Creating an Astro Group

[Deneb]

Hi

How does one go about creating an Astro Group/Society? as I think my Current Enfield Group does not exist no more & I have been thinking about creating one.

[ronin]

Will say never done it.

First why did Enfield fail?

Should be in a good area for numbers of people.

Probably hard to locate a fair dark site - Lea Valley?

Did it become a specialised group, someone has said elsewhere that they cannot seem to find a group that simply observes.

Enfield is N London essentially, is there anything at Mill Hill Obs or Brayfordbury that you could use as a base.

What makes groups in other places succede?

Visit others and have a look.

Suppose you will have to talk with "old" members of Enfield and get honest answers out of them.

[Astro_Baby]

Tough call....

I am working on one at the moment though I have yet to do much more than put some feelers out.

I think what knackers most groups is they dont have a wide enough membership from what I have seen. The consequence is they end up with a small number of people just interested in one thing.

That way has a built in self destruct. Members always leave a club after time and newomers are what keeps a club going. If you can only appeal to a small number of people your incoming newbies are much less. Voila club slowly dwindles to extinction.

Few newbies want to come to a lecture on Hydrogen Emission Lines. Few experts want to sit through a 'This is the RA control' lecture. There has to be a balance to get the widest membership.

I have been round a few clubs in the last year and very few of them would have any appeal to a nebie at all. They certainly didn't to me.

My own plan is to acquire a dark sky site. This is underway at the moment. If and when I find one then the deal will be you pay for membership and pay to use the pitch. It wont be a huge amount - enough to cover costs but I would then plan to bolt lectures and how-to type guides on the basis of money raised from the pitch use.

In some ways Darrens Salisbusry Star Party is a better model I think than traditional clubs. ie you push off for a night in a dark field and get a lecture as well. Perhaps a sky tour for beginners.

With more people without an obs than with one I think it could work. Hantsastro have done it very successfully.

Personally I think a modern club has to be more like a business. Facilities cost more these days and clubs need so much stuff like insurance, LCD projectors, risk assessments, CRB checks etc etc. You simply cant fund it off the occasional tombola and raffle and selling some tea and kit kats. It has to be much more hard headed.

[Deneb]

Thanks Astro Baby, the nearest society to me is Haringey, but what I can see, their more interested in lecturing & their website has some low input. Well I am going to visit them, they may have an idea what are darkest places around the Enfield/Hertfordshire region. I am currently trying to find a dark site myself, somewhere I can go - without being disturbed from boy racers. I've found a few, just have to find out who the land owners are & ask their permissions to view from their land also would they want any monies.

I am also thinking about approaching the Local Council - Environment/Park Division to see If they have information regarding council country green areas which can be used for astro sessions away from local towns.

Nadeem.

[Milamber]

I would have thought you could nip over to Loughton? Some proper astronomers there, the likes of Dale Holt, Es Reid, and so on.

Letchworth AS are a bouncey bunch, very active and full of great ideas people.

Arthur

[callump]

The FAS has a "starting a society" booklet, as a pdf - if you contact the FAS Secretary he will be able to send you a copy. You can email him via the FAS website: The Federation of AStronomical Societies

Its probably more about the mechanics (things like constitutions), but you may find it useful.

/callump

[EN3UK]

I base in EN3 Area and if they a club please feel free to email me .

Sky Watcher 150 EN3UK

[FLO]

I think what knackers most groups is they dont have a wide enough membership from what I have seen. The consequence is they end up with a small number of people just interested in one thing.

Agreed. Some groups put a great deal of effort into attracting experienced astronomers but give no thought at all to the all-important beginner. If the experienced members then reduce to a core group and sit about reminding each other how important and knowledgeable they are, then the club is lost.

Nadeem, Mel, good luck forming your new groups. If I can help please drop me a PM

[Astro_Baby]

Thers an interesting article in Sky and Telescope this month which suggests that Hantsastro have the right idea. Its certainly what I was thnking about atthe same time as Hantsastro. No committee, no membership - a cyber based group which only meets on a piece of land to observe/image.

No meetings or lectures or ebem membership fees with the the funds being raised through sponsorship and/or sales.

