before the big bang

[david b]

i was just wanting to hear your theories on what happened before the big bang, could we ourself come from a super massive blackhole?. Also could there be more than one universe?

[room16]

I aint got a clue ... but leading from what your saying, its an interesting thought.

Does all the matter that gets sucked into a black hole get crushed into oblivion only to come out the other side as a singularity? Does anything come out the other end? if so, is it the birth of a new universe? Was the big bang the action performed when all that matter crushed into an infinitesimally small point suddenly no longer bound inside those forces and explodes in all directions giving birth to what we call a universe?

I really dunno mate, Many say there was Nothing before the big bang

it was the beginning of space and time......but much like many, thats just too damn hard for me to take as fact, whatever was before the bigbang, if there was anything, may well be inconcievable to the human mind as it currently stands.

[Astro_Baby]

How about a cosmeg where universes are wrapped around each other rather like a set of Russian Dolls. The black holes link each to the other. Some black holes go to universes that are outher shells, some to inner shells. Perhaps they go both ways.

As matter 'leaks' it may be fusing and creating other universes in an infinite series.

The universes have lower and higher densities but essentially all exist in the same space.

Or how about the fact that time may be moving in different directions and may be a local process rather than a universal one. Now thats a mind trap. Time may be running at different rates or in different directions depending on how local processes.

[brantuk]

There is a well known (in the scientific community) theory of "multiverses". Our universe is estimated as being "roughly bell shaped" and there are others that may be the same or other shapes all running in different directions. I've not read of a "russian doll" theory but it's certainly interesting to ponder what exactly these are all contained in (if contained at all).

Matter is interestingly dynamic in that it can be shrunk into an inperceptible "dot" of massive weight, made to expand and take the form of many elements/metals that can form into infinite bodies, it has an anti matter or dark matter element to it, we know it can give rise to life, and yet we can only see so far back and forward from somewhere in the middle of it all.

What's at either end and what kicked it all off are the things I'd like to know about. Somehow I find theological postulation even less credible than ever now (with man's current scientific understanding) and sadly I doubt we'll ever get a comprehensible understanding in our lifetime.

I'm keeping my eye on that hadron collider in Cern - let's see if they actually find the Higgs Boson and see what it can tell us about time, matter and existence.

[Astro_Baby]

Somehow I find theological postulation even less credible than ever now (with man's current scientific understanding) Somehow I find theological postulation even less credible than ever now (with man's current scientific understanding)

Strangely as someone who was an ultra-rationalist for years I have found a greater and greater move to the theologicial proposition myself.

[Talitha]

Hi, just thought i'd pop in and ask that no further theological mentions be made, please. No harm's been done, but a thread in this forum got pretty heated a while back, so it's best to nip things in the bud. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

[brantuk]

Don't worry Talitha - I was rather hoping for more comment on the Hadron Collider and Higgs Boson

"That other subject" for me is like "Macbeth" to an actor lol

[Talitha]

[vincentnm]

I think the theory with the largest following today is the "Brane Model". Its a part of M-theory (which is a version of String theory).

Our universe is a 4 dimesional brane floating around in a 11 dimensional space called a "Bulk". There are other branes floating around in the bulk. All matter and energy in our brane was created in the big bang when two branes collided.

Apparently in the Bulk, these collisions have happened infinite times in the past and will happen infinite times into the future. Therefore, our 13 billion years of existence is just a tiny blip in the vast expanse of infinite time.

[Jim M]

i was just wanting to hear your theories on what happened before the big bang, could we ourself come from a super massive blackhole?. Also could there be more than one universe?

The generally accepted hypothesis in scientific circles is that nothing happened. There was no time, no space, no nothing.

[Jim M]

Hi, just thought i'd pop in and ask that no further theological mentions be made, please. No harm's been done, but a thread in this forum got pretty heated a while back, so it's best to nip things in the bud. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

Why not just deal with the heated messages rather than block all discussion? Is there a dedicated forum here that is suitable for discussion relating to science and religious issues? I personally happen to think that the new wave of popular interest in science and theology - discussions about Dawkins' book etc are beneficial.

[AstroTiger]

The main problem we have i think, is we just do not know.

Particle Physics, the field of physics which looks into pre normal matter physics is trying to explain this one with the Hadron Collider.

What they are doing is smashing protons (hydrogen atoms without their electrons) to pieces by colliding them together at great speeds.

This is basically done by accelerating one beam of protons clockwise and the other counter clockwise, the hadron collider being one massive donut with build in electromagnets to help speed these beams up.

Once they are close to the speed of light, they collide the two beams and in effect SMASH the protons up. In doing so, hopefully catching a glimpse of what forms of matter were around before the big bang.

Before big bang, there was no matter, only energy, the aim of this experiement is to try to deduce how we got here.

one theory is, we are surrounded by a field, called the "Higgs" field, particles which pass through it without interacting with it, gain no mass, those which do, gain mass.

The Higgs-Boson particle is of interest since it is the only particle of sufficient size to interact with it and gain mass. IF this particle exists, it would help to explain how ordinary matter came about.

The problem is, the larger the particle, the least stable it is, hence why the Hadron Collider was needed to find it. No other accelerator is powerful enough.

If this does not find it, it does not exist.

Again the accelerator was build because particle physics had drawn a blank, they simply do not know.

I am sure some nobel prizes will come from the work being carried out at the Hadron Collider.

There was a great series on just this subject presented by Professor Brian Cox.

[Euan]

I think the theory with the largest following today is the "Brane Model". Its a part of M-theory (which is a version of String theory).

