A very, very basic question

[dc150]

Probably best to start the story at the very beginning. A few years ago i got the SA Adventurer Pro mount for tracking. Using a DSLR I got results I was happy with for the common galaxies and nebulae. But  at 75 with bad eyesight I had trouble locating some of the targets. So I decided the next step would be a go to mount so i got the well reviewed GTi Eq version. After a big learning curve I am near enough there with GS Server, Ascom etc and more or less happy with my DSLR on it. The next step could be where I have made a big mistake!? I thought a telescope might produce some better results and after a lot of research I decided on the  SW 130PDS. I have never owned a telescope before. This was based on reading reviews, looking at maximum weights for different scopes for this mount and what was possible in terms of imaging. I'm sure I saw some results with this scope and this mount. The weight of the OTA for the 130 is about 4kg and i only intend to use an eyepiece to view or a light Canon Mirrorless camera to image, at least to start with. (SW liad says 5kg) I  should add I'm not trying to match the pros and would be happy with one minute subs and half decent round stars.
SO the problem I've got is that having read many articles and watched many instructional videos I can't get the 130 to balance, or at least I don't think I can. In the horizontal postion of the saddle I can more or less get it to return back to horizontal from about 20 degrees dip on either side with the dec clutch released but if it goes past 45 degrees either way then the leverage just tips it unless I put a bit of friction on the dec clutch when it will stay in any position. RA and counterweights is the same but once past a certain point on either side it tips sharply in that direction whilst balanced at horizontal. I think a bit more counterweight wwould help but it's hard to see how it wouldn't tip with that large amount of leverage and overhang at each end when both clutches are fully off. WIth some friction it stays in any position. Is this normal or am i missing something?

[Elp]

If the mounts anything like the azgtis I had some friction is your friend for balancing, you should try a larger smoother mount where fractional mm differences in counter weight position makes huge balance changes.

I think your issue is the scope is too large for that mount, it's also a medium focal length which makes getting good stars even harder especially if you're not autoguiding. You should never max out the payload of your mount, it should be around 1/2 to 2/3 max typically. Success also depends on the sturdiness of the tripod being used.

The scope will work okay for visual on that mount, just imaging reliably will present issues especially if the aim is for DSO targets.

Edited Thursday at 15:40 by Elp

[woldsman]

Have you tried rotating the telescope in the tube rings? Apologies for this basic suggestion but it’s not an obvious thing to do if this is your first experience of using a reflector. 

[dc150]

I think the reality is that I have tried to do this incrementally from what I have had and this telescope is probably too big for the mount.  The idea in my head was that I could get better images than with my DSLR. It is not my main photographic hobby and I am just going to operate from my kitchen in my driveway on the odd clear night we get in the UK. I realise that it can be solved by spending a lot of money but if the current situation is totally untenable I will sell up. I think that researching everything and taking advice from forums was risky. you tend to not find the specific drawbacks till you encounter them and can then ask the right question.  For example I knew the mount was important but I wrongly assumed that it would still work with any telescope within the payload range and I had read that you can go above this at the expense of accurate tracking. To me £500 for a mount wasn't a budget price!
Back to the original balancing question.  This is just to understand the theory. It balances at the mid point in Dec and RA but like I said once past about 30 degrees on either side it will carry on Less than 30 degrees it returns to base so to speak. If I just slightly tighten the clutches it will stay in any position but not if they are fully lose. DOes this mean it is badly unbalanced or not? Also if i tried it like this will it damage the mount, bearing in mind it is not over the payload? 
I've attached a couple of shots with my camera alone. Should I completely quit the telescope idea with what I have?

[michael8554]

1. Are you happy with the RA balance using the counterweight ?

2.  The camera is adding weight at an angle, so will affect balance at some positions of RA and Dec.

3. Is this lack of balance affecting your images ?

In RA or in Dec or in both ?

Perfect Balance is rarely achieved.

Michael

[dc150]

Thank you Michael. The balance is not perfect after returning  to the "home" position (i.e with OTA only pointing to polaris). It is reasonable at the horizontal positon for both dec and RA but what I am not understanding is when I watch videos on it they seem to stay in any position after and not swing down either side when lowered below say 30 degrees. This is with nothing on the OTA, just the tube and empty eyepiece holder. It will if stay if I add a bit of friction to the clutches though. Is it safe to try it like this as I haven't powered it up yet as I didn't want to damage the mount?

 

Edited Friday at 12:42 by dc150
duplicate post

[michael8554]

I don't see the point of balancing without all the equipment on it.

Again, how is it affecting your images ?

Michael

[Martyn87]

On 09/01/2025 at 16:37, woldsman said:

Have you tried rotating the telescope in the tube rings? Apologies for this basic suggestion but it’s not an obvious thing to do if this is your first experience of using a reflector. 

This. Newts are horrible to balance in EQ mounts if you have the camera on one side as you would for visual. Mine is almost perfectly pointed down, with only slight adjustments to counteract the weight on one side of the auto focusers, cables etc. It makes a huge difference to the ability to balance correctly. It could also be that you don't have enough length on your dovetail bar to adjust it to a position where you can get good balance. 