I think the days when clubs could run by selling a slice of Dundee cake and a cup of tea plus a membership are long gone myself. The costs of clubs with all the health and safety issue, insurance, meeting halls etc just can be run off selling a few cups of coffee and thee days with the web theres no real need to join a club to gain knowledge either.

My idea for a group would be an online 'virtual' community much like SGL but with a live meet and more geographicaly bounded than SGL.

At the moment I am still trying to get a decent observing site in the Surrey area to provide the base station.

[FLO]

I haven't read the article but I do think Dave at HantsAstro is ahead of his time

IMHO, traditional astro clubs work best as social events where people meet with other like-minded people to share their passion for all things astronomy. Talks and lectures are important but so is having time set aside to simply meet and chat.

[TheThing]

Astro_Baby,

Sounds like an excellent idea (sorry to hijack a thread!). I'm based in Epsom, so would be most willing to lend any assitance you might need and to join up in due course.

Rigid clubs with set meetings have always put me off. I was a member of one in the past, but found that meeting every Friday night was a hassle and often involved missing a night's viewing to listen to a lecture that didn't interest me all that much! (the occasional lecture was very good though)

A more informal, web based chat with meetings in a dark night to observe would be more my 'cup of tea'!!

[AstroTiger]

To be fair this is also the idea behind the Neve Valley Astronomical Society.

No committee, no membership, you simply turn up to lectures, pay a few quid to help with expenses etc.

So far we have observed several times over and had a few bbq's.

Darren did a fantastic job @ Salisbury, i aim to mirror this to an extent at Thetford next year.

Where again i intend to lay on courses etc as a means of helping to fund it more.

Without mentioning names, i think committee driven soc's will in time fizzle out unless many of them change their ways.

Astronomy is evolving all the time.

Nice idea re dark site astrobaby, will be interested to know more about that.

[Astro_Baby]

That sounds a great idea Astrotiger - sorry didnt mean to not mention you - I didnt know you were doing the same thing. But yes Darren did a great job and I hope your event goes as well - might even be there

[Astro_Baby]

Thingy - I'll let you know. I have a possible to site to check this weekend and another one next week.

It all hinges on a dark sky site but they are hard to find especially if you want reasonable access, car hard standing, no trees etc

[Deneb]

I have to agree HantsAstro have the right idea having a cyber chat room, where the virtually the cost is zero. Only then meeting somewhere for an Observing session. mmm the more i think about it, the more I want to go down this route to form a Astro Group.

[callump]

I think predictions that the 'traditional' astro-clubs will die out is a little premature. The evidence seems to me to be to the contrary - more clubs are being formed, and their memberships are growing.

Regarding costs, i don't think that argument stacks up at all. Our society breaks even, or makes a small surplus on £20 p.a. membership. And we have digital projector, wireless mic, and the other stuff needed to make the club work.

One thing that will help traditional clubs continue is continuity. Committees running clubs need to change around every few years, with new people coming in with new ideas - this is what keeps clubs alive.

And many clubs are embracing new communication media too - take for example Newbury AS's twitter campaign.

Where a group has a single main instigator, what happens when they lose interest, or get tired of running it, or get run over by a bus....

Of course internet groups (like SGL and Hantsasto) definately have a role to play, But i think this should be a pluraility, its not really an either or. People will want to get together and meet up - face to face. Humans are social animals.

Regarding locating observing sites, could i suggest seeking out local village cricket clubs - they will normally have car park & pavillion where you might be able to meet. And they are not used much in winter (at least for cricket), so might appreciate some nominal income. Of course they would not be keen on you observing from the square.

/callump

[Starflyer]

IMHO, traditional astro clubs work best as social events where people meet with other like-minded people to share their passion for all things astronomy. Talks and lectures are important but so is having time set aside to simply meet and chat.

I agree Steve, I enjoy the social side more than the lectures and I probably learn more about what interests me this way. I still get a lot out of the talks but most of them are pretty technical and I've got a short attention span

It helps that there's a quiet(ish) pub about 5 mins drive from the observing site and if when it's cloudy we tend to all congregate there under the excuse that we're waiting for it to clear

[Leegsi]

I observe with HantsAstro and its what kept me in the hobby.

