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pvaz

DSO Checklist (Messier, Herschel 400, Caldwell, Colored Doubles)

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Sweet!

As a beginner this is exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks guys.

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As I think I made clear before I claim no authorship of any of the lists. I just copy pasted stuff and made a compilation that toke no more then 30-45 min. Thus there is no mention to my name anywhere in the file.

There was a period between the time I made the file for personal use and the time I posted it so, as explained, I hadn't kept the names of the original authors.

As some of the authors seam to be offended by my actions, here are the sources (I believe this is where I toke them from but can't be 100% sure):

Messier Marathon Log Sheets

http://dvaa.org/AData/ADDoubles.html

Herschel Club - Observing List - NGC Number Order

Just an after thought: Shouldn't the original "authors" explicitly say the lists ware compiled by Herschel, Messier and Caldwell as well as any other references they used? :o

Edited by pvaz

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As some of the authors seam to be offended by my actions,

Sorry to have to do this, but I think I need to put the record straight:

When I realised that pvaz had included my Messier checklist in his spreadsheet, I PM'd him suggesting that acknowledgement might have been nice.

It states very clearly at the bottom of the front page of my web site that I assert my rights to be identified as the author of any original works on my web site, in accordance with the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988. People have a simple choice: either acknowledge it or don't use it. I don't think this is particularly onerous and it is not intended to restrict the dissemination of anything that others find useful (in fact, I actively encourage it, notably in my astro tutorials section); it is merely what it says. I will, as and when I have time, put proper "Attribution Share Alike" Creative Commons licenses on my web pages, where appropriate.

For the record, I have never refused a request to reproduce my work for educational purposes or from other astronomy authors.

Also, pvaz might like to note that the copyright notices on the other lists he redistributed are somewhat more restrictive than mine.

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I think work must be recognized and apologize for failing to do so. Though I made it clear from the start I wasn't the author of the individual lists, I was too lazy to backtrack my steps and relocate the sources.

Regarding the copyrights. I'm not a lawyer but I have copyrights over some software my company developed and have a basic knowledge of it.

Copyright exists only since the 1920s thus anything published before is public domain. Even after 1920, copyrights have an expiration date after which it becomes public domain (usually less then 100 years, varies depending on your country). Disney had the Mickey Mouse ones expired in the late 90s and toke them ages to get them renewed.

I know for a fact it's not legal to claim copyrights over something that is public domain. The other authors can not legally claim copyright over the content as the original Messier, Herschel and Caldwell lists existed before. At most they can charge for making it available in form of a book or even a web site, where users pay for the service of getting the info together, not for the info itself.

Edited by pvaz

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Thanks to all of you for making this useful list available to us all, very useful indeed. :o

Cheers

Rob

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A bit of history for these lists (which may be of general interest, even to those who are fed up with the "copyright sideshow"):

Messier's original list was merely a list of 45 objects for comet-hunters to avoid (in the telescopes of the time, the fuzzy blobs looked not dissimilar to comets); during his lifetime he increased it to 103 objects. The objects from M104 onwards have been added between 1921 and about 1960. I write about this in more detail in my Popular Astronomy article, Origins of the Messier List (Vol 46 No 4, Oct 1999).

The Herschel 400 is a modern (1980s, IIRC) creation which is a subset of the Herschels' GC (which has over ten times as many objects) and was selected by Brenda and her collaborators (whose names escape me). The aim was to provide a further challenge for those of us who have completed the Messier catalogue.

The Caldwell catalogue was created by Patrick Moore about 15 years ago (Patrick's surname is actually Caldwell-Moore); calling it "Caldwell" enabled objects to be given "C" numbers; "M" (for Moore) numbers already existed for Messier objects. The intent was for a catalogue that included bright interesting objects that were not in the Messier catalogue (e.g. NGC 253, Perseus double cluster), including southern hemisphere ones that Messier could not observe from Paris (e.g 47 Tuc, Omega Cen).