If its returning back to this position by itself with the clutches unlocked, I'd suggest the scope needs to move forward on the mount to move some weight around. 

Edited Friday at 17:42 by Martyn87

[Elp]

You can acquire small weights to rebalance, some people have mentioned ankle weights or even better, magnetic weights.

[dc150]

2 hours ago, michael8554 said:

I don't see the point of balancing without all the equipment on it.

Again, how is it affecting your images ?

Michael

Just trying to see if it is even possible because if the OTA won't balance then I doubt it would with anything else on it! Like I said, not had a chance to try it for actual imaging yet as wanted to get best balance I could first, hence the questions. I'm not looking for perfect balance, just the best i can get.

[dc150]

It has just occured to me that I read somewhere the term "flip" .I have gone some sort of balance now but when the RA gets really low with clutches released, like pointing at north horizon, it dramatically swings right round the other way. Is this the "flip" and is that supposed to happen?

[Elp]

4 hours ago, dc150 said:

flip

Meridian flip, your setup will track to almost horizontal, then it needs to move to the opposite side to continue tracking.

When you balance you balance the declination pointing both east and west, then you balance the Ra rotating east and west. For either the scope should hardly move if it has been balanced correctly. You check either the Dec or Ra individually as it makes it easier to rejig.

Edited Friday at 23:27 by Elp

[900SL]

Could you post a photo of your mount in the home position, taken from the side?

[dc150]

Thanks. Will do tomorrow.

[dc150]

On 12/01/2025 at 07:42, 900SL said:

Could you post a photo of your mount in the home position, taken from the side?

 

[TiffsAndAstro]

On 09/01/2025 at 22:53, dc150 said:

I think the reality is that I have tried to do this incrementally from what I have had and this telescope is probably too big for the mount.  The idea in my head was that I could get better images than with my DSLR. It is not my main photographic hobby and I am just going to operate from my kitchen in my driveway on the odd clear night we get in the UK. I realise that it can be solved by spending a lot of money but if the current situation is totally untenable I will sell up. I think that researching everything and taking advice from forums was risky. you tend to not find the specific drawbacks till you encounter them and can then ask the right question.  For example I knew the mount was important but I wrongly assumed that it would still work with any telescope within the payload range and I had read that you can go above this at the expense of accurate tracking. To me £500 for a mount wasn't a budget price!
Back to the original balancing question.  This is just to understand the theory. It balances at the mid point in Dec and RA but like I said once past about 30 degrees on either side it will carry on Less than 30 degrees it returns to base so to speak. If I just slightly tighten the clutches it will stay in any position but not if they are fully lose. DOes this mean it is badly unbalanced or not? Also if i tried it like this will it damage the mount, bearing in mind it is not over the payload? 
I've attached a couple of shots with my camera alone. Should I completely quit the telescope idea with what I have?

Quit? These images show you have all the basics right but stuff needs some little tweaks.

I have a GTi with about 4kg on it and it did pretty well. You're definitely pushing that 5kg limit, but it's not impossible it can work.

You'll need good balance in both axis as others have said. Watch some videos on balancing newts. Also hanging the camera down might help with that and as a free part counter weigh.

Love your Jupiter image in particular, I'm jealous. 

[TiffsAndAstro]

On 10/01/2025 at 16:42, michael8554 said:

I don't see the point of balancing without all the equipment on it.

Again, how is it affecting your images ?

Michael

Even my lens cap being on/off effects my balance

[dc150]

4 hours ago, TiffsAndAstro said:

Even my lens cap being on/off effects my balance

Again - haven't got any yet. Not going to try till I have set it up properly or at least as well as I can. I am getting nearer to balance now with extra counterweight.

[dc150]

4 hours ago, TiffsAndAstro said:

Quit? These images show you have all the basics right but stuff needs some little tweaks.

I have a GTi with about 4kg on it and it did pretty well. You're definitely pushing that 5kg limit, but it's not impossible it can work.

You'll need good balance in both axis as others have said. Watch some videos on balancing newts. Also hanging the camera down might help with that and as a free part counter weigh.

Love your Jupiter image in particular, I'm jealous. 

Thanks for the encouragement. The jupiter image was just with my mirrorless Canon R7. 600mm F11 lens, 1.4 TC and cropped 4kvideo mode for 1 minute at 50fps. whilst tracked on my old SA Pro. Then stacking with  25% best frames and a bit more processing.  This was about a month ago. Anyway weight with the camera is about 4.8Kg. Can now balance in dec ok but need a bit more counterweight to get RA right but I pretty much got it by increasing counterweight a bit more with a temporary addition. Hopefully getting something more permanent rigged up in the next couple of days. Unfortunately the dec clutch has suddenly picked up some permanent friction and isn't swinging as freely as it was which makes the accuracy of the balancing harder. Tightens up ok still but am worried something may have happened. Still slews ok. Not checked tracking yet.