Our universe is a 4 dimesional brane floating around in a 11 dimensional space called a "Bulk". There are other branes floating around in the bulk. All matter and energy in our brane was created in the big bang when two branes collided.

Apparently in the Bulk, these collisions have happened infinite times in the past and will happen infinite times into the future. Therefore, our 13 billion years of existence is just a tiny blip in the vast expanse of infinite time.

Cosmology is mind boggling these days

It's amazing how the most far fetched theories become possible in modern Physics. "Quantum Tunnelling" is a favourite of mine

[Jamie]

Is there a dedicated forum here that is suitable for discussion relating to science and religious issues?

Hi Jim

We do have a science board on SGL but i am afraid that discussing religious content on SGL is prohibited due to the volatile nature of the subject.

[Astro_Baby]

Apologies from me if I offended anyone - such was not by intent. Apologies to the mods and thanks for their intervention.

[AstroTiger]

Yes its a taboo subject.

I am likely the one who started the previous thread in question.

Apologies for that.

Cosmology nevertheless (minus the taboo) very interestng subject)

[batmanflyer]

i was just wanting to hear your theories on what happened before the big bang, could we ourself come from a super massive blackhole?. Also could there be more than one universe?

I support some of the parallell universes theory. Mainly because I do not believe that after an infinite non time suddenly there was something "appearing" which let form of a big bang. There must have been something "before" that triggered a big bang and maybe we are living inside a black hole is my thoughts.

[ollypenrice]

It would probably better to talk about 'outside' the big bang rather than 'before it' since time (our tiime) is probably just something local to the Big Bang Universe, if it even really operates as we we think within that, which I very much doubt. It seems reasonable to think of things outside the bubble-like big bang, though. Something in which it is embedded.

Great, isn't it...

Olly

[Darth_Muppet]

I've just read the entire post and in my opinion....I need a pint.

[yeti monster]

..I need a pint.

YOU need a pint! what about me? I've been without alcohol for 2 weeks now and I've got another two weeks to go ...........

[ollypenrice]

Time relativity will be very easy for anyone forced off alchohol to understand...

Olly

[beamish]

"The universes have lower and higher densities but essentially all exist in the same space."

One of my favourites !

[drollere]

there are three ways to answer the question.

on a practical level, science only has available for "explanations" its current understanding of physical laws inside *this* universe -- quantum theory, astrophysics, newtonian mechanics, whatever. chess and checkers both play by very simple rules, but i doubt you could explain one game only by using the rules of the other game. the shape of our laws dictates what we can explain.

on a theoretical level, the singularity was itself the origin of space and time, matter and energy. these did not exist prior to the singularity. saying that "before the universe there was no space and no time" doesn't do it, because "before" is a word about time sequences, and there was no time sequence before the singularity: "there was" is a word about existence, and nothing existed before the singularity.

finally there's the philosophical problem that a first cause must itself have a first cause. what created the thing that created the universe? it does no good to say "the thing that came before didn't have any creation, it was self created", because you can just as easily say that directly about the world we see: the universe was self created in the singularity.

the main point is not to expect to get an explanation of the universe that will sound like a causal explanation you apply to everyday life. the universe is the limiting fact.

[ollypenrice]

'on a theoretical level, the singularity was itself the origin of space and time, matter and energy. these did not exist prior to the singularity. saying that "before the universe there was no space and no time" doesn't do it, because "before" is a word about time sequences, and there was no time sequence before the singularity: "there was" is a word about existence, and nothing existed before the singularity. '

Yes but even within this universe we must remember that the idea of a past, a moving present and a future (known sometimes as the Tensed theory of time) is itself a theory. In everyday life it is an assumption most of us make. In thinking cosmologically, though, we have to beware of this assumption. Personally I very much doubt that the tensed theory of time is applicable other than 'locally' - ie to the universe as we see (create?) it. Several observations in quantum theory throw doubt upon it. The entangled photons experiment or Feynman''s discovery that an electron is indestinguishable from a time reversed positron seem to me (no expert) to knock on the door of the tensed theory of time...

I come back to the need to think in terms of 'outside' the big bang. If time is a dimension, however it 'really' works, then it could reasonably considered to be embedded in other dimensions. There is little hope of such speculation becoming accessible to scientific thinking, though one never knows.

I was amused to hear (I think) Brian Green say that the new collider was needed 'because the maths isn't working.' He said it with a smile.

My next physics read needs to be Lee Smolin's The Trouble With Physics.

Olly

[vlebo]

there are three ways to answer the question.

on a practical level, science only has available for "explanations" its current understanding of physical laws inside *this* universe -- quantum theory, astrophysics, newtonian mechanics, whatever. chess and checkers both play by very simple rules, but i doubt you could explain one game only by using the rules of the other game. the shape of our laws dictates what we can explain.

on a theoretical level, the singularity was itself the origin of space and time, matter and energy. these did not exist prior to the singularity. saying that "before the universe there was no space and no time" doesn't do it, because "before" is a word about time sequences, and there was no time sequence before the singularity: "there was" is a word about existence, and nothing existed before the singularity.

finally there's the philosophical problem that a first cause must itself have a first cause. what created the thing that created the universe? it does no good to say "the thing that came before didn't have any creation, it was self created", because you can just as easily say that directly about the world we see: the universe was self created in the singularity.

the main point is not to expect to get an explanation of the universe that will sound like a causal explanation you apply to everyday life. the universe is the limiting fact.

I feel that the response above seems to be the one for me given our knowledge so far , thats not to say any theory we currently have may be proved right or wrong in the future. But something inside of me tells me the answer to everything we are looking for is far simpler than we think and if we were able to step away from our limitations all would become very clear.