Is GoTo Wrong For Beginning Astronomers?

[kniclander]

Horses for courses. personally, i enjoy looking for things at least as much as looking at them. then again, i like fishing:o. also, for me, I bought a 10" dob for £300 - I think the biggest goto i could have got for the dosh would have been 4", or thereabouts. for me that would be the real issue with goto - you sacrifice so much on the optics side. and whilst you learn where things are with goto, you don't know how to find your way from one to the other. then again, if you've got goto, that probably won't be a problem...

[Astro_Baby]

I agree -and digital photography is ruining the art of photography. These days anyone can take pictuires just by pressing a button. No need to work our depth of field, bracket exposures, calculate speed and f number, and learn how to process different film types. Digital photography has ruined it all and generations of people will now never know the joys of doing it from scratch and learning about push processing and color temperatures.

Its the same with astro imagers - I say take all their equipment off them and make them do it with a box brownie and manually guide the mount - that'll teach 'em.

Seriously - GoTo is a boon. I'd be the first to admit my sky navigation is dreadful. In an ideal world if I lived in a dark sky site and was retired I'd take time out and learn the sky. When you live however in a light polluted soup where your lucky if you can see the moon let alone anything else and you have teenaged kids and other commitments I just dont have the time to relearn it all.

To be honest I think in 10 years time the astro imagers will be saying the same about digital astro imaging. The Meade LS is just the thin end of the wedge really (pardon the pun) I dont doubt in about 10-15 years we will have a telescope you can just sling on the ground, it will align itself, run adaptive optics to self collimate and start taking happy snaps of any object you choose.

Thats progress for you I suppose and one reason why I am not overkeen on it thats whhy I do all my typing to this board in binary

[Bobcat]

.... I dont doubt in about 10-15 years we will have a telescope you can just sling on the ground, it will align itself, run adaptive optics to self collimate and start taking happy snaps of any object you choose....

You can never know. Maybe a manufacturer is reading this and thinking the same thing.... kaching !!

I've just got into astronomy and GoTo for me as a newbie has been quite useful because of the learning curve with star-hopping and limited clear skies. However, with GoTo you do need to know what object you want to see so I do have a star-map and Stellarium.

The trick is to use old-school techniques with new technology hand-in-hand.

I've now learnt some star names with this technique. I'm trying to do star-hopping and it can definately be frustrating for a newbie.

When I just want to see something, I fire up Stellarium, get the name of the object and plug it into GoTo and there it is.

The missus finds it really good because all she has to do is put in the object name and the scope slews to it. No spending time star-hopping.

[brantuk]

Hmmm.... lots of arguments for/against.

I still think there's value starting anywhere in the learning curve.

If it was cars we were taking about I'd hate to go back to hand cranking the motor on a cold winters morning - but some enthusiasts might enjoy that.

And - if you took the goto out of modern cars (i.e. the sat nav) some people wouldn't buy them or wouldn't know what to do with a map book. Whilst others just want to get there and not know what's in between them and the destination.

It's allways gonna be contraversial depending on individual points of view.

[Talitha]

Think of it this way. If someone wants to drive their car to a place they've never been before, would it be wrong for them to use a Tom-Tom?

(Wonderful little invention BTW, never saw one till i visited England... they might have them here, but i'm a map-person myself.)

[brianb]

Think of it this way. If someone wants to drive their car to a place they've never been before, would it be wrong for them to use a Tom-Tom?

Let's put it this way ... when I'm driving I hate being nagged ... if I had a sat nav unit it would be thrown out within a mile.

I learned to read maps long ago (I used to "navigate" for my Dad from the age of about 6) it really isn't hard. If you can't even be bothered to do that, there's always Zen Navigation to fall back on. Find someone who looks as if they're going the way you want to go and follow them. It is not an efficient way to get to a particular location but it is an interesting way of getting somewhere you might prefer to be anyway.

[Space Bat]

Hmmm.... lots of arguments for/against.

I still think there's value starting anywhere in the learning curve.

If it was cars we were taking about I'd hate to go back to hand cranking the motor on a cold winters morning - but some enthusiasts might enjoy that.

And - if you took the goto out of modern cars (i.e. the sat nav) some people wouldn't buy them or wouldn't know what to do with a map book. Whilst others just want to get there and not know what's in between them and the destination.

It's allways gonna be contraversial depending on individual points of view.

Crikey I used the car and electronic ignition analagy with the choke reference - but I am in my 40's so remember my old choke on my first car a ford fiesta I suppose you must be in your late 60's early 70's to remember the old hand cranking

Chris

[brantuk]

I like maps too - allways been fascinated by different types of map that show you various features like antiquities, tumulae, viewing points, contours, wild life parks, etc, etc ... all sorts of stuff. Plus route finding is fun and a good excuse for an argument with the missus when feeling devil'ish lol.

