I am Greek.

Regards,

Dimitris

[Moonshane]

perhaps then the title of the film 'Finding Nemo' was actually more intelligently created than I suspected :0)

[nicnac]

i will say yes to the question.

my kit is excellent but very basic in todays terms but no matter, i am an amature astronomer on the basis that i wish to see whats out there with my own eyes, to fuel my imagination and expand my knowledge of the respective field.

its a part of me now and always will be

[Macavity]

I do believe that (mea culpa) I have spent FAR too much on Astronomy, for the more obvious returns. I am e.g. persuaded that, if you're "young and fit", a (big) "Dob" is probably the answer - along with learning to star-hop well. I also sense that, although the "journey" has been fun, my budget could have been much more wisely spent, without the urge to "experiment".

However with a slightly "dicky ticker", my weight lifting capacities are (at least sensibly) limited, so I have invested in quite a lot of stuff that simply makes my observing experience more comfortable and easier! Notwithstanding my initial remarks, I still rate MOST of my equipment as "essential" to my purposes.

I dabble a little in ultra-cheap "imaging" - If it can even be called that! <G> TBH, if I want to see a really good image of e.g. a DSO, I'd still go to a book. I'd claim not to be rich enough to be a serious "gearhead" - More of a "tech-head"? But, for me, the DIY aspects are (at least!) as much fun as the observing. I guess such a confession might make me a real Philistine...

[Tantalus]

A very interesting question and not an easy one to answer.

Many of us may not be professional scientists, but amateur observers can, and have made valuable contributions in the field of astronomy. I've only been a regular observer for about 18 months and a bit of a traditionalist who prefers to 'learn the craft' before commiting to an expensive setup, having so far spent less than £500, but I will no doubt be spending more and more in due time. I don't have any formal qualifications in a science subject, but I do spend a significant amount of my free time reading astronomy related material on the web, watching science related tv, and I've begun attending lectures at my local AS, mostly to satisfy my natural scientific curiosity, but I am increasing my scientific knowledge all the time (albeit slowly) and surely that only help to make me a better observer (better than I used to be, that is). And I'm out observing whenever the weather and circumstance permits.

IMHO anyone who regularly observes the night sky and has at least a basic knowledge of astronomy is 'doing' astronomy. If any of us was to see anything unexpected that we believed may be of some significance during our observations then I think (hope!) that most of us would at least know to make some sort of report, even if it's only a post on the forum where it would be picked up by the more professional forum members.

The technological advances in imaging in recent years has attracted a lot of hobbyists, and the impact of imaging on the hobby has at times been a contentious issue. A year ago I'd have said that the imaging side was killing amateur astronomy, but now I've opened my mind a bit more I now think it also has it's advantages, and also has some scientific value in that these images can be used as reference points if nothing else.

So, If someone asks me, I tell them that astronomy is my hobby, but what others call themselves I suppose depends on what the hobby means to them. In the dark recesses of my own imagination I do like to think of myself as an astronomer, though that's maybe self-aggrandisement and I'd never admit to it in public (Doh! I just have). I don't know if I'll ever be good enough to call myself an amateur scientists, maybe I don't have the discipline to do anything of any scientific value, but I'll always have that innate scientific curiosity and that's what drives me onward.

PS: Shane, I know what you're trying to say, but I can't believe you used the 'Astrol...' word!!!

[ollypenrice]

I am now fascinated by a slight turn of events here! There seems to be some sense that calling yourself 'an astronomer' is some kind of a problem. Errr, why? You can call yourself a cyclist, photographer, dog walker, skier, swimmer horse rider, stamp collector, sports car driver, cook, gardener ............................... etc. etc. without trying to be pretentious so what is so 'special' about being an astronomer?

Well that is an outstandingly good analysis, Steve. The first in your alternative list is 'cyclist' - which I certainly am and don't hesitate to say so. But even though I (sort of) do astronomy for a living I balk at calling myself an astronomer. Odd, really.

There has been a cultural shift in amateur astronomy, though. Imaging has become an end in itself for many, including me, and why not? It is fair enough to try to capture and tease out the beauty of nature. But previously more amateurs, maybe, were trying to contribute to the science. You can still do one or t'other or both. Does it matter?

Olly

[Llamanaut]

well i run so i can myself a runner (never jogger!) i look at stars so i must be a stargazer... why cant we call ourselves astronomers? I bet gallileio never had an astrophysics degree. Isaac Newton didnt sit his 11 plus which i did and passed so im claiming the moral highground... Im an (amateur) astronomer. I dont claim to be any good at it but it makes me happy!

[Talitha]

"So i say again (Are we really Astronomers or do we really love the eqipment more.)"

Hmmm.. my equipment is a pencil and paper.

First and foremost, i think we're Astronomers. That's why we're all members of this forum, isn't it? Granted, some become more involved in the equipment than others do, but the most important thing is that we're all having fun.