Wayne actually created his coloured doubles list (and very useful it is, too!) very recently.

Back to the sideshow (sorry, but some things cannot be left unchallenged):

The other authors can not legally claim copyright over the content as the original Messier, Herschel and Caldwell lists existed before.

That is quite simply not true.

Copyright exists for a "form of words", not for an idea. We "other authors" have added quite a lot to the original lists. In the case of my Messier checklist, I added lots of things that were not in Messier's list (e.g. magnitude, object type, NGC/IC numbers); Brenda went to the trouble of not only adding more info, but also of selecting that just-less-than-10% of the GC that was most suitable for the intended purpose -- that is not a "small thing".

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Copyright exists actually for any work originally created by the author and clearly identifiable as so. It's automatic after creation but should be registered for more safety on legal disputes.

You could claim copyrights for a book on the Messier List where you added your own text to it, like advices on how/when to best observe them. However if you add a table with the Messier with just the basic information of the objects, and later the content of the table alone is reused by someone, you can't claim copyrights unless you can prove you are the original author of said table.

The colored doubles list does have copyrights if the author was the 1st to publish it. The Herschel, although being a lot of work, does not as it's merely a subset of public domain and all the values added to the table ware published before and not measured by the authors them-selfs. In fact they should clearly state all their sources for the list.

As I said I'm not a lawyer and this is merely my general understanding of copyrights. Maybe a member that is a lawyer might enlighten us?

Edited by pvaz

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Anyway I'm not trying to start a fight here. I was just pointing out some particularities of copyrights.

I have no grand plan for virtual space glory or getting rich using this file. I made it for personal use then decided to share as I found it a very nice resource. I never claimed to be the author of the tables or even used my name on the file. I didn't publish it on any of my sites or made any direct or indirect profit of it.

If even under this circumstances anyone asks for the info, they originally made available, to be removed I will do so without any further delay.

Meanwhile, here is a revised version with links to all sources on the 1st page:

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If even under this circumstances anyone asks for the info, they originally made available, to be removed I will do so without any further delay.

Meanwhile, here is a revised version with links to all sources on the 1st page:

Thank you for the acknowledgement. As I have said repeatedly, this is not about restricting use.

The Herschel, although being a lot of work, does not as it's merely a subset of public domain and all the values added to the table ware published before and not measured by the authors them-selfs.

Sorry to drag this out, Paulo, but it may be advisable for you to obtain better advice before publishing, if this, and other bits from the same post, are indicative of your understanding of copyright. As regards the point I have quoted, may I point you to Article 3.2 of the Berne Convention: "(...) adaptations, (...) other alterations (..) shall be protected as original works (...).

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I should of looked for this when I decided it would be nice to write an app to handle Messier Checklist. lol

Fija

Edited by Fija

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I think work must be recognized and apologize for failing to do so. Though I made it clear from the start I wasn't the author of the individual lists, I was too lazy to backtrack my steps and relocate the sources.

Regarding the copyrights. I'm not a lawyer but I have copyrights over some software my company developed and have a basic knowledge of it.

Copyright exists only since the 1920s thus anything published before is public domain. Even after 1920, copyrights have an expiration date after which it becomes public domain (usually less then 100 years, varies depending on your country). Disney had the Mickey Mouse ones expired in the late 90s and toke them ages to get them renewed.

I know for a fact it's not legal to claim copyrights over something that is public domain. The other authors can not legally claim copyright over the content as the original Messier, Herschel and Caldwell lists existed before. At most they can charge for making it available in form of a book or even a web site, where users pay for the service of getting the info together, not for the info itself.

I'm not a lawyer or rights manager but I work in publishing and do know quite a bit about copyright. What you say here is not correct.