But I can appreciate the tom-tom is dead useful for business people, doctors, coach tour guides, or the frustrated dad who just wants to get to the hotel whilst the kids are fighting on the back seat hehehe!

Wether scopes or cars - start anywhere I say, and you're bound to learn something

[brantuk]

Hahaha! too funny Space Bat

Mid 50's actually - but I helped out at a car museum for a holiday job when I was in my teens

[Merlin66]

I've been watching this thread... and biting my tongue....

One of the points I'd make is that many of the kids today ( I have seven of them!!) just want a 30 second sound bite... if they have to think - then it's too hard..lets try something else...

If you were learning to drive would you do it in a Ferrari or a Ford Escort/ Golf??...sure when you have the basic skills then you can move onward and upward.

I'm really not sure what the newbies expectations of "astronomy" is - Hubble type pictures?

Getting a scope set up in the freezing cold and then putting up with wobbly images which are VERY small ( doesn't look like the ones in Nat. Geo.) doesn't appeal to everyone. BUT, when everything comes together....majic happens!!!

Just look at the questions which are raised here every day on this forum...sometimes expectations exceed reality.....

Ken

[Space Bat]

I've been watching this thread... and biting my tongue....

One of the points I'd make is that many of the kids today ( I have seven of them!!) just want a 30 second sound bite... if they have to think - then it's too hard..lets try something else...

If you were learning to drive would you do it in a Ferrari or a Ford Escort/ Golf??...sure when you have the basic skills then you can move onward and upward.

I'm really not sure what the newbies expectations of "astronomy" is - Hubble type pictures?

Getting a scope set up in the freezing cold and then putting up with wobbly images which are VERY small ( doesn't look like the ones in Nat. Geo.) doesn't appeal to everyone. BUT, when everything comes together....majic happens!!!

Just look at the questions which are raised here every day on this forum...sometimes expectations exceed reality.....

Ken

Hi Merlin

When I first got into Astronomy I was a kid -

So I could stay up all night parents willing over the weekend...and pretty late in the eve as long as I made it too school...

I also remember the fact the air was cleaner and way less light pollution, which meant that clear skies were good skies where seeing conditions were only hampered by atmospheric conditions...I used to have a basic alt-az mount - which evolved into a super polaris mount - when I was 18/19 vixen released the first goto type add on for the super polaris which I borrowed on occasion, and it was a mare to work and use.

Now I have work to do - responsibilities - children...etc.

Although still being interested in Astronomy and my Acedemic life have included aspects of it - I never really looked up and that was due to time constraints...

I have to honestly say if it wasn't for Goto and how much better it is since I last truly observed - I probably wouldn't bother getting back into it....

The sky is polluted - LP is beyond a joke now - I live in Luton where I could once see the Milky Way...your lucky now if you can make out a constellation. I am not sure if I am imagining it or the old grey matter is having selective recall - but the seeing is so much worse now than when I was young...

So all in all - exactly how could people star hop like I did and others like yourself in the good old days when you could actually see dim stars in your 6 x 30, when now you should count yourself lucky you can even see down to mag 6/7 in your finder...It is just impossible to allow for such expectations of many on here to sensibly achieve..

I think Goto has allowed more to get involved and enjoy the heavens as we do - and that is just great and good for us all.

Chris

[johninderby]

I think it's also a question of how you deal with technology. If you take a passive approach and just push buttons then you're not going to get that much out of it. However if you use the technology as a tool to learn with and dig into how it all works then it can really enhance your observing experience and you can get a lot out of it.

That old expression "You only get out of it what you put into it...." is still as relevant today as it has ever been.

John

[brianb]

I'm really not sure what the newbies expectations of "astronomy" is - Hubble type pictures?

'Fraid so. Within 30 seconds, for less than £30. And a 10" scope that weighs less than 2 ounces and folds up smaller than a mobile phone. Or, better still, a mobile phone with a built in space probe in orbit around Saturn.

[Mikea]

Thats progress for you I suppose and one reason why I am not overkeen on it thats whhy I do all my typing to this board in binary

I find hex a lot F3D6 4A9B

[oceanheadted]

I think it's a bit of a mixed blessing. It got me past the "what do I look at next?" stage because I could actually find things that were interesting to look at rather than pointing my telescope in the direction I thought I should find and object and finding a lot of empty sky (well maybe a few stars). On the down side there is very little reward in hitting a few keys and the object you're after magically hoving into view, and I feel I'm totally isolated from the sky when I'm using goto which I don't get when I'm not - a bit like taking a taxi as opposed to driving somewhere yourself.

