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Eyepieces - the very least you need.


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Hi,

Without reading the previous 25pages;

My most useful powers and Exit Pupils (EP) is 45X @2.2mm EP

And 135X @.74mm EP

BUT thats using a 4" F/9 apo.

YMWillVary depending upon your systems focal length and ratio.

Build around those, with the next critical pupil you might purchase dependent upon the quality of your sky, its darkness, steadiness and transparency and WHAT you really enjoy observing most!

The other critical factors are your eyes acuity and quality of your scopes figure.

 

I always recommend a quality zoom as the first upgrade as it communicates so much relevant and vital data.

It shows the level of atmosphere stillness, your average seeing frequency.

The powers you enjoy most, and is critically useful as a lunar explorer, mated with 2X Barlow in my case.

 

 

 

Clear and steady skies

 

 

Clear and steady skies

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Hi I've just brought a celestron nexstar 90 gt refractor unfortunately it only came with a standard 8mm ep which I struggle to look through I'm not to familiar on what what kind of eye pieces are recommended for this type of scope I'm looking to spend around £60 for a newish  ep maybe around 15mm or 20mm any help or advice would be great also should I buy a Barlow lense ? 

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  • 2 months later...

13 years on, does the advice here from @The Warthog still hold?

I'm getting back into the hobby after some years of doing very little. Compared to the breakneck pace of "tech", it feels like most of the telescopes and mounts I remember are still around. But eyepieces? Plossls seem way cheaper than I remember, Revelation appear to have ceased to be, Astro Essentials have arrived, and I read people talking about "goldlines" whatever they are.

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13 minutes ago, allworlds said:

13 years on, does the advice here from @The Warthog still hold?

I'm getting back into the hobby after some years of doing very little. Compared to the breakneck pace of "tech", it feels like most of the telescopes and mounts I remember are still around. But eyepieces? Plossls seem way cheaper than I remember, Revelation appear to have ceased to be, Astro Essentials have arrived, and I read people talking about "goldlines" whatever they are.


You will probably get replies from people who know much more about these things, but on plossls - if you really want to spend more, you can (Televue), but there are some very good ones to be had for less (Vixen NPL).

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25 minutes ago, allworlds said:

13 years on, does the advice here from @The Warthog still hold?

I'm getting back into the hobby after some years of doing very little. Compared to the breakneck pace of "tech", it feels like most of the telescopes and mounts I remember are still around. But eyepieces? Plossls seem way cheaper than I remember, Revelation appear to have ceased to be, Astro Essentials have arrived, and I read people talking about "goldlines" whatever they are.

I used the astro essentials 26mm briefly but didn't get on because of eye relief although as far as clarity goes, couldn't fault it. I think the higher powered ones would be fine for ER.

The Vixen plossls are lovely and very much worth the cost. Currently only have a 25mm one. I did have a pair of them for binoviewing but sold one and the binoviewer, doubt I will sell the one I retained. Very easy eyepiece to get along with and no false colour at all. Well worth considering.

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+1 for the Vixen NPLs, at least at longer focal lengths (the eye relief gets a bit tight below the 11 mil). They're sharp and very cheap! 

Their only problem, which they share with other Plossls, is a narrow FOV (50°). People nowadays want a wider view. There are many companies making EPs with 70°+, at a price of course.

'Goldlines' are a cheap Chinese range of EPs under various names which do the job for little money, though I think the NPLs and BST Starguiders are much better.

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7 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

+1 for the Vixen NPLs, at least at longer focal lengths (the eye relief gets a bit tight below the 11 mil). They're sharp and very cheap! 

Their only problem, which they share with other Plossls, is a narrow FOV (50°). People nowadays want a wider view. There are many companies making EPs with 70°+, at a price of course.

'Goldlines' are a cheap Chinese range of EPs under various names which do the job for little money, though I think the NPLs and BST Starguiders are much better.

As per my learned friend and expanding on my earlier post. If you are on a budget, you really can't go wrong if your stock range of glass is drawn from these eyepieces although it does depend upon your intended use.

That said, one must also give consideration to the appropriateness of a zoom/barlow combination.  

Again, it depends on your own personal aim! 