There is nothing worse than spending your hard earned cash on something then getting lost in the technical talk.

You dont even need to own a scope with them as the club has quite a few for people to try so you can see what style of scope you want and if the hobby is for you or not.

[Trull]

Some really good points above, speaking as a member of Aberdeen AS, we thrive on our public events, where the layperson can come along and see what all the fuss is about. These tend to drive our publicity too.

We are fortunate that we have two good observing sites (one of which is 500m from a fantastic Indian, so we have Cosmic Curries) and a wide variety of members. Having subscriptions allows us to value add so we can pay speaker's expenses to come up and talk, and purchase fancy equipment like our 25x100 bins and Millennium Unimount stand which people would not normally buy on their own.

If I was just starting out, I'd get a Yahoo! group and work it from there, adding on a webnode site perhaps. Once you have a constitution you can gather subs and then opening doors with the Forestry Commission/Countryside Rangers/local landowners becomes much easier as they can see you are serious. 3rd party liability insurance is nice to have.

Phil Hart took this amazing image of The Pleiades - M45 | Phil Hart - Astronomy, Photography and Peak Oil which would not have happened unless we had some paperwork behind us.

Clear skies and let us know how you do!

[Woodsey65]

I think predictions that the 'traditional' astro-clubs will die out is a little premature. The evidence seems to me to be to the contrary - more clubs are being formed, and their memberships are growing.

Regarding costs, i don't think that argument stacks up at all. Our society breaks even, or makes a small surplus on £20 p.a. membership. And we have digital projector, wireless mic, and the other stuff needed to make the club work.

One thing that will help traditional clubs continue is continuity. Committees running clubs need to change around every few years, with new people coming in with new ideas - this is what keeps clubs alive.

And many clubs are embracing new communication media too - take for example Newbury AS's twitter campaign.

Where a group has a single main instigator, what happens when they lose interest, or get tired of running it, or get run over by a bus....

Of course internet groups (like SGL and Hantsasto) definately have a role to play, But i think this should be a pluraility, its not really an either or. People will want to get together and meet up - face to face. Humans are social animals.

Regarding locating observing sites, could i suggest seeking out local village cricket clubs - they will normally have car park & pavillion where you might be able to meet. And they are not used much in winter (at least for cricket), so might appreciate some nominal income. Of course they would not be keen on you observing from the square.

/callump

I fully agree with everything you say callump though you appear to see things only from a structured viewpoint. HantsAstro was set up as a steeping stone into astronomy and still is. No barriers to entry other than age. There are big downsides to the 'Edwardian' Group model. It is acutally can be run by one or two 'characters' that run the group for several years so it can go stale. We are trying to get more clubs to adopt some of the elements of what we do, especially in the wy they market, promote and engage. We don't do talks, because of cost and content. It why newbies don't get involved. We run Telescope Amnesties and Clinics with great success. Since we started, several other groups have started to do some of what we do. I'm not claiming we 'invented' this. I think it a sign of the times.

Our 'FutureGroup' Model means we cannot sit on out hands, automatically attract a broad spectrum of astronomers, and we have be active. We have no armchairs. Our Magazine covers the nights when it's cloudy. Members apply worldwide, often just a sign of support.

People bring heir telescopes along to events we run or are involved in. In our first year we have 165 members. It's still growing. I can't and don't run a group of this size single handedly. We have a CoreTeam. The only issue is that of volunteers, which is the same for any group. I'm like Bill Gates - get blamed for Windows... I only started it! The MoonFest and some of the things we have done are all my ideas. We have a great team who want to get on and do things.

Continuity? We are now entering our second year financially stronger and now have 4 observing sites in Hampshire with options on others. We are planning a CoreTeam training programme, and waiver any site pass costs. This will help trickle down better expertise. The site passes cover PLI and Volunteer insurance and any site fees. Most FAS groups just have PLI, 'Volunteers' aren't covered. It's another sign of the times. Liability. Some sites are still very much free, but the money has to come from somewhere.

Look Up! e-Zine is downloaded in over 50 countries and read by over 4500 people per month. It will take another few years for revenue to mature, as we started from scratch. Not all groups can manage a publication like this, so the site passes also exist to showcase what can be done. Some of this revenue also goes to charity. One good turn deserves another. HantsAstro is a Showcase Group in many respects. We are descibed as an Internet based group but meet up to three times a month, and run or attend public outreach events. Nothing virtual about that!