Copyright can be traced back to the Statute of Anne in 1709. Laws vary from country to country but many have signed international treaties which mean there is some commonality. There are a couple of things to bear in mind:

1) You CANNOT copyright facts, and in fact you can't even copyright ideas

2) You CAN copyright the expression of those facts / ideas. So for instance, if you have a table of data of stellar magnitudes you can't claim copyright that star X has Mag Y. What you can claim copyright in is the table (its layout, organization etc., etc.) and the effort you have put into creating it.

3) Copying and pasting something from the internet - even if publicly and freely available - is likely to be infingement unless (a) copyright protection has lapsed or (:) you have the permission of the rightsholder.

The bottom line is, it is always better to ask permission. In cases like these, there is not much danger of harming commercial interest, but people can put a LOT of time and effort in to this sort of thing and it is only right and fair that they get to decide how their effort is re-used and are credited for their work if they wish.

Sorry for the sermon...

Edited by x6gas

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Copyright exists actually for any work originally created by the author and clearly identifiable as so. It's automatic after creation but should be registered for more safety on legal disputes.

You could claim copyrights for a book on the Messier List where you added your own text to it, like advices on how/when to best observe them. However if you add a table with the Messier with just the basic information of the objects, and later the content of the table alone is reused by someone, you can't claim copyrights unless you can prove you are the original author of said table.

The colored doubles list does have copyrights if the author was the 1st to publish it. The Herschel, although being a lot of work, does not as it's merely a subset of public domain and all the values added to the table ware published before and not measured by the authors them-selfs. In fact they should clearly state all their sources for the list.

As I said I'm not a lawyer and this is merely my general understanding of copyrights. Maybe a member that is a lawyer might enlighten us?

As I say, I am not a lawyer, but I do have extensive professional experience of copyright. You've misunderstood copyright, I'm afraid!

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Yeah I think so. Anyway I removed the list a few months ago, even the one with credits on the 1st page.

Just thought it might be handy for others, but it's really not worth having to come back and explain myself, every now and then, for something I never planned to waste time on...

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Just in case it is of interest, I have Messier check lists, in suggested order of observation for a marathon -- PDF, HTML, Excel, CSV and Lotus 123 (yes, I did these a long time ago! :) ) versions.

I also have Messier finder charts for binoculars (10* field, 5* circle, uninverted) and telescopes (5* field, 2* circle, E-W reversed). Similar vintage, so just monochrome (which I prefer anyway).

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These are useful lists, thanks all for sharing them

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Paulo,

Many thanks for providing the links to your source lists (I was wondering how I could get your own list but as I now understand you have removed it)

I am new to astronomy and should find them very helpful as I progress my knowledge and understanding.

Robin

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I've downloaded the Messier Log Book from here and am starting to input my viewings, lots of other data sheets on the site as well.

Edited by Penfold

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Hi - forgive my ignorance as a new user, but I haven't yet managed to work out how to download the (excellent-sounding) attachment. Can anyone spare a moment to explain? Any help gratefully appreciated!

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Hi - forgive my ignorance as a new user, but I haven't yet managed to work out how to download the (excellent-sounding) attachment. Can anyone spare a moment to explain? Any help gratefully appreciated!

The original compiled list has been removed, but a list of the individual files are on the bottom of page 1 of this discussion. Just click on the one your interested in and it should take you to the page where it can be downloaded.

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It's an Excel file with the 4 lists.

The 1st page shows the totals, the others have each list. The lists can be ordered by column and allow filters. This is most useful when you decide to go through a constellation. You just have to go to the constellation columns and tick only the one you wish.

By filling in the "Date Observed" column the totals will automatically update.

Where is the download link?

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I've downloaded the Messier Log Book from here and am starting to input my viewings, lots of other data sheets on the site as well.

Nice find :)

This Messier chart is excellent as well from same site. Shows location magnitude etc as well as appearance of each object. Very useful for a newb. :eek:

http://www.astronomylogs.com/pages/charts/Messier%20Charts.pdf ps page numbers are the same as messier numbers which makes them quick to find..

From index page Lunar Field Atlas

Edited by mylatestwhim

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