 

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A word of warning, though. All the EPs so far mentioned have been comparatively cheap (but good). Once you've looked through a good-quality wide FOV EP, like a Baader Morpheus, an ES 82 / 100°, a Pentax XW or some of the Televue range, you'll be hooked. It's then a very slippery slope and your bank balance will suffer.....

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On 04/10/2022 at 23:12, cajen2 said:

A word of warning, though. All the EPs so far mentioned have been comparatively cheap (but good). Once you've looked through a good-quality wide FOV EP, like a Baader Morpheus, an ES 82 / 100°, a Pentax XW or some of the Televue range, you'll be hooked. It's then a very slippery slope and your bank balance will suffer.....

I would agree. You don’t know what you’re missing until you see it and experience a wide eye piece. Going back to a 45 degree FOV after a 68 or 82 is like looking down a straw. Less an issue if your mount tracks but still intrusive. I used to think wide pieces were an unnecessary luxury but since trying them I have been converted. 
A zoom is nice for mixed seeing conditions where you can feel for the limit of seeing and of course for looking at the moon. 

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  • 9 months later...

I will share my experience with the category of the *very least you need*. 

A friend just got a 10" DOB. It came with a 9x50 optical finder, 25mm Super Plossl and a 10mm one. He spent few nights with it with his son.. and didn't manage to find a single DSO. Zero. Now we can discuss about reasons such as theory, preparation, skill gained in time etc. Or we can solve the problem with a 100$ purchase.

So the *very least I personally need* when going anywhere with my DOB (because it is just extremely comfortable) is two things:

1) A 32mm or 40mm 2" 70 Degree eyepiece. Orion Q70 or my clone Angel Eyes

2) Instead of the optical finder, an RDF or even better yet a combo laser.

3) Some kind of a ~2-3mm exit pupil 68 AFOV eyepiece. My personal favorite is the Orion Expanse 15mm clone - 68 degree AFOV.

Once he got both of these installed, he managed to find 10 Messier objects in about 2 hours. We were observing side by side.

I wouldn't categorize the premium eyepieces in this category (very least you need) though.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 29/05/2009 at 04:52, The Warthog said:

I have considered the question of what a person needs in his eyepiece kit, as a bare minimum, for quite a while. Personally, I don't have a lot of disposable income, and I recognize that a lot of amateur astronomers are getting along on a shoestring budget. So, if you can afford to go out and buy a full set of Naglers, or even Radians, go ahead, this article isn't for you. It is for those of us who have to choose between a new eyepiece and a new spring jacket, and are already garnering disapproving looks from our partners for buying that natty little refractor at a higher price than they really, truly expected.

I will talk first about scopes on equatorial or tracking mounts, and later about Dobsonians.

I am assuming that, as we don't have a lot of money, we are not buying large catadioptics or refractors, and cannot afford a Newtonian of larger than 8". These general principles apply to most scopes, however.

SCOPES ON EQUATORIAL, GOTO, OR TRACKING MOUNTS

I am going to talk about Plossls, mostly, as they are the best value for money. If you get a branded Plossl, you will seldom get a piece of junk. You can expect reasonable sharpness across most of the field in all but the fastest scopes. Plossls also have a field of view of 50 - 52º, which is quite reasonable. I am also going to suggest a set of three or four eyepieces, and no Barlow,except in the case of a fast scope.

You should have a high power, a medium-high and/or medium-low power eyepiece, and a low power eyepiece. The eyepieces that came with your scope probably fill the medium-high and low power slot. If they are satisfactory, keep them for now. If they are marked 'H' or 'SR' don't even think about keeping them! If they are marked with a 'K', they are Kellners, which are generally acceptable eyepieces, but a little limited on field of view, being about 45º, usually.

Find out the focal ratio of your scope. It should be printed on a plate on the scope, usually near the focuser, and be represented by a number like f/5 or f/8. F/6 or lower is a fast scope, and f/7 or higher is an intermediate to slow scope. Scopes with focal ratios of f/8 or higher are generally more forgiving of lower-quality eyepieces, while fast scopes tend to reward lower-quality eyepieces with fuzzy stars anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 way from the edge to the centre.

If you can't find the focal ratio, but you know the aperture and focal length, the focal ratio is (focal length/aperture).