Very few traditional groups are as active. People want to use their telescopes and learn to use them. Not some 25-40 year old leviathan that requires constant tinkering. All our 8 telescopes are off the shelf and covers all scopes from 3" to 10", stuff people can relate to, stuff you can actually buy without a degree in Engineering.

Liked you comment about buses... Now, I always look both ways when crossing the road :-)

The average age of our membership is now 33 ( we only have 4 under 21) UK Astronomy Groups are about 57 (according to BBC Sky@Night Magazine). It needs to be lower, but 8 year old kids won't keep astronomy Groups growing. Could you imagine the Committee!!!

Our model mostly works and it is still in progress. But I believe unless traditional groups change, they will decay over time which is why I wanted a different group, one to inject something new to the arena.

There is a lot of skill out there, but largely untapped even within existing Groups. I'd love to write some stuff for FAS and the BAA, but have been turned down...Pity. Both could do with some new ideas to actively help the entire astronomy scene, Diversity is healthy.

We are here to compliment existing astronomy groups not replace them. We had massive resistance to this new form in the first year, but it is now softening. We have several committee members from other Groups who draw upon our experience, and why not? We'll help anyone (and have) who wants to start a new astronomy group.

Sharing knowledge is always a great thing.

So is positive change.

Dave Woods

Founder

HantsAstro

[callump]

Hi Dave,

I don't think i disagree much with anything you have to say.

I suppose my perspective comes more from the "scientific society" ethos, but then I am (was) a scientist - physicist in fact. So on the one hand I do like to observe, but I also like to understand more about what I am observing - how do stars work, how do galaxies work, why do planetary nebula appear so different, and a host of other questions.

So from an astro society, I am looking for more than a group of observers, I am also looking to find people who can help understand the answers to those questions too. And this is where the traditional society lecture fits in.

Of course to the novice this can be hard, especially if they have little science background, but in a good society there will be a blend of talks, to suit all abilities.

So if we are talking about science education, encouraging observing is a good place to start, but without filling in with the meat of the hows and whys, the hobby becomes little more than train spotting or stamp collecting.

But i am all for diversity and plurality - i won't tell anyone what they should or should not be doing (unless its illegal !). Each to their own.

/callump

[michaelmorris]

Hi Deneb

I would certainly visit other societies and see what they offer.

From my experience of helping run two different voluntary groups over a number of years is that groups go through periods of vitality and doldrums. IMHO there are several reasons for this. It's linked to the drive and commitment that the people organising the group are prepared to put in. Plus groups will inevitably tend towards forming cliches' over time. The knack is to constantly try to get knew blood in to the organising committee and to be able to spot when the group is going through a 'doldrums' period.

At Worcester we went through a doldrums period a couple of years ago as things stagnated because people inevitably moved away from the area. Many committee members quite rightfully had lives outside the society and things drifted a bit. This was reflected in declining membership.

We recognised the trend and have instigated a whole series of initiatives to try to spark new interest. We're turning things around with many more members becoming active in the society. Tie ins with other local groups are planned (amateur radio and photography groups), trips to places of interest, a telescope amnesty, public talks to tie in with IYA Moonwatch weeks and hopefully we've managed to secured a talk by very well known astronomer for next year. Membership appears to have now stabilised and we've just started a new publicity campaign in local libraries with the specific aim of attracting new members. It's a lot of work, but hopefully we'll sow the seeds for a period of growing membership and a healthy vital society for years to come.

On specifics - " Facilities cost more these days and clubs need so much stuff like insurance, LCD projectors, risk assessments, CRB checks etc etc."

We get excellent rates for our two meeting places, the local university and a scout hut.

Insurance - FAS do this at a very reasonable price

LCD projector - apply to the lottery (we did)

risk assessments - if you see the FAS guidance on this it really isn't particularly onerous

CRB checks - our understanding is that it is only needed if children attend that are not accompanied and supervised by their parents. We get negate this by insisting that all children are accompained and supervised by a parent - simples.

Best of luck with the venture.