[nicnac]

yes indeed

[Astro_Baby]

I'm actually an astrologer Seriously I get so little time to actually observe thanks to the weather that wityhout meaning to I have become more absorbed in hardware. Its sad but hey - I'm a girl, girls like shopping so is that a crime

I suppose at heart I just like the views. I dont plan on discovering stuff, I dont note down data from observations. At heart I am a dabbler. I do it because I enjoy it. If that makes me an astronomer, an astrologer, a stargazer or simply a dilletante of science then so be it.

As Omar Khayyam said some centuries ago....

Some say I am a drunkard - so I am

Some say I am an adoloterer - so I am

Every sect has its own suspicions of me

For myself - I am what I am

Popeye said it more succinctly perhaps

[omneferuss]

Absolutely astute Astro_Baby. ...If each of us must swear an allegiance to one creed or another then the thing is corrupted.

The original post was a valid 'self-examinational' that many, if not most of us, must surely face... but it's neither the answer to "Life, the Universe & Everything" nor a prescriptive to reaching/preaching Nirvana.

None of us is Gallileo.. this is NOT The Inquisition.

Boys like their toys, Girls shop

...in a First World, filled with mindless monkey-see-monkey-do, a lil' 'out under the stars' is a good thing.... "War Is Over, IF you Want It" for some.. "Mine's BIGGER than yours" for others.

...the joy of it is that it allows some of us to see that the Universe is bigger than the goldfish-bowl of our own puny existence.. to exercise our imaginations from the fetid swamp of ignorance from which we emerged, and some of us are continually evolving.

'Gear Head' 'Scientific' 'Artistic' or 'Amateur' ..is a ****'s-comb blather to the "in my face" -in my eye -right now, right here -me alone facing it in the first person !" truth.

"I'm a gearhead", meaning "I shop" is quite different from " I saw what was lacking in the equipment available to me and set about, devising by means within my own reach, to remedy that.."

"I do Scientific astronomy", meaning "I point where I'm told and collect what I'm told" is... well, scientific..

( Don't be deluded that science is any more glamourous than thousands of test-tube washers and measurement-takers following instructions from hundreds of Phd /Post-Grads under tuition from scores of Professors with grants from perilously inadequate funding, supplicated from shy Governments (unless militarilly applicable) and cowboy corporate-sources)

"Artistic" ...that's a struggle with your self-esteem, or the esteem/currency negotiations with those with whom you culturally engage, or not... the ultimate self-disclosure conundrum and Faustian-bargain... a long way from the "Kodak moments" of glib egoism that rapidly pervades this post-MTV hive of Borg and handheld video-clip... where 'steady-cam' went the way of Beta-max' and a tub of trendy-froots-yoghurt has more lips-to-hips sugar than a bottle of military-industrial-complex cola

"Amateur" is the same as "Auteur".. only without the red carpet.....

who wouldn't extend their boundaries, go beyond them at every possibility ??? ....but retail off-the-shelf is not the only way.

It's the easy way... but not always successful. Not always valid or original.... or even productive or interesting.

Ham, cheese, and coloured cocktail onions on-a-toothpick, were once the height of fashion.... so chic, so nylon... as corsettes and bustles were so whalebone.. Black was de riguer Victoriana before Coco Chanel's lil' number...

....what's in the sky to see... is as much to do with who's looking, why, and how, as with what, and where and when. ...with a myopic mind, a narcissitic mirror, or a vacant echo-chamber..or with an open sensitivity.. or ..with the latest 'chip' on your shoulder..

Remember the "wow" , when innocence's clarity slipped easily from your throat, direct from the heart of you, .......if your favourite cliche now is ADU, take a dettol-bath and tell nanny you need to wear the mittens in bed again..

there are no princes left to wine and dine your ego, and as ever and always, it is stamina and singlemindedness that opens new corridors.... the bullheaded beast that inhabits the maze... Daedelus and Icarus are your flights of fantasy..

You may allow all this to blur, the ring, the clowns, the acrobats and tormented animals...or you might just enjoy the "oo - look at that", without all the PT Barnum... without all the Ian Fleming..

take away the spriukers and gates that herd you.. the fairy-floss and hotdogs.. the pickpocket ethics and hall of mirrors..... look up and see the waning open sky.. as the petro-dollar curtains close.

....when Messier set about to collate a systematic record of what was NOT a comet, do you think his 1 1/2" telescope was viewing much more than was visible to the naked eye of any simple soul whose attention turned skyward after curfew ??

no.. this was long before artificial islands in Bahrain, and Disney-fantasy architecture and Damian Hurst stealing specimen-jars = "High" Art.. and before global infotainment sat-nets reaped truelly 'gross' profits as if it mattered whether Oprah Winfrey said "You go Girrrl" to Paris Hilton's indescretions with her nether regions or not.... before the Takahashi pretence that everything is not made in china..... and before the Vietnam Vets' firstwave of the Tsunami passes, and the second tide of the "Starship Troopers" enact the patriotic edict of the USA that can't believe that the rest of the World has "moved-on" since they where the single-handed 'Saviours of Civilisation', three generations ago....

oy iz wot oy iz... but it waz 4million yeerz hyoomin heave-o' loose shin wot brung me so !!

(and I spill a small libation to Omar Khayam also.. and many many others )

lone individuals advance ideas..... then they are prey to the instincts of predatory herders, and the unison of the herd.

it has always been thus. ...at least since our ape-descended lot began to annihilate the 40% of earth's biodiversity that we have thus far... including our cousins... our own..

But Hey!! Don't ask where that new big Newt or SCT came from !!!

CONSUME IT !! Debt ?!?! No PROBLEMS!!! Debt like death will follow the path of least resistance.. too to-the-poor. You can 'renegotiate' it away !!!

am i an astronomer ???? am i human ???? how do YOU measure it ? Inches aperture per ego-flattering flaccid eunuch adulation?? ..perhaps gymnastics of mind like some wretched patent-clerk public-transport idler...... Like you, I'm all or any of these things....

I'm just glad that amongst all of the infinite possibilities, I was not 'none' of them.

... hello world ... hehehe....you do know that the triumph of the PC over the VCR was that it "spoke back" .. don't you ??

...hello world... you do know that, unaided, "Hubble" is as smart as a toaster...

...hello world.... oh ******** then.. monkey wanna banana ???

...you keep that up sunshine and I'll regale you with the sight of my florid buttocks n hurl my excretia at you too ! ..and see who the board of Governors consolidate for forward-estimates budgeting !

1st rule of 'budgeting'... overspend by at least 25%.. or next year they'll cut you back !!!

....THE one thing that binds ALL amateur astronomers, is an unheralded acuteness of awareness of clouds... 300 yrs of Romantic poetry and painting nerry made a dint !

It is our ineptitude and apathy that has saved the British 'Races' from becoming "the Master Race" !!! And I take pride in believing that in no small part that it was we of the colonial diaspora who thus, in her hour of need, returned to Her the laxity of freedom , bound by the fibre of indissoluable dignity that cleared the bowels of discontent and invigourated the ol' girl's humanitas.....

our interest... humble, amateur, or blessed monied ******... is as nothing to they who are the grit of human endeavour, generations gone, cast up on a day-trip shingle... throng'd by a thong'd we, tread lightly to the disco or whatever... but pest no less....the only income is selling what's dead, because it was 'history' ... but now, so is everywhere....

The sky you see is millions or billions years old.... dead or becoming..

....your Grandfather was a little boy, less than 90yrs ago.... an old forgotten man much longer.

The dead must envy all that we have, ..but I ask my self if they'd care what we want. Lost child from simple civil hygiene.. or Dad alive from cleaner hospital... workers healthier from more humane Capitalists.. better sewage, better factories..... don't ask where that Richie Chretien comes from.....

Astronomy is Time Travel..... 17thC technology.. 21st C marketing... only now, any well-off twit can think himself Lord Rosse.... thanks to yellow sweat.

Ka-ching Ka-ching ....in any language....

[Euan]

This thread has officially gone bonkers

[omneferuss]

This thread has officially gone bonkers

no euan... it's probably just me

[Ant]

I'm nothing but a glorified photographer (imager).

Sorry Steve

Ant

[Macavity]

Are we not men?

We are DEVO etc. etc.

[omneferuss]

Tek thee not tha pith

for pith me plennith n bladder-on !

n soorly glad ye spondaz

me dips me dings

n dings me shallaz

[Coco]

astronomer [əˈstrɒnəmə]

n (Astronomy) (Business / Professions) a scientist who studies astronomy.

I did a GNVQ in science when i was 18 so Im claiming it!!!!!!!!!!

w

Well you must be a 'PRO' as I'm an ' amateur astronomer' , I'll be asking you all my difficult questions from here on...

About the original question, I suppose its like playing golf? Were not all Tiger Woods but we aspire to play like him and own the best clubs and play around or two..

Guy...

[astro mick]

Well thanks to everyone who replied to my question,in all it has been a fantastic read,and a great thread to follow.I have to question one or two of the answers as they had me completely baffled,but as Patrick Moore once said,these are people of independant thinkin.

On my own question(am i an astronomer) i,m not really sure,but like the rest of you i love Astronomy,and get out under the stars as often as i can.

If my numbers come up in the Lottery,would i sign up to a Astro-Physics Starfire Refractor and mount,2 inch Tele-vue eyepieces,Finger Lake large format CCD camera, and lastly a 5 metre Rotating Dome(I,d have to move house first.)..................I,ll leave that to your own imaginations.

Thanks once again.

Good viewing and imaging under clear skies.

Mick.

[jaquesnoir]

Confucius say...

"Imagine a finger pointing to the moon.

If you concentrate on the finger you will miss all the heavenly glory."

Not quite the same because in this case the 'finger' is usually a damned fine piece of equipment that enables rather than distracts.

But the trap is there, as I know well.

[nicnac]

thought it was bruce lee who said that one