Take your focal ratio, and multiply it by 3/4. So, if you have an f/8 scope, the result is 6. If you have an f/10 scope, the result is 7.5. This result is the length in millimetres of your high power eyepiece. It will give about 2/3 of the theoretical maximum power of your scope. This is the actual maximum if you do not always enjoy perfect seeing and transparency. If you have a 100mm scope, this eyepiece will give 133x.

IF YOU HAVE A FAST SCOPE, say, f/5, this formula will suggest a 3.75mm or 4mm eyepiece. Looking through a Plossl at this length is a miserable experience. If this is the case, I would suggest you buy an eyepiece with a length equal to 1½ times your focal ratio, and buy a 2x Barlow lens in the same price range as your eps. These purchases give you your high power and medium-high power magnifications, so skip the next paragraph.

Now multiply your focal ratio by 1¼. For our f/8 scope, the result is 10, and for an f/10 scope, the result is 12.5. This is the length of your medium-high power eyepiece. For our 100mm scope, it gives a magnification of 80. Eyepieces in these lengths are not hard to find, and you can go up or down a millimetre if your dealer doesn't stock them.

Multiply your focal ratio by 2, now. By now, you can do the math yourself! In our 100mm scope, this gives a magnification of 50. This is your medium-low power eyepiece, and your low power eyepiece is given by multiplying your focal ratio by 3, and you get a magnification of 33 in your 100mm scope. IF YOU HAVE A FAST SCOPE, you want an eyepiece of 3 to 4 times your focal ratio, or 15 to 20 mm for an f/5 scope as your medium-low power eyepiece, and about 5 times your focal ratio for your low power eyepiece.

An eyepiece of 5 times your focal ratio also gives you an 'exit pupil' of 5mm. This is the longest eyepiece you want to use if you are older, as this exit pupil is approximately equal to an older (45+) person's maximum pupillary dilation. You can't use more light than that. If you are younger, you could go up to 7 times your focal ratio, or an exit pupil of 7mm.

To summarize, for an f/8 scope, we suggest a kit consisting of 6, 10, 16 and 24mm. For an f/10 scope, 7.5, 12.5, 20 and 30mm. For an f/5 scope, 2x Barlow, 8, 18, and 25mm.

If your budget allows for only three eyepieces, drop one of the medium power eyepieces. If you are a lunar/planetary observer, then we would suggest dropping the medium-low eyepiece, and if you are a DSO observer, the medium-high eyepiece. In the latter case, we could suggest dropping the high power, but let's face it, there will always be times you want to get a good look at Saturn, or a good planetary nebula, so keep the high power.

DOBSONIANS

Dobsonians tend to be large, fast scopes. If your Dob is 6" or less, you can safely follow the guidelines for the scopes listed above, as the highest magnification this will give you is 200.

At about 200x, it gets hard to follow things with a Dob. Some people can do it, and your ability to follow objects will improve with time, but 200x is a good start. You will want to have an eyepiece kit between 200x, and a 5mm (or 7mm if you are a youngster) exit pupil. Suppose you have a 10", f/5 Dob. You will have a focal length of 1250mm, and will get 200x with a 6.25mm eyepiece. In practical terms, a 6.5 to 7.5mm eyepiece will be what you will find available. To get a 5mm exit pupil out of a 250mm mirror, you will need an eyepiece that gives you 50x. This means a 25mm eyepiece. To get a 7mm exit pupil out of the same mirror means a magnification of 36, and a 35mm eyepiece.

Having decided on your low and high power, it is fairly easy to pick two more eyepiece focal lengths that will fill in the gap. If your spread is 6mm to 25mm, try 10mm and 16mm as your intermediate lengths. If the spread is 6mm to 35mm, then use 12mm and 20mm as your intermediate eyepieces.

So, for an 8" f/5 Dob, you would be getting something like a 5mm, 10, 16 and 25mm.

These guidelines will give you a useful set of eyepieces without breaking the bank. You can buy one eyepiece a month until you have your set, and use the eyeieces you have until your set is complete.If you can afford slightly better eyepieces, then buy those, with the length guidelines still in mind. If you have a fast scope, ask specifically if the eyepiece you are considering is appropriate for a fast scope. Some less expensive wide-angle eyepieces perform well only in a f/8 or slower scope, and you don't want to buy a set of these with a fast scope.

Best wishes, and enjoy your new hobby!

@The Warthog Fantastic bit of writing. I would suggest this as essential reading for any newbie or not so newbie who likes to refresh their memory and fill out any blanks in their understanding of the hobby. Brilliant!

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  • 1 month later...

I still use this basic formula as a guideline for any new scope or EP purchase - after all, although the glass might get a bit better, physics doesn't change and the basic optical designs also remain the same. 

@The Warthog's original post is still relevant 14 years later!

I would recommend anyone who has asked questions about which focal lengths etc. to purchase to read the very first post, if they haven't already 🙂

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On 29/05/2009 at 04:52, The Warthog said:

Take your focal ratio, and multiply it by 3/4. So, if you have an f/8 scope, the result is 6. If you have an f/10 scope, the result is 7.5. This result is the length in millimetres of your high power eyepiece. It will give about 2/3 of the theoretical maximum power of your scope. This is the actual maximum if you do not always enjoy perfect seeing and transparency. If you have a 100mm scope, this eyepiece will give 133x.

This is the only thing I'd advise caution about. My 100m scope works best on planets with either a 4mm (x185) or 3.3mm (x224) eyepiece - x133 would be underpowered.

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9 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

This is the only thing I'd advise caution about. My 100m scope works best on planets with either a 4mm (x185) or 3.3mm (x224) eyepiece - x133 would be underpowered.

Agreed, I also find planetary views best at ~200x. Perhaps "Planetary eyepiece" is an additional selection to be added at maybe 0.5x FR of the scope, but I suspect a bit more judgement is needed as to whether that will work for all scopes. 

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For me, with the 12", it depends on the target. Jupiter / Saturn x211; Mars x304; Moon x461. This is why planetary observers tend to have more short focal length eye pieces and / or Barlows or Powermates. Also more specialised eyepieces. I can get x217 with my 7mm eyepieces, but the 18mm ortho and x2.5 Powermate combination (x211) brings out more detail on Jupiter for example.

This guide is a great start, but more experienced observers will up the ante a little and be more specialised.

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45 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

For me, with the 12", it depends on the target. Jupiter / Saturn x211; Mars x304; Moon x461. This is why planetary observers tend to have more short focal length eye pieces and / or Barlows or Powermates. Also more specialised eyepieces. I can get x217 with my 7mm eyepieces, but the 18mm ortho and x2.5 Powermate combination (x211) brings out more detail on Jupiter for example.

This guide is a great start, but more experienced observers will up the ante a little and be more specialised.

Yes, exactly. As you say, I think the guide was always intended as a starting point and on a budget for those struggling with focal length requirements.

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  • 1 month later...

I have an 8-inch Celestron Next Star Evolution with the Star Sense Auto Align.  This thing works amazingly well.  In my current back yard, I have quite a few streetlights and tree blockage. I have been experimenting and viewing the bright stars and Saturn, Jupiter and Neptune.  Neptune is not much to see as it was closer to the horizon and it being so far away.  It was almost a full moon last night and it was beautiful to look at, bad to try and find other objects. My question is, will I be able to see some of the messier objects. I tried to find a few last night, I was either doing something wrong or too much night light, or wrong set-up.  I could not find the Crab Nebula, the Dumbbell Nebula, the Orion Nebula, or the Bodes Nebula.  I have a few eye pieces that I have gotten from my dad and some I received when I purchased my scope. Here is what I have

1) Svbony  SWA 26 MM FOV 30-degree -2 inch 

2)  LVW22 MM long eye relief multi coated 65 -degree -1.25 and 2 inch

3) Svbony 34 MM Ultra Wide Angle 72-degree HD fully coated 2-Inch

4) Astro -Tech 28 MM UWA 82-degree 2-inch

4) Sirius Plossl Japan, 9 MM, 10 MM, 17 MM, 25 MM, 26 MM -1.25 inch

5) K 40 MM E.F.W.- 1.25 inch

6) Meade multi coated 15.5 MM -1.25 inch

7) Meade multi coated OR9 mm- 1.25 inch

😎Tele Vue 19 MM wide field - 1.25 inch

9)  Meade super plossl 6.4 MM multi coated  - 1.25 inch

10) Meade super wide angle 18 MM multi coated - 1.25 inch

11) Meade 2x Telenegative Amplifier Air Space Triplet multi Coated Model 140 

12) Orion Shorty Barlow lens - 1.25 inch

 

I feel I should be able to see a few Nebulae with my scope. Maybe there is too much light pollution. My scope works well for planets, the moon, bright stars, but I think the F number is too high for deep sky deep sky observing. Am I correct or am I wrong.

 

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I have a Nexstar 8SE, and have observed several Messier objects in the last few months. I live in a borderline Bortle 3-4 area. In the winter, transparency isn't real great even with clear skies. We live in a valley and wood heat is a primary heat source for a significant number of homes in the area. This means there is often a barely visible layer of smoke.

I can't speak to how much your light pollution affects you, but a bright moon definitely will limit the faint objects visible. Of the nebula  you mention, the only one I haven't observed is the Crab Nebula. The others show up fine when there isn't too much moon. Something bright like M13 might show up, but not any of those you mentioned. I have the stock Celestron 25mm eyepiece and the Celestron eyepiece kit which included a 32mm plossel.

It seems the only negative effect of the longer focal length is not being able to fit some of the larger targets into a single FOV.  

Clear skies!

3 hours ago, Machinetools1 said:

 

3 hours ago, Machinetools1 said:

I have an 8-inch Celestron Next Star Evolution with the Star Sense Auto Align.  This thing works amazingly well.  In my current back yard, I have quite a few streetlights and tree blockage. I have been experimenting and viewing the bright stars and Saturn, Jupiter and Neptune.  Neptune is not much to see as it was closer to the horizon and it being so far away.  It was almost a full moon last night and it was beautiful to look at, bad to try and find other objects. My question is, will I be able to see some of the messier objects. I tried to find a few last night, I was either doing something wrong or too much night light, or wrong set-up.  I could not find the Crab Nebula, the Dumbbell Nebula, the Orion Nebula, or the Bodes Nebula.  I have a few eye pieces that I have gotten from my dad and some I received when I purchased my scope. Here is what I have

1) Svbony  SWA 26 MM FOV 30-degree -2 inch 

2)  LVW22 MM long eye relief multi coated 65 -degree -1.25 and 2 inch

3) Svbony 34 MM Ultra Wide Angle 72-degree HD fully coated 2-Inch

4) Astro -Tech 28 MM UWA 82-degree 2-inch

4) Sirius Plossl Japan, 9 MM, 10 MM, 17 MM, 25 MM, 26 MM -1.25 inch

5) K 40 MM E.F.W.- 1.25 inch

6) Meade multi coated 15.5 MM -1.25 inch

7) Meade multi coated OR9 mm- 1.25 inch

😎Tele Vue 19 MM wide field - 1.25 inch

9)  Meade super plossl 6.4 MM multi coated  - 1.25 inch

10) Meade super wide angle 18 MM multi coated - 1.25 inch

11) Meade 2x Telenegative Amplifier Air Space Triplet multi Coated Model 140 

12) Orion Shorty Barlow lens - 1.25 inch

 

I feel I should be able to see a few Nebulae with my scope. Maybe there is too much light pollution. My scope works well for planets, the moon, bright stars, but I think the F number is too high for deep sky deep sky observing. Am I correct or am I wrong.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Machinetools1 said:

I have an 8-inch Celestron Next Star Evolution with the Star Sense Auto Align.  This thing works amazingly well.  In my current back yard, I have quite a few streetlights and tree blockage. I have been experimenting and viewing the bright stars and Saturn, Jupiter and Neptune.  Neptune is not much to see as it was closer to the horizon and it being so far away.  It was almost a full moon last night and it was beautiful to look at, bad to try and find other objects. My question is, will I be able to see some of the messier objects. I tried to find a few last night, I was either doing something wrong or too much night light, or wrong set-up.  I could not find the Crab Nebula, the Dumbbell Nebula, the Orion Nebula, or the Bodes Nebula.  I have a few eye pieces that I have gotten from my dad and some I received when I purchased my scope. Here is what I have

1) Svbony  SWA 26 MM FOV 30-degree -2 inch 

2)  LVW22 MM long eye relief multi coated 65 -degree -1.25 and 2 inch

3) Svbony 34 MM Ultra Wide Angle 72-degree HD fully coated 2-Inch

4) Astro -Tech 28 MM UWA 82-degree 2-inch

4) Sirius Plossl Japan, 9 MM, 10 MM, 17 MM, 25 MM, 26 MM -1.25 inch

5) K 40 MM E.F.W.- 1.25 inch

6) Meade multi coated 15.5 MM -1.25 inch

7) Meade multi coated OR9 mm- 1.25 inch

😎Tele Vue 19 MM wide field - 1.25 inch

9)  Meade super plossl 6.4 MM multi coated  - 1.25 inch

10) Meade super wide angle 18 MM multi coated - 1.25 inch

11) Meade 2x Telenegative Amplifier Air Space Triplet multi Coated Model 140 

12) Orion Shorty Barlow lens - 1.25 inch

 

I feel I should be able to see a few Nebulae with my scope. Maybe there is too much light pollution. My scope works well for planets, the moon, bright stars, but I think the F number is too high for deep sky deep sky observing. Am I correct or am I wrong.

 

Might be worth starting another thread to get some more answers but I would say you should definitely be able to see most of those except the Crab which needs darker skies. The Orion Nebula is visible pretty much anywhere although obviously much better from dark skies still.

Were you using a low power eyepiece to make sure you had it in the field of view? Were you relying on Goto, and was it accurate? Do you have a properly aligned optical finder and could you see them in there, or at least verify you were in the right place?

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Thanks for all the reply's. For the lens,  I was using the Svbony 34 MM Ultra Wide Angle 72-degree HD fully coated 2-Inch. I was relying on the Goto with Starsense and my phone. It seems very accurate.  I panned on Neptune, Saturn, Vega, the moon, cannot miss that, Sirius, Capela, Rigel and Betelgeuse.  The Goto seemed to work well.  I rely too much on the electronic system as of now.  My goal is to star hop once I get familiar with the night sky's.  My scope came with the stock red light laser. I had aligned it when I got my scope. I never used it to find what I was looking for as the Goto system always placed me there.  I will check the laser finder when I have the scope out again.  I also joined a local Astronomy club. I am very much looking forward to this. Its cloudy tonight and it appears there might be some rain in the forecast, so I will be checking that out the next time. Is there a better spotting scope a person could recommend?

Edited by Machinetools1
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1 minute ago, Machinetools1 said:

Thanks for all the reply's. For the lens,  I was using the Svbony 34 MM Ultra Wide Angle 72-degree HD fully coated 2-Inch. I was relying on the Goto with Starsense and my phone. It seems very accurate.  I panned on Neptune, Saturn, Vega, the moon, cannot miss that, Sirius, Capela, Rigel and Betelgeuse.  The Goto seemed to work well.  I rely too much on the electronic system as of now.  My goal is to star hop once I get familiar with the night sky's.  My scope came with the stock red light laser. I had aligned it when I got my scope. I never used it to find what I was looking for as the Goto system always placed me there.  I will check the laser finder when I have the scope out again.  Its cloudy tonight and it appears there might be some rain in the forecast, so I will be checking that out the next time. Is there a better spotting scope a person could recommend?

Your F ratio is to large for serious deep sky viewing. You would get much better result by using a reducer to improve your light gather power and thus exit pupil. 

Generally you should try to get an eyepiece offering 5mm exit pupil for nebula, although FYI bodes nebula is a galaxy. 

I know celestron do an f6.3 reducer but not sure if compatible to your scope. If it was then combined using that with a circa 31mm eyepiece would be perfect. 

A uhc filter would also be a massive boost. 

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A 0.63x reducer is a good idea for the larger targets but you should still be able to view quite a few of the messier objects without one. M27, M57, M13,  M42,  and M81 & 82 being some of the easiest ones. Globular clusters are relatively easy to spot as well as the open clusters. Try and get your eyes as dark adapted as possible and if you have external light sources beyond your control then a large black piece of cloth draped over your head at the eyepiece helps a good deal. A 9x 50 RACI is a good finder scope used in conjunction with your RDF. Happy hunting.

Edited by bosun21
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The light at my house is most likely like everyone else.  I could be at  darker sky's in about 25 minutes.  I have been putting it off as I wanted more experience with using my scope. and it is easy in the back yard.  I have been trying to get a grasp of the starry skies, man there is a lot out there and trying to find and remember where the items are is tough.  I have a couple of  star pinwheels and just trying to wrap my head around the vastness. I think I will get a better finders scope. I guess use it as you stated with the RDF.  Thanks for the tips.

Edited by Machinetools1
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