There was a good (imho) article on CN last year comparing astronomy to ham radio. Ham radio's dying out because you need to be able to pass a morse test to get a license but nobody uses morse any more and it's difficult. It's a pointless requirement. The guy argued that the stuff about "serving your apprenticeship" is more about making youself feel good about being a "proper astronomer" compared to Bob (or Wendy) down the street who uses goto. Instead we ought to get over it.

I do quite a lot of nordic skiing and there are not many people who do that in the UK, but I'm amazed by the divisions and rivalry in such a small sport. Does it make nordic skiing stronger? I don't think so. All amateur astronomers have a lot of common interest, however we get to our targets, so we should unite about the important things e.g. light pollution and not get hung up on small differences!

BTW forgot to say everybody should be forced to grind their own lenses/mirrors as it's a dying art!

[coxie]

I have a goto and im quite new and it didnt take anything away from me, i also used to scan the sky without the goto's help on occassions so i see it as having the best of both

[Jarvo]

GOTO certainly has its place but theres nothing more satisfying than finding an object under your own steam

Jarvo

[RichieP]

Interesting thread on S@N

Where did it go??????

I think this shows the dangers on relying on GOTO scopes rather than knowing what's out there for yourself.

Richard

[Capricorn]

Like goto's, find that I can set one up then people can decide what it is they want to see. Kids like them. Makes them feel they are doing astronomy as they get soem views.

The idea that you don't learn the sky seems odd. I always decide what it is I want to look at, work out where (constellation) it is/will be. Put down the book, finish the coffee and then set up the scope.

I distrust the damn thing anyway so when it slews to the target I have some idea of where it should be pointing.

So figured out what to look at and where it should be without the goto, the goto is the means of looking at it quickly.

If I recall the "Where did it go?" is about M31 and they couldn't see it. Noticed that no time. location, conditions, equipment and magnification were given for the inability to see it. Say this as I was at a club in mid-week. Good clear skies above us and down to about 30 deg but although looking clear there was some moisture below that and M31 was in that bit. Some of the Andromeda stars were visible and there was no specific cloud. But M31 was impossible. It doesn't take much to filter out something like M31.

Also they don't say the scope was way off, just that they couldn't see it. I had the impression that they knew where it was and were looking at the right part of the sky. Just nothing visible.

[Capricorn]

i went out spent a few hours galaxy hopping

Just reread the "Where did it go ????" on S@N.

The person wasn't using a goto.

Wasn't relying on a goto.

Seems they couldn't find it themself.:D:D:D

[RichieP]

Just reread the "Where did it go ????" on S@N.

The person wasn't using a goto.

Wasn't relying on a goto.

Seems they couldn't find it themself.:D:D:D

Are you sure you read that thread????

I am well aware that M31 can disappear with atmospheric conditions - but have you ever come across conditions which let you see M32 and M110 but not M31?

The OP on that thread says...

"Thanks for the advice folks, only thing is my scope identified M32 and M110, i asked it to just to make sure, but when asked for M31 it just wasnt there!!!"

Unless it was magical talking scope, sounds like a goto to me...

I think BrianB was right in saying the OP was seeing M31 and M32 with a slightly misaligned goto.

That was my point really, relying on the electronics at the start can lead you astray.

[RichieP]

Actually just read another of his threads on S@N where he says

"I live in rural Leicestershire with 0 light pollution and i too have the skywatcher 127 goto"

So not a magical talking scope then, pity - I would have liked one

Regards

Richard

[lulu57]

I would have loved to have 'served an apprenticeship', but had no one to act as Ben Obi-wan Kenobi to my Luke Skywalker.

My GoTo was my surrogate Obi-Wan.

It didn't do too badly.

I've got a human Obi-wan now.

But he does tend to eat more biscuits than the GoTo.

(You know who you are! I know where all the Jaffa cakes go!)

[Talitha]

when I'm driving I hate being nagged ... if I had a sat nav unit it would be thrown out within a mile.

No need to launch it out of the window, just leave it off.

(With any luck though, 'Zen Navigation' will get you to the anger management class on time. )

Getting back on topic...

My point in mentioning the TomTom was, that whether someone's travelling terrestrially or celestially, it doesn't matter how they reach their destination... as long as they get there.

[brianb]

it doesn't matter how they reach their destination... as long as they get there.

Sometimes the journey's more fun than the destination. (Not with modern air